PDA

View Full Version : Is This a Black Card Offence?



Barry Paul
-26th October 2003, 21:06
Referee is refereeing a team match makes one obvious error. At the end of the match top official of the Fencing Federation storms on the piste demanding the referees I.D. saying he will never referee at the Olympics.
What should the referee have done?

Australian
-27th October 2003, 03:08
ask him to leave... if he persists then i see no option but a black card

Robert
-27th October 2003, 11:44
Question:

Was the mistake a matter of not seeing something? Or was it a matter of not interpreting the rules correctly?

Robert

Barry Paul
-27th October 2003, 12:12
We all make mistakes, it doesn't matter.

gladiator
-27th October 2003, 12:18
I would say that it was a matter that should be decided afterwards, when off the piste. The official should be more controlled and hold his temper in public. Things like this will only put people off refereeing. As barry said, everyone makes mistakes!

Robert
-27th October 2003, 16:11
Originally posted by Barry Paul
We all make mistakes, it doesn't matter.

I disagree, the nature of the mistake does matter a great deal. If the mistake in question was a matter of what the president saw (ie there was a parry and she didn't see it) then the president wasn't 'wrong' because this is beyond appeal (the rules specify this directly).

If the president got a rule wrong then the official was still out of order but their behaviour was understandable (you Barry, are as guilty as most of ranting about rules interpretations).

The two mistakes are not the same in nature and which it was is important.

Robert

pinkelephant
-27th October 2003, 17:27
The nature of the mistake does NOT matter, as it is not appealable at this time or by this person. If it was a misinterpretation of a rule, it was appealable only at the time it happened, not at the end of the match, and only by the team captain or the fencer involved.

Anybody behaving like this should be red carded immediately, and black carded if they persist.

Jambo
-27th October 2003, 17:41
Possibly a bit naive but... can you red card etc anyone including spectators and competition officials?

Robert
-27th October 2003, 17:55
Originally posted by pinkelephant
The nature of the mistake does NOT matter, as it is not appealable at this time or by this person. If it was a misinterpretation of a rule, it was appealable only at the time it happened, not at the end of the match, and only by the team captain or the fencer involved.

Anybody behaving like this should be red carded immediately, and black carded if they persist.

They should not be red-carded, the rules specify they may be excluded from the tournament if they are disturbing good order (t.83). Also the rules specify that it is only an offence to criticise the president during the bout (t.82), though in this case it sounds like the remarks were out of order regardless.

Also you missed my point: a president making a mistake is quite a minor thing but a president not knowing the rules is more serious. And since there are several people who are prone to the same intemperate language involved in this discussion this should be taken into account. In other words, the context of this is hugely important, and the nature of the mistake is important (t.121 for those not reading the rules).

Lastly, the individual involved does have a right to raise their concern (t.123), but only if it does involve a misunderstanding of the rules (t.122, t.95c), and it should not have been directed to the president but to the DT (t.96e).

In short, the official was out of order but the circumstances are very important.

Robert

Mantis
-27th October 2003, 20:48
Originally posted by Jambo
Possibly a bit naive but... can you red card etc anyone including spectators and competition officials?

Yes, spectators can be carded (but competition officials?). If you look at the table of offences in the rules book there is a section specifically for this indicating a red card for first offence and black card for any subsequent offence.

James
-27th October 2003, 21:14
did the official have a vested interest in the outcome of the bout?
i know that in my mind this wouldnt change the fact that the official was out of order. his concern my have been valid or not, but it wasnt raise in an appropriate manner.

James

Barry Paul
-27th October 2003, 22:15
Otherwise it might seem we were involving the President of the F.I.E., who we all know is very strict in upholding proper behaviour and conduct according to the rules.

3 Card Trick
-28th October 2003, 07:31
"Yes, spectators can be carded (but competition officials?). "

Yes they all can.

Robert
-28th October 2003, 13:41
Originally posted by 3 Card Trick
"Yes, spectators can be carded (but competition officials?). "

Yes they all can.

Not unless my copy of the rules is out of date. I realise 3 Card Trick is better qualified than me to talk on this, but if you check the rules a person on piste disturbing good order (or anyone other than fencer involved in a bout) cannot be carded (p.45, t.82, t.83) but can only be warned or excluded. This is so important the BFA have an ammendment to the rules on their website saying that a fencer can be classed as still in the bout about which they are causing trouble, so they risk the chance of being black carded and the outside-tournament bans that can incur).

So, barring the possibility the rules have been changed noone other than the two fencers on the piste can be black-carded.

Robert

Sorry to Barry, anytime I say president obviously read referee.

Robert
-28th October 2003, 13:46
Originally posted by Mantis
Yes, spectators can be carded (but competition officials?). If you look at the table of offences in the rules book there is a section specifically for this indicating a red card for first offence and black card for any subsequent offence.

Maybe my copy is out of date then but it says Warning then Expulsion on my Schedule of Offences and Penalties.

Robert

3 Card Trick
-28th October 2003, 17:38
O.K you have a point. But the FIE require that a warning or expulsion given to someone not on the piste be signalled by the production of a Red or Black card.

Hope that clarfies things.

Keith.A.Smith
-28th October 2003, 20:57
If anyone disturbs good order by verbally or physically attacking a referee then the referee can award a red or black card. It is his decision and his alone. The DT then decide the full impact of the black card.Competition, championships suspension or forward to FIE for furhter suspension period.

Keith

Marcos
-29th October 2003, 11:35
Originally posted by Barry Paul
Referee is refereeing a team match makes one obvious error. At the end of the match top official of the Fencing Federation storms on the piste demanding the referees I.D. saying he will never referee at the Olympics.
What should the referee have done?

what did the referee do in the end?

realistically, I guess he did nothing - to black card the official would only have increased the embarrasment further, and politics in fencing being as it is, he would never have refereed again!

A word with an intermediary to settle the situation, allowing the official to apologise for the outburst in a face-saving way would be my approach.

(sat here in the calm of my office over-looking the Dublin mountains...in reality, being an excitable sabreur, I would probably have shouted back at the official or worse!)

Winwaloe
-29th October 2003, 16:31
I recall a ref telling me that he never made mistakes. I suggested (with a smile) that only God never made mistakes, he replied that he was, therefore, God! -

tigger
-31st October 2003, 09:13
Was he a sabreur?

The difference between god & a sabreur? God doesn't think he's a sabreur:grin:

Winwaloe
-31st October 2003, 15:04
Well as he took six days to make the World he must be an eppeeist. if he were a sabreur he would have done it in half a day and had a much more rewarding rest

MatFink
-19th November 2003, 00:40
If my understanding is correct, the match was finished. So while feel the official actions were not to be condoned, and have sympathy for the referee. If the match is over the official cannot be disturbing good order in the bout, and in reality the referee is not in a position to card them and they are not responsible for maintaining the order at that exact point in time.

Just a thought