PDA

View Full Version : BUSA travelling



frank_drebin
-1st November 2003, 14:11
Hey everyone, just joined the forum to moan about the distances we have to travel for BUSA matches.

I don't really mind travelling to far-flung destinations to fight other people, but there is a genuine problem with it all. Although most universities have Weds afternoon off for the BUSA matches, there are loads of people that still have lectures in the morning, and can't get out until lunchtime. This is a pain because it means that no time has been allowed for travelling, in most cases this year, two hours worth.

The problem is that we lose players because they are in lectures..

The remedy could be that universities only fence against local teams, and then the winners of the local leagues progress. I realise the current premier league system was intorduced because people complained that local teams were too easy, but this means that we have to travel such a long way each week.

What are people's ideas on this?

Jambo
-1st November 2003, 15:02
This has been brought up once or twice before. The problem with your suggestion IMO is that the regions vary a great deal. To be in the same region as Durham and Northumbria would be a bit unfair when compared to other regions if you want to progress to the finals. We're quite lucky this year but it has been a big problem before. There isn't a way round it that I can see.

Muso440
-1st November 2003, 15:09
Maybe a stupid question, but why don't these matches take place at weekends when there are no lectures?

Jambo
-1st November 2003, 15:36
Cos wed is the traditional Uni sports afternoon. And everyone good is at Opens at the weekend.

whizzkid1982
-1st November 2003, 16:12
i don't see why more people dont do what the scots did last year which is to organise a weekend when all the matches can take place at one location.

this means one long weekend but can make it fun and have nights out etc!

Jambo
-1st November 2003, 16:17
Only works if you can get a big hall in a central place and get everyone to agree a weekend. Not necessarily that easy.

whizzkid1982
-1st November 2003, 16:48
this is true and is easier in some divisions than others. however as far finding a weekend goes it only requires a weekend with no opens. i think a lot of poeple would be much happier getting all there wednesdays back than losing a weekend.

certainly for us it would mean that we didn't loose our second training session for most of the year. this is quite trying for our novices in particular since it means they don't as much time to practice.

ceprab
-2nd November 2003, 08:26
Hmmmm...

Intermediate proposal:

Have two or three match days with three or four unis at each. Those Unis all fence each other on that day. Enough fencing to be worth the travel, only have to travel a few times, but doesn't completely crucify someone because their best fighter can't make the only event.

The tournament format of everything in one day was used a few years back. I'm not sure how it worked exactly, but I know that you didn't get to fight everyone. I didn't like it (but that could be that there were maybe two people in the room with less experience than me and they were there to support their kids).

Matches at the weekend would certainly make it easier to organise.

Incidentally, how long should we let this thread get before we send the link to the BUSA administration people?

Muso440
-2nd November 2003, 09:03
Originally posted by Jambo
Cos wed is the traditional Uni sports afternoon.

Tradition is not a reason to keep something. ;) Did it ever really work for anyone from a travelling perspective? Can't imagine that it did.



And everyone good is at Opens at the weekend.

Okay, maybe. But maybe the unis could plan around those or only clash with a 'minor' comp that no-one will be too bothered about.

Muso440
-2nd November 2003, 09:06
Originally posted by ceprab


Incidentally, how long should we let this thread get before we send the link to the BUSA administration people?

You should probably let everyone who wants to have their say for a week or two, then send it to them once the thread has gone quieter again.

Jambo
-2nd November 2003, 09:07
Originally posted by Muso440
Tradition is not a reason to keep something.

It is when to change it you would have to ask every single sports team at every single uni. Or make a unilateral decision and p*** everyone off. Some sports don;t use the wednesday afternoon's but most do.

Muso440
-2nd November 2003, 09:19
Originally posted by Jambo
It is when to change it you would have to ask every single sports team at every single uni.

Why do you have to involve the other sports? Why can't you just change what the fencers do?

Jambo
-2nd November 2003, 09:21
Fair point. Incidentally I do agree with the idea of getting it all done in a drinking and fencing weekend or two. Just trying to play devils advocate!

frank_drebin
-3rd November 2003, 10:58
Once again this week i find that we have to set off from Preston at 10:30am to get to Sheffield on time for our fixture. That pretty much wipes out our chances of getting a team together for the match because everyone seems to have morning lectures on Wednesdays.

I think it is high time that BUSA changed how it worked so that we didn;t have to travel too far. Travelling to Yorkshire each week is just too far.

Cheetara
-3rd November 2003, 12:25
I would certainly be willing to give up a weekend to have wednesday afternoons back. I'm sure that it would work out cheaper in travel too so AUs would probably go for it.

As most students are actually at university to get a degree missing lectures is just not an option. Since a lot of universities have lectures on wednesday mornings that finish at 1pm and most BUSA fencing mathces start at 2pm any more than a 1 hr journey is impractical.

