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cesh_fencing
-16th January 2008, 20:40
I have just come across a subtle change to the World Cup Selection Scheme that I suspect few fencer have been made aware of.

In previous years the top 4 of the British Rankings would automatically have the right to fence at a world cup if they wish to, now it would seem that section 21 of Senior Ranking Scheme and Selection Procedure 2007/8 has changed this to -
21. The top three ranked fencers will be automatically entitled to be
selected. Any fencer ranked below three will be subject to selection at
the Performance Director and selectorsí discretion, who in their
absolute discretion may take other factors other than ranking positions
into account, provided that no manifest unfairness is caused to any
other fencer. Priority may be given to Olympic Pathway fencers

Surely if the Performance Director/Selectors selects someone who is lower that the 4th ranked fencer this is automatically 'manifest unfairness' against that person who is 4th as they are the higher ranked fencer...

Anyway does anyone know when ths change occurred and whether it has been highlighted/informed to those fencers who wish to do World Cup Events as it could have a very big effect to 3rd/4th borderline fencers.

Baldric
-17th January 2008, 09:46
Surely if the Performance Director/Selectors selects someone who is lower that the 4th ranked fencer this is automatically 'manifest unfairness' against that person who is 4th as they are the higher ranked fencer...

Not necessarily. This would only be true if you pre-define "fair" as being equivalent to "chosen in order of ranking".

I think its intended to allow the selectors to use other criteria, like fitness, disciplinary record, or even perceived talent. You might believe that this is unfair, but it is not MANIFESTLY unfair. If, on the other hand, they made selection based on hair colour, that would be manifestly unfair.

Miss_P
-17th January 2008, 11:39
Anyway does anyone know when ths change occurred and whether it has been highlighted/informed to those fencers who wish to do World Cup Events as it could have a very big effect to 3rd/4th borderline fencers.The first time I read it was when it was put up on the web earlier this season.

Red
-17th January 2008, 12:03
Certainly less objective, but whether its unfair or not will depend on how it gets applied.

hokers
-17th January 2008, 14:03
I think its intended to allow the selectors to use other criteria, like fitness, disciplinary record, or even perceived talent. You might believe that this is unfair, but it is not MANIFESTLY unfair. If, on the other hand, they made selection based on hair colour, that would be manifestly unfair.

Agreed. You could justifiably not select someone if they were injured or ill, or unavailable that day (weddings etc.) but a discretionary selection of a lower ranked fencer over an available 4th place fencer would need some considerable justification.

Such as selecting a Pathway fencer despite them being outside the top10 for example. You can understand the need to encourage fencers who have committed themselves to the Pathway programme, but by the same token, does that mean there is relatively little chance of selection for the non-Pathway fencers until 2012?
Is it possible to make the top 3 on domestic and non-selection results alone? Are we* wasting our time competing for ranking points if our only goal is selection?


*(the fencing community in general, not putting myself in a particular group here.)

Meg_SF
-17th January 2008, 14:09
I presume the change has been put in in order to allow selectors to send someone suitably deserving, who is on the Olympic Pathway, to a competition rather than the ranked No4. It could indeed cause controversy in the future! I suppose there are pros and cons to either Fencer going, but I wouldn't want to be the No 4 who was passed over for someone younger and spryer. Then again, how do we give our Olympic hopefuls experience if they never attain the ranking...?

Red
-17th January 2008, 14:12
Is it possible to make the top 3 on domestic and non-selection results alone?

According to Dr Farren - yes.
In WS the pathway fencers are all in the top three anyway and they're quite a way ahead of everybody else. In MS two of the three pathway fencers are in the top 4 with the third in the top 20. (Info used is here - http://www.britishfencing.com/British_Fencing.asp?PageID=495 has it changed in the last year?). It is conceivable that the third MS pathway fencer could be left at home if no referee could be sent.

pinkelephant
-17th January 2008, 17:26
Most of the time more than 4 can go anyway. There is no referee requirement for Grands Prix, so 8 could go to those even if no ref were available.

cesh_fencing
-17th January 2008, 19:13
You can understand the need to encourage fencers who have committed themselves to the Pathway programme

I have a feeling that there were many fencers who are just as committed as Pathway fencers, possibly more committed. They do not have the financial support of Pathway, the Golden tickets to Europeans/Worlds and are still fighting for recognition.

Many fencers applied for Pathway funding but were not put on the programme, so being on Pathway is not a true indicator of commitment, just that they ticked the boxes/fitted in and were liked by the selectors.

With the amount of World Cup events fencers were funded for last season Pathway fencers should all be tens of thousands of points ahead in the British Rankings so why change the rules?

Red
-17th January 2008, 23:34
With the amount of World Cup events fencers were funded for last season Pathway fencers should all be tens of thousands of points ahead in the British Rankings so why change the rules?

Because they aren't? *ducks*