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Andy W.
-2nd November 2003, 22:35
What level of coaching is acceptable whilst a competition fight is in progress?

If a fencer's coach is present at a match is it allowed for the coach to give repeated directions to their foilist such as "keep your arm in" or "watch your distance" in additon to the more usual come on *****"

Also is it ethical for that coach to stand behind the referee who is a junior and direct the scoring?

I only ask because I saw it happen today and not so long ago I was told off for 'clapping loudly' when my fencer scored a point?

Also is a deliberate foot stamp by a fencer every time they move forward ok or does it boarder on unlawful intimidation?

Tarmac
-2nd November 2003, 23:01
i would've thought that the foot stamp would be fine.. its just an exagerated epell (however ya spell it).. i always thought unlawful intimidation was along the lines of charging into someone and battering their mask with the sabre pommel/guard...

Australian
-3rd November 2003, 04:34
deliberate foot stamping is fine...

just basic cliches like the ones ur describing arn't really coaching on the strip...

hokers
-3rd November 2003, 08:12
A little bit of encouraging shouting like "watch your distance" is probably OK. If there's a break after 3 minutes or 8 hits or whatever, then more coaching is OK then. Coaches trying to influence the president, or even having a go at them is not OK. Its up to the president to take control and tell them to shut up though. Cheering a hit for your side before the president has made his decision (unless its one light) is also not OK.

hokers

PM1
-3rd November 2003, 18:06
...but everyone (exageration) yells when their fencer's light goes on, and before the hit is given, come on !!!!!! well, in foil (which we've given up - ha!), and it's fine in epee anyway, isn't it?? MIND YOU - boy seem to fancy sabre now......

I do not think reminding someone to keep his arm straight/in line/watch your distance is anything BUT coaching, but that's because I've been told off for saying less to youngsters at LPJS's, and told not to coach. Generally, therefore, it's "Shut up" until the hit has landed, or not, and keep all other comments until the break or end of the bout. Can we be consistent, here?

And NO one should tell the ref how to score, unless s/he has obviously got it wrong (which does happen). Ref's rule stands unless DT say otherwise..................grrr

Cheetara
-3rd November 2003, 18:15
How does deliberate foot stamping intimidate people? Surely it's just appelle thingys?

Everything else would annoy me if I was the opponent. I reckon it does count as unfair coaching. I'd agree with PM1 about the 'shut up until the hit has landed...'

Rdb811
-3rd November 2003, 23:39
Originally posted by Andy W.



Also is it ethical for that coach to stand behind the referee who is a junior and direct the scoring?



Not at all.

randomsabreur
-4th November 2003, 16:19
I am not fussed if my opponent is being coached, because I can hear what they are being told. If they are being told to do a particular move, that is nice and easy for the opponent to counter.

Generally, the coach is merely confirming out loud what the competitor is (or at least should be saying to themself)! Also most fencers who have been with a coach for a while will have established some kind of code word that gives the fencer an idea what they should think about!

Coaching on the piste is a fact of life, you should see the French doing it. I have yet to see or experience anything in this country that even comes close to what I saw in my year there!

pinkelephant
-5th November 2003, 12:22
It's still cheating. The rule book specifically says that nobody may give the fencer advice (except at the breaks in a DE fight when, strictly speaking, it should be a single person who has been previously notified to the referee).

Rdb811
-5th November 2003, 21:47
It's also not very nice if the person at the other end is inexperienced and doesn't have a coach with them. Ditto with claques of people cheering on a team mate .

Although a friend of mine doesn't mind as the opponent will have only one thig going through their mind.

randomsabreur
-6th November 2003, 09:58
I have experienced this from both directions.

Not being based at a big sabre club, or at least not for WS, I can find myself facing an opponent with hoardes of people cheering for them and coaching them at the other end while I am on my own.

When I do get a few people cheering me on, it is such a relief and if they do give any pointers, it is along the general and simplistic lines of "bend your back leg, small preparation, and back straight," that I am trying to tell myself. I just trust my coaches' perceptions rather more than my own.

I do have a problem with remote control fencing, but simple coaching comments in the pause between points are probably impossible to avoid and do more good than harm.

It is far worse to be bruised by someone who's balance is all over the place when they hit you, than to have to deal with someone who has been reminded not to lean forward and then bring their arm right back before hitting!!!