At Lancaster this year the women are in the Premier league. That means we have Northumbria, Durham, Nottingham and we did have Liverpool but they dropped out.
In the case of Nottingham we were the only team travelling down. If we had got a train we would have had to leave at 10.42. Even if the only lecture people had was 9 O'Clock it would have been pushing it to get there on time, so I had to drive. Nottingham is a good 3 hours drive away. Driving 3 hours, fencing all three weapons and then driving back for three hours is something I'm not entirely sure counts as safe. I can't actually make the away matches for Northumbria and Durham so I'm not sure what the transport arrangements are but the distances are just too far to be travelling every other week. I know that Lancaster is in the middle of nowhere but even so!

Also some University clubs (inc Sheffield) have to pay for transport out of their own budget rather than having the Athletic Union (If they have one) pay match costs. This means that they are at a serious disadvantage when it comes to matches. But that is sort of the Universities fault.

Dave Hillier
-3rd November 2003, 13:16
Mens Southern premier league. Aberystwth, Oxford, UCL, Cambridge, Southampton. I'm glad I don't have time to do it this year.

The only problem with fencing everything in one weekend is that you don't get to build up any sort of team spirt. I enjoyed fencing away matches when I did them. We always stayed for a pint or two afterwars (if there was time) and encoraged visiting teams to do the same with us.

whizzkid1982
-3rd November 2003, 13:29
if you do BUSA on one weekend it is possible to arrange friendlies/novice matches with local clubs and unis. this is a great way of building team spirit. it also means that rather than building team spirit it is possible to get club spirit by having the extra training time with novices etc. this means you all get to know each other.

and what stops you from going and having a couple of pints after training???!!!

ceprab
-3rd November 2003, 13:40
We usually find we have to pile straight back on the coach after an away match because someone needs to be home anyway. Plus our SA is cheap so we don't provide food at our home matches, so it's embarassing if we are offered it away.:(

Dave Hillier
-3rd November 2003, 13:53
and what stops you from going and having a couple of pints after training???!!!

well of course we do, we are fencers you know (well ish).

randomsabreur
-3rd November 2003, 15:19
South premier is doing 2 saturdays this year, 1 this term and 1 next. We (Oxford) are running the thing and still having trouble getting everyone together.

I think that CAmbridge, Oxford and Aberystwith (Can't spell) are doing their matches on 1 weekend this term for the mens and all the teams are getting together in Oxford for the Women's.

Its all very well going for leagues of "local teams" like in the past, but who is Local for UEA. Also, when it was like that we were still in a group which meant travelling 2 hours.

An official BUSA teams weekend, put on the BFA calendar at the start of the season would be very useful

BUT this is my last year at uni so I don't care

whizzkid1982
-3rd November 2003, 15:25
[i]
BUT this is my last year at uni so I don't care [/B]


i think this highlights one of the biggest problems facing university fencing. (not trying to get at you, i am in the same position)

people are only at university so teams are always changing, the top people of the clubs are alsways changing. this means that people rarely remember the way things used to be, even if it was only a couple of years previously that it happened.

i think the idea of getting a specific BUSA weekend on the BFA calendar would be great. it would also be great if the people in charge of BUSA didn't put the individuals on the same weekend as one of the junior nominated domestic events. (Hereford and Worcester)

Jambo
-3rd November 2003, 15:26
Originally posted by whizzkid1982
[B]
people are only at university so teams are always changing, the top people of the clubs are alsways changing. this means that people rarely remember the way things used to be, even if it was only a couple of years previously that it happened.
B]

And then there's people like me. Seriously though, if this is the general opinion why dont we do something about it for the rest of this season, it wouldnt be that hard to coordinate with York and Manchester for us and the other two are next door anyway.

whizzkid1982
-3rd November 2003, 15:30
well yes but york and manc would want to fence them as well. we could look into it. would prob have to happen in durham as they can get the space, i think

Jambo
-3rd November 2003, 15:45
Could be a laugh, you might even be able to mix in a novices team comp. It'll probably never happen though.

Mantis
-3rd November 2003, 20:26
I don't know if anyone else experiences this, but I feel that things could be helped if BUSA gave a little thought to the fixtures. Week one this year, our Women's team travelled to York while the Men's team had a bye. Hello!!! The men also need to go to York some time. Having said that, I see that both teams from Newcastle are coming down here on the same date.

As for space for a single weekend competition, anywhere with a large sports hall that you can hire all day would do. I have booked the hall here in Manchester all day on Saturday before now but it does involve coming down the night before to mark out pistes.

