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Aoife
-26th October 2003, 20:03
Okay, how can you train/practise for fleches?

Especially newbies who's idea of a fleche they describe as 'that thing where you run at them' (cue winces).

Are there any footwork drills to make a fleche more explosive? Any games to play? One-legged jumps across the room? Jumping back and forth from front to back leg? I once heard 'box-jumps with one leg' - what's a box jump?

I've also heard the term 'plyometrics' when talking about footwork training. What is that?

Would it be a bad idea to get newbies trying horizontal fleches on a big crash mat? (however entertaining it sounds :) )


On a side-note, would anyone recomend a more experianced flecher (yet a not particular good one) using a half-retreat fleche? (where you move the front foot back a little before fleching). I haven't tried it against somebody yet, but having read about it recently, I think it sounds interesting.

Rdb811
-26th October 2003, 20:34
Try the 'Drop the glove' game - fencer a holds out a glove (arm extended at shoulder height), fencer b claps his hands and fencer a drops the glove - fencer b has to catch it - it is possible to do this every time - then try extending the distance between the fencers and using lunges half lunges , flches etc to catch the glove - this includes fleching when moving the foot back.

I certainly wouldn't use the crash mat method.

Have a feeling pylometrics is a bit suspect, but someone more informed will hopefully comment.

Rdb811
-26th October 2003, 20:39
Or jsut finish each exercise with a flache - this allows the caoch to process more stundents. After a while you become fairly good at fleching.

Aoife
-26th October 2003, 20:39
Is that game a bit like the one where Fencer A drops the glove against a wall and Fencer B lunges to stop it?


fencer b claps his hands and fencer a drops the glove - fencer b has to catch it

Is this better than Fencer B having no idea when Fencer A will drop the glove? If so, why?

Rdb811
-26th October 2003, 20:44
Originally posted by Aoife
Is that game a bit like the one where Fencer A drops the glove against a wall and Fencer B lunges to stop it?
I expect so, not haing seen it.



Is this better than Fencer B having no idea when Fencer A will drop the glove? If so, why? [/B]

Yes, as the action is premeditated and there wouldn,t be time to react. The reaction time from hearing is very slow.

fencingmaster
-27th October 2003, 10:47
Ah ha, Roger, giving out my training games eh? If only we could franchise our actions...but this is about sharing!

The glove exercise Roger describes is an exercise for hand speed and co-ordination. Fencer A stands on guard at a distance where they are just out of reach from a glove held at shoulder height by fencer B. Fencer A claps and extends for the glove. Fencer B drops the glove on hearing the clap. Fencer A should be able to catch the glove in place - the speed of the hand is such that the glove should not have time to fall and then be caught. [I prefer this to exercises where fencer B drops a glove and fencer A then goes for it - this latter usually promotes poor technique with the hand falling during the lunge]. Increase the distance slightly and the glove as it is caught is carried forward in a fleche, the glove should not be borne down or across but carried forward and possibly up.


I often teach the fleche from the lunge before teaching the fleche from on guard. In the lunge withdraw the front foot (leaving the arm extended) and power the fleche from the front leg. This enables the fencer to more easliy comes to term with losing balance and discourages overuse of the rear leg.

There are at least 5 variations of footwork to introduce the fleche.

Put simply 'plyometrics' are jumping and rebounding exercises that improve the legs, and are often included in warm-up drills, be careful not to use too many that require bouncing off the toes as the fencer needs to use their heels and flat feet mote than many other sports. Simply plyometric exercise for fencers would include jumping in the on guard position through 90° 180°, many fencing footwork exercise are plyometric in nature e.g.: from onguard, spring jump into lunge, spring jump back to onguard and fleche.

The crash mat idea is nice, I've done it in the past, but with the current litigious culture I have abandonned it - one arm folded and broken under a falling student would be the end of my insurance policy!

ceprab
-27th October 2003, 13:30
Dave in my club demonstrates the crash mat thing without the crash mat. Before he comes here and starts a new 'you aren't safe' thread I want to say that only Dave does this and it is not encouraged.:upset:

Aoife
-27th October 2003, 18:40
Thanks. I'll suggest the gloev game after half-term.

I'll also try out getting people to fleche from the lunge as well- might help several people (having tried it around the room just now, it might help me too!).


There are at least 5 variations of footwork to introduce the fleche.

Which are? :eyerise:




The crash mat idea is nice, I've done it in the past, but with the current litigious culture I have abandonned it - one arm folded and broken under a falling student would be the end of my insurance policy!

Makes sense. Whenever the high-jump crash mat's out all the kids (ahem, clearly not including myself :o ) chuck themselves at it for fun anyway- might be useful to get them(/me) to do it in a productive mannor. :)


Ta very much all!

fencingmaster
-27th October 2003, 22:48
There are at least 5 variations of footwork to introduce the fleche.

Which are?
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you'll have to buy the book!