Also, if there is a coach there, they will invariably tell the fencer that the referee was correct in their decision so that the fencer focuses on their fencing rather than a potentially incorrect decision from the referee. Again less frustration and less pain for the opponent.

harry
-7th November 2003, 11:05
i dont think that coaching at the side of the piste is relatively a bad thing. You dont see coaches and managers sit quietly at the side of the football ground quietly until half time-do you? It adds a different dimension to the game when tactics are changed to keep things exciting. Watching womens epee with no noise is like watching . . . . well i wont be rude!!
As long as the coach does not disrupt the bout or shouts over the referee then there is no reason why this should not be the case.

pinkelephant
-7th November 2003, 12:14
Originally posted by harry
i dont think that coaching at the side of the piste is relatively a bad thing. You dont see coaches and managers sit quietly at the side of the football ground quietly until half time-do you? It adds a different dimension to the game when tactics are changed to keep things exciting. Watching womens epee with no noise is like watching . . . . well i wont be rude!!
As long as the coach does not disrupt the bout or shouts over the referee then there is no reason why this should not be the case.

It is AGAINST THE RULES.

PM1
-7th November 2003, 19:40
and coaching during fight time is extremely unfair, particularly to the fencer who has no coach present. A good rule, so far as I'm concerned. Can't compare a team game with fencing - and who said the bouts were quiet anyway ?? That's up to the fencers. My boy dislikes being talked to whilst he is fencing - he wants to focus, concentrte on the job in hand.........and me shouting embarasses the hell out of him.........:rolleyes:

Australian
-8th November 2003, 00:55
so you are going to stop people encouraging the fencer?

or telling them to keep moving? or keep their arm out?

Andy W.
-8th November 2003, 08:55
What i saw lat Sunday I think went beyond whaty might be generally be thought 'encouragement' and seemed to be deliberate instruction to the fencer concerned to help tem overcome their opponent. I can be as rowdy as the next when cheering someone on, and a bit of loud clapping does encourage referees I find! However, I thought that coaching as you might hear in lesson was out of order.

:)

PM1
-8th November 2003, 12:26
It is.

haggis
-10th November 2003, 10:23
PM1 is right but the referee is the sole arbiter of what constitutes coaching from the side of the piste (as in so many other areas). So I, like most coaches, will discretely offer as much advice as possible/useful and if the referee tells me to shut up then I will. I find that most referees couldn't care less about coaching from piste-side so long as it doesn't infer with the smooth running of the fight and isn't ridiculously loud.

Intimidation - stamping your foot isn't intimidation, smacking your opponent in the mask with your guard and asking him to step outside to sort things out is.

randomsabreur
-10th November 2003, 15:01
Is screaming in someone's face/ear intimidation!!!!

Rdb811
-10th November 2003, 23:28
I hope not.:tongue: :tongue:

Boo Boo
-10th November 2003, 23:35
ditto :o

Boo
(who might have been warned for screaming in someone's face before...)

3 Card Trick
-11th November 2003, 11:53
I would penalise toe to toe screaming in an opponent's face, not simply screaming.

randomsabreur
-11th November 2003, 11:54
How about standing about 6 inches from opponent's ear?

Rdb811
-11th November 2003, 23:24
What abour screaming in horror at walking onto somebody else's point ?

pinkelephant
-12th November 2003, 07:31
I hope not - I do it all the time (and have been known to utter the words "stupid cow" at myself as well).

Muso440
-12th November 2003, 08:54
Originally posted by pinkelephant
I hope not - I do it all the time (and have been known to utter the words "stupid cow" at myself as well).

You mean walking onto someone's point is not something you grow out of? :( Damn.

Andy W.
-12th November 2003, 10:12
All that macho shouting,screaming and posturing ain't intimidation!

Crying in your mask during a fight is! So pack it in.

Oooooo, I kid you not, I saw an U11 girl get a warning (same as yellow card? me thinks) for crying (a lot to be fair) during a bout, ref said it was intimidating the opponent. The opponent seemed wholly unconcerned and won, but be that as it may, it was nothing to the 'intimidation' that ref got after the bout from U11's parents and coach!!!

So as for allowing refs to be the final arbiter of these things? I think not. If, as it seems, the rules say coaching ain't allowed then it ain't allowed. Anyone know the relevant section and paragraph of the rules?
:grin:

Gav
-12th November 2003, 10:59
Oooooo, I kid you not, I saw an U11 girl get a warning (same as yellow card? me thinks) for crying (a lot to be fair) during a bout, ref said it was intimidating the opponent. The opponent seemed wholly unconcerned and won, but be that as it may, it was nothing to the 'intimidation' that ref got after the bout from U11's parents and coach!!!

Y'know the most annoying thing about this paragraph is the section about parents and coach hassling the ref'. Manipulating a bout by crying is just as bad as throwing a temper tantrum. Parents [especially] and coach can't be considered to be impartial observers as they are emotionally 'tied' into the bout.

Maybe I'm just heartless but I don't see why the girl in question should have been given any leeway at all. Sounds to me like the ref' did the right thing - I don't think he justified it well but it was still right.

Besides a 'warning' IS a yellow card. If he didn't actually show the card then this is a 'friendlt chat'.