Oh, and I'm another of those who doesn't really care because I am not involved any more. ;)

ceprab
-4th November 2003, 13:11
Well, both our teams are off to Swansea tomorrow. I'm driving :rambo: . And after that we have only one team fighting in any given week. Not planned that way, just how two womens and one mens withdrawals have worked out.

mcvicar
-7th November 2003, 11:40
Certainly agree that Wednesday's can be a grind. Especially as the only minibus driver in the club it makes for a very long day to drive anywhere from the depths of Wales, fence and then drive back.
On the other hand, having lived in Canada where driving 5 hours to a match was standard it's all a case of perspective!
I think the BUSA Weekend fixture on the calendar is a good one, might reduce the problem of losing fencers who generally can't make away matches.

Naimst
-8th November 2003, 13:17
Time to add my five pence's worth to this one I think!!

Just so that everyone understands where I come from on this on, I am president of the Durham Uni fencing club, who appear to have been brought in to this conversation in one way or another several times, I am also the Transport secrectary for the Uni AU and as such organise all the transport for the BUSA sports teams in Durham Uni.

So..... A weekend of matches is in essence a great idea. It would save time for all and be much easier for transport in that you would only have to go to one place and would not have to miss lectures. Would also be cheaper for both Uni's who pay for the transport of for those who unfortunately have to pay it themselves. However I personally love watching how the league progresses over the year. Another problem with a weekend is that if one uni happens to be having a bad this almost entirely ruins their chances where as if matches are on wednesday then at least this only affects one match really. Now, I have had getting on for 30hrs of lectures a week for the last two years so am well aware of how missing lectures really does affect your degree but certainly in the Northern premiership this is just 3 wenesdays in the year......4 if Liverpool were still in. Is this really that many? We have a policy at Durham that if you are picked for a Uni team you play regardless of lectures really. We are also a fair distance from most places so many of our teams are travelling long distances to get to matches.

BUSA this year have tried to be more organised as far as matches go. They have tried to make it so that institiutions have a home week and then an away week where all of the uni's fixtures are home or away rather than half home and half away everyweek. They have also tried to make it so that for example all the Durham teams who play Newcaslte do it on the same day. This is to help with transport. It does mean however that sometimes you end up travelling earlier then necessary in order for some teams to arrive in time for their matches.

As for a weekend of competitions put in to the Calander at the beginning of the year so everyone knows when it was.....they tried to do a team event like this and everyone just complained that it was at the wrong time....or in the wrong place...i.e.Durham (too far north etc). You are never going to please everyone but they really do try their best and trying to organise the amount of sport that they do for us I really do think that they do a pretty good job and would challenge any of you to do it better!!

Cut them a bit of slack and get on with enjoying the fencing!!!

Muso440
-9th November 2003, 16:50
Originally posted by Naimst
. We have a policy at Durham that if you are picked for a Uni team you play regardless of lectures really.



Bet your lecturers are happy about that ! (writes a uni. lecturer...)

I would probably be nice to the fencers actually (if we had any, which we don't). But if I got footie players missing my lectures to go and run around a field, I'd take a pretty dim view...

Jambo
-9th November 2003, 17:23
It's a pretty common policy. The AU is fairly powerful in terms of forcing lecturers to allow you to go to matches or rearrange practical groups. Missing the odd lecture doesn't hurt in my experience, but I do have a biased viewpoint (ie student)

mcvicar
-9th November 2003, 17:29
I normally find if you ask it's no problem. I think it might cause more trouble than it's worth to 'force' a lecturer to let you off a lecture.

However, we may just be more relaxed in Wales!!

Jambo
-9th November 2003, 17:31
Ask nicely first certainly. We've found that gentle pressure has to be exerted occasionally though.

Muso440
-10th November 2003, 09:07
Originally posted by Jambo
It's a pretty common policy. The AU is fairly powerful in terms of forcing lecturers to allow you to go to matches or rearrange practical groups.

I wonder where this stems from, historically.... Is it some hangover from the days when Oxbridge were the only universities, and cared more about thrashing each other in sports than doing anything academic? (Just pondering here...)



Missing the odd lecture doesn't hurt in my experience, but I do have a biased viewpoint (ie student)

Okay, I'll give you that, the 'odd' lecture missed is okay. But it depends on the student to some extent and whether they're ever going to catch the work up.

ceprab
-10th November 2003, 10:08
Our problem isn't that lecturers force our people to attend lectures. Our problem is that the demands of passing a course require attendance at lectures. And that is what we are here for.

Mantis
-10th November 2003, 10:20
Agree with ceprab. I think it is unreasonable that you should force anyone to miss lectures for the sake of a match. Persuade and coax, yes, but you cannot oblige your team members to jeopardise their degree. I am curious to know how Naimst enforces the clubs policy.