Rdb811
-28th October 2003, 00:58
We had the lunge / fleche this evening. I dread to think what it'll be like when he puts all five together. :confused:

DrT
-28th October 2003, 11:23
Originally posted by fencingmaster
There are at least 5 variations of footwork to introduce the fleche.

Which are?
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you'll have to buy the book!

Originally posted by fencingmaster on another thread...
Perhaps I do not read the forum enough but I haven’t seen a great many training tips.


Perhaps you should offer some more tips here - if they're good we might be tempted to buy the book!:eyerise:

fencingmaster
-28th October 2003, 13:46
----Perhaps you should offer some more tips here - if they're good we might be tempted to buy the book---

Training/teaching assistance given out so far…

At foil: strategy against flick attacks
At sabre: use of half or feint parries in place of a counter-attack
Fleche: hand speed exercise
Fleche: actions from the lunge
Kids: use coloured marker on coaches foil blade
Other: Syer & Connelly for mental training and preparation
Other: Rex Haxeldine for fitness
Other: web link to ‘design you own sport specific fitness plan’
Footwork : drills and breaking distance
Timing: an analysis by Zbigniew Czajkowski

Enough for now?

tigger
-28th October 2003, 14:29
No! Any cunning tips on teaching flunging in sabre? Not recommended by many coaches I know, but hey if it's good enough for Covaliu, Kothny, J Williams et al it's good enough for me...

fencingmaster
-30th October 2003, 10:11
The 'flunge' usually happens quite spontaneously at my clubs. Older sabreurs are better at it because they commence fleche, simultaneously realise it's a 'no no' and (usually with a curse) complete the attack with an action similar to that of the hopping movement of a shot putter. However I wouldn't recommend taking up shot putting to improve fencing!

Not recommending it, but if you seriously want to, try to adapt the plyometric exrecise from earlier finishing with a lunge having thrown the weight forward.

As they say on the stage "break a leg"

tigger
-31st October 2003, 09:00
I use it all the time personally, but always have trouble teaching it. I'll try the lunge method and see if it helps!

fencingmaster
-31st October 2003, 10:51
Another teaching trick..
Place a piece of coloured tape on the pupils foil guard at about 11 o'clock (right hander). Coach places his blade (horizontally) just touching the tape on the guard. The pupil then manipulates the blade in a circle around the edge of the guard (circular sixte) returning the blade to the tape. Improves fingerplay, reduces arm action and controls the finish of the final action (less than 360° the pupil is not covered, more than 360° the exposes the lower target). Useful for kinesthetic feedback. It is in fact an envelopment - the student doesn't need to know this. Also, a good example of how an 'out-pf-date' action is still useful as a teaching aid.

The action can be developped to add a hit with a thrown or flick hit delivered en fleche as the coach is moving back.

Aoife
-3rd November 2003, 12:40
Also, a good example of how an 'out-of-date' action is still useful as a teaching aid.

Envelopment is an out-of-date action? Really? Wow. I'll have to go tell my out-of-date coach :eyerise:

Tarmac
-3rd November 2003, 13:35
i find the flunge a fantastic move... very useful and initidating also... only problem is waiting the results of the xrays when you land heavily... can really mess up your ankle...:confused:

ceprab
-3rd November 2003, 13:45
I think the quotes are important.

out-of-date = no longer useful

'out-of-date' = no longer fashionable

I find that when I am pressed to do foil a lot of 'out-of-date' things like pointing your sword at your target instead of the ceiling work wonders. :)

The lunge sometimes seems to have suffered in the fashion department as well.

Tarmac
-3rd November 2003, 13:48
never been much of a follower of fashion... if it works - do it...

fencingmaster
-4th November 2003, 09:32
Please note -out of date- was in inverted commas; It is a classic stroke still of use today (the point I was making). My use of that phrase was an aside at postings such as "BAF = stable but 'often out of date' " and "Out of date? - it sort of depends on the coaches." elswehere on this forum.

In my mind the best fencing is a fusion of modern and classic - rather than either following fashion or adherence to a fixed classical style.

tigger
-5th November 2003, 09:25
Don't recall seeing an envelopment used at any level above regional ever! That's not to say that's it's not good finger/blade manipulation exercise to be able to do it, just somewhat impractical in reasonable level competition.

randomsabreur
-5th November 2003, 12:02
I think might have seem Peter Wright on one occasion or another, possibly at the Cole this year. its the sort of awkward think he might do.

Also, the action can be useful against someone who habitually remises although you do lose the blade contact half way, but the hand action is the same

Hopefully this makes sense

ceprab
-6th November 2003, 08:17
From what I recall of my (somewhat distant) time using a foil regularly for an envelopment to be effective your opponent really had to give you their blade. I would be surprised if this got done often by an experienced opponent. Still, given the right, um, lead, the envelopment would still be an appropriate response. (Sorry I seem to be thinking in dancing terms).