Boo Boo
-12th November 2003, 11:55
Personally, if my opponent is crying under there mask (unfortunately rare), I wouldn't feel intimidated - if your opponent is upset, it is normally a good sign ;)

Agree with Gav, the parents/refs should not take the issue up with the referee during or after the fight. If they feel that there is a legitimate problem with the referee, then they should talk to the DT.

Have seen emotional parents/caoches loose all sense of reason and logic and have a go at the ref, and it is not nice at all.

Boo

Peter Pan
-12th November 2003, 15:51
Gav, I think you're wrong here. The most important outcome was that the child would want to enter the next competition, and that the parents think fencing is a good sport for their offspring - that doesn't seem very likely from the story described, so there's another future world champ/coach/club member/social fencer lost to the sport, as well as parent helpers/financiers/organisers.

I get irritated by referees, especially youngsters who are usually well meaning but have little experience of 9 & 10 year olds, either being very strict or patronising to U10s. I know the opponent had rights in this case, but as referee I would have asked the parents to intervene, pointing out if cryer kept crying it was unfair to their opponent. Any sensible parent would have tried to sort it out, then told the child to forfeit the bout if they couldn't control themself.

U10s' parents are just as important as the children themselves - they're the drivers, timekeepers, organisers and helpers of the future.

U10s need to be referreed in a respectful but sensitive manner.

Gav
-12th November 2003, 16:28
Originally posted by DonJaime
Gav, I think you're wrong here. The most important outcome was that the child would want to enter the next competition, and that the parents think fencing is a good sport for their offspring - that doesn't seem very likely from the story described, so there's another future world champ/coach/club member/social fencer lost to the sport, as well as parent helpers/financiers/organisers.

I doubt that a young fencer who is unable to deal with the stress of competing and/or possibly attempting to manipulate the ref' is probably going to continue with the sport in any case. If the parents cannot cope with their children having to deal with stress, and as a result support the child, rather than attack the ref then I doubt that they would allow the child to compete much longer anyway. I also submit that losing a club member/coach/social fencer of this calibre would be a major loss to the sport. Slightly harsh but I have met people like this in the past.


I get irritated by referees, especially youngsters who are usually well meaning but have little experience of 9 & 10 year olds, either being very strict or patronising to U10s. I know the opponent had rights in this case, but as referee I would have asked the parents to intervene, pointing out if cryer kept crying it was unfair to their opponent. Any sensible parent would have tried to sort it out, then told the child to forfeit the bout if they couldn't control themself.

If I had been ref' I may have asked the parents to intervene however I would not be very sympapthetic. I have met and fenced some fantastic kids who could not only deal with losing but could also deal with winning. Why should we give more leeway to someone behaving in the negative manner that has been described? You are correct that a sensible parent should have sorted it out, however I disagree that ay child should be encouraged to throw a bout. You do not want to build any negative behaviour in from the start.


U10s' parents are just as important as the children themselves - they're the drivers, timekeepers, organisers and helpers of the future.

Agreed. I've often wished that more parents take a more active role.


U10s need to be referreed in a respectful but sensitive manner.

Yes. And that crying child should have been behaving in a manner that was respectful to their peer as well as themselves. I'll reiterate as well that I do not believe the gain to fencing would be all that great if we were to put up with any poor behaviour in order to keep one fencer.

Winwaloe
-17th November 2003, 16:53
I don't think I have ever had a fencer burst into tears when I have been refing (had a fencing partner do it at a coaching course, tears, tantrum and angst). However I think when refing the u10's a little flexibility and humanity can go a long way. It depends on the circumstances and the level of comp (County age groups, LPJS, Premier Series etc). As a parent, fencer and coach i would hope I could deal with the fencer and then the parent (NB remember to carry my (earned) blackbelt in fencing bag!). With regard to other fencers, coach, parents "helping" the referee it happens a lot and at all levels. Had a fairly heated argument with a French ref a while back who also happened to be the coach of one of the two fencers (the other was English). Poor chap said he couldn't see the issue with refing and coaching at the same time!!

PM1
-18th November 2003, 20:50
The epee cadet boys have just come back from Bonn - 9 nations etc. I'm told the Swiss unashamedly coached on the piste, except when 3CT was reffing. There was also pretty offensive language used about/to them - amazingly, some of our boys do speak languages other than Kevin and understood........didn't put some of them off, either................

2ndpl=1stloser
-26th November 2003, 22:42
Blubba blubba

The common thread in most sports is that cosseted Brit kid attains Intl competition then falls flat on his/her face wnen realises that training has provided perfect preparation for 245th world ranking.

Doesn't competing hurt? Don't 'competitors' have to get used to that? Don't refs get it wrong? ALL the time?