In Manchester, in maths at least, the lectures are not compulsory but the support teaching (problems classes, tutorials, etc) it. I don't understand that and I'm not sure some of the lecturers do either.

srb
-10th November 2003, 10:31
I thought lectures were just intermissions to fill in the time whilst hungover!!

srb

Cheetara
-10th November 2003, 11:16
If you miss lectures to make away matches, fine you are only going to miss 1 or 2 a week but they will be the same 1 or 2 every week. This will often work out at missing maybe 20% of all the lectures for the particular course. In those 20% you will probably get enough knowledge to raise your mark by 1 or 2%. If you're on the borderline of 2 grade boundaries those 1 or 2% matter.

I really don't think it's acceptable to force people to miss lectures to make afencing match.

In my 2nd year I was women's captain at Manchester and also club presisdent. I had lectures that started at 12 most wednesday's, which I missed a lot of. I'm now doing a PhD at Lancastser so lectures aren't a problem, just seminars etc which are even harder to get out of.

Naimst
-10th November 2003, 13:57
Originally posted by Mantis
I am curious to know how Naimst enforces the clubs policy.


Not a club policy......a uni policy. And I don't I persuade our fencers that it is only 4 weeks out of 22 that they have to miss these lectures.....and ask them if they wouldn't mind.....flatter their ego and tell them how important it is that they come....how key they are to the success of our team.

You can't force anyone to come and we don't however sometimes it is necessary to give a huge amount of persuasion. I guess it depends on how much you want to win!

Jambo
-19th November 2003, 15:32
This is just for Kian. When travelling all the way to Newcastle how did you get lost?? And what was the sabre score?? :tongue:

pTeppic
-2nd December 2003, 22:38
This is just for Kian. When travelling all the way to Newcastle how did you get lost?? And what was the sabre score??

:confused:

What? It wasn't that bad. I have significantly slapped our team back into shape and we will be ravashing Manchester tomorrow as planned. And then there is the question of my hair for the BUSAs. It's a work in progress.

If you see someone sat outside the venue with odd coloured hair cooking a fry up on a small camping stove - it's probably me.

We kick ass. There's no I in team.

And again, I'd like to reinforce what Naimst said, we have concesssions for sportspersons to attend BUSA matches and we have a very nice person whos director of sport (and who we have a meeting with in eight hours time), who gives us concessions when we need him. We love him, lots.

Kian Ryan

Mantis
-3rd December 2003, 08:01
Originally posted by pTeppic
What? It wasn't that bad. I have significantly slapped our team back into shape and we will be ravashing Manchester tomorrow as planned.

If you say so. I seem to remember you came here and got caned at foil and sabre. Isn't sabre your strong suit? We don't have any specialist sabreurs. Admittedly you pulled it back in the epee to win by 1 point (not exactly a 'ravishing'), but today I believe we will actually have an epee team rather than one epeeist, one foilist who cannot help playing for right-of-way and one beginner.

Jambo
-3rd December 2003, 09:06
Can I just say both Manchester and Durham are evil. Anyone seen the scores from our last two matches? 113=113 twice, but losing two weapons (twice!) means nil points!! And after all my effort in the sabre.... :upset:

Naimst
-3rd December 2003, 09:45
Sabre.......definately not our strong point!

Jambo
-3rd December 2003, 10:01
Which is ironic considering your coach!

Mantis
-3rd December 2003, 10:22
Hmmm, this has gone some way off the topic of travelling. I wonder if it is time for a new thread titled "Sledging". :grin:

By the way, what is the significance of "There's no I in team"?

Jambo
-3rd December 2003, 10:26
Thats Kian's excuse for when he's the I in failure!:grin:

Only kidding mate.

ceprab
-3rd December 2003, 11:00
There are nine 'I's in our fencing team. That's how it works.







Fenciiiiiiiiing!!!


Thought I would do that before someone else did. :tongue:

rjrc1
-3rd December 2003, 15:47
Surprized noone has mentioned that it is also possible to have a lot of fun on BUSA trips. Last year at Lancaster we had to fence UCL (well if you can call what we at Lancaster were doing fencing?) And it was a great trip, we drove down in my clapped out D reg nissan sunny, annoyed Londoners on the tube trains, got our asses handed to us by UCL and drove back, it was the best trip i have ever been on.

Rob

kitten
-3rd December 2003, 16:27
Well nothing will ever compare to our trip home from Durham with the Mens Hockey Team!!!!!

<warning: playing drinking games with hockey lads can only lead to trouble>

Marcos
-3rd December 2003, 17:21
Originally posted by kitten
Well nothing will ever compare to our trip home from Durham with the Mens Hockey Team!!!!!

<warning: playing drinking games with hockey lads can only lead to trouble>

doesn't your younger brother read this?
you're a bad influence!:o