View Full Version : 'Three Strikes and your out Hunter'

Barry Paul
-6th November 2003, 17:32
The good news is that if you throw your kit in a fit of temper I.H. has a blind spot but do it three times and it's the Big Black. You have been warned.!!!!!!!! Barry

Boo Boo
-6th November 2003, 21:49
There has to be a story behind this....?


-7th November 2003, 00:31
I try not to bite when Barry posts something like this, but I agree with Boo, spill the beans.


-7th November 2003, 00:57

3 Card Trick
-7th November 2003, 09:01
Think epee

Boo Boo
-7th November 2003, 09:17
An epeeist was black carded for throwing kit (mask) last year (Shropshire?), but I assume that is not what Barry is talking about.

(probably being incredibly obtuse... but wonders is Ian is going to post)

Barry Paul
-7th November 2003, 09:30

Boo Boo
-7th November 2003, 09:40
Barry, you are such a tease!!!

(will learn to be good and not to fall for it next time...)

-8th November 2003, 00:56
Originally posted by Boo Boo
An epeeist was black carded for throwing kit (mask) last year (Shropshire?), but I assume that is not what Barry is talking about.


i'm going there! :grin:

-8th November 2003, 12:48
....guess who I'm going to be buying cup of coffee for tomorrow at Cardiff....all in the cause of a good gossip..lol

-13th November 2003, 21:22
Not a chance

-15th November 2003, 01:52

I have occasion when my mask seems akin to a rugby ball after a nasty defeat. Surely if I boot my mask across the hall, a la Chris Paterson, you wouldn't black card me for that? (although, being Scottish, I am more likely to drop it)



-15th November 2003, 11:30
Please refer to back issues of'Escrime'. M.Roch has identified the perception that other sports have of our manners and sportsmanship as one of the sport's strongest Olympic strengths.
The FIE arbitrage has instructed that the owners of wayward masks are to be severely dealt with.Same with backchat to the ref and general 'bad' behaviour. We don't make the rules,we just apply them.

terrible twins
-15th November 2003, 15:16
At the hereford and worcester open, 2001 i had been knocked out in an early stage (as usual) and was sitting watching the epee when suddenly i heard this shouting and the next think i knew there was an epee being launched accross the hall (over 6 pistes) an coming my way in a javelin like fashion :( . i managed to move out of the way but landed at my friends feet. Luckily this welsh fencer was black carded but i have never seen behaviour that appaling before.

I think it is very important when behaviour similar to this is aknowledged and treated with seriousness. Black cards are rarley given but when they have been given in my experience they have been for all the righ reasons.

i have heard that I.Hunter is notorious for giving black cards but im sure he wouldnt give them unless he felt it necessary.

-15th November 2003, 16:33
For 'notorious' read qualified.!

-15th November 2003, 16:37
I strongly object to 'anonymous' criticism. Declare yourself.

-15th November 2003, 19:42
Dear All,

B;ack Cards are a serious business. If one os given in an FIE event it is reported to the FIE and additional penalties can be given in addition to disqualification. In Uk registered competitions the refree andf competition organiser haveto send a report to BFA and once recived the BFA Disciplinary Committee examine the offence comitted and decide whether to hold a disciplinary hearing and whether to add to the penalty of disqualification.

The BFA has banned fencers in the past, given suspended sentences or felt that disqualification was sufficient punishment.

I think all fencers, coaches and parents/supporters need to realise that if they transgress the rules they can be disquailified and excluded from the venue if necesary.

I have only ever given one black card. Either I am lucky, soft or people behave when I referee, but everyone should realise that referees may and indeed should punish misbehaviour.


-17th November 2003, 16:58
A year or so ago I saw a lad who had just lost a fight take off his mask and throw it at the wall. Problem was that it bounced off the wall and hit his Mother. What followed probably made sure he never did the same again!!!!!

-18th November 2003, 08:29
When our lads were about 12 and 14 they had an unfortunate habit of ripping their masks off and throwing them straight down onto the floor when they had lost a fight. No referees seemed prepared to do anything about it at the time - probably felt sorry for them as they were young (in my opinion that's exactly when they SHOULD have the rule book thrown at them so they don't get bad habits). So we took the law into our own hands and told them the next offence would incur a one-competition ban (from us). Sure enough, one of them did it again, and we banned him from the next competition. He was very upset, but neither of them has EVER done it again.

Barry Paul
-18th November 2003, 16:46
The original thread was meant light heartedly with a slight edge. The mark of a good referee is to help the fencing not become the fencing. At Ipswich Ian black carded an epeeist quite correctly, but only after the lady had behaved repeatedly in a way that Ian could not ignore it.

Times have changed, I can remember hitting my opponent with a mask during a Team Match in the Montreal Olympics, but I would not do it now. Our fencers have to realise that referees are under instructions by the F.I.E. to be very strict. The result is some referees (not Ian) are capable of picking on politically weaker countries (ie G.B) to black card their fencers over silly things, best to do nothing that they can complain of. Barry Paul M.D. Leon Paul

Boo Boo
-18th November 2003, 16:58
The rules are the rules: its our responsibility, as fencers, to know the rules. If we break them, then we shouldn't be surprised at the consequences.

Its unfortunate, since we all make mistakes sometimes... especially where (controlled) agression is a big part of the game. However if you don't break any rules, you can't get penalised...

(now quite scared of Barry...)

-18th November 2003, 23:38
I am please to see that Keith has stepped into to this discussion and added sanity. Over the last few years I have had the privelage to watch both Keith and Ian first hand, and it is clear to me why they are our two highest rated referees.

The role of the referee is to facilitate fencing, not to be the main attraction and both these referee's achieve this role excellently. I am aware that Ian has a reputation for being firm, but I would rather have a firm referee in whom I could entrust my safety and welfare on piste rather than one who is less strong.

In regards to black cards. If a black card is given it will nearly always be justified. Ian may have given more black cards than some referees, but no doubt less than others. But it is his job to apply the rules and thanks to both Ian and Keith British referees have a very good reputation abroad.

In regards to Hereford and Worcester, that was an unfortunate incident which is now in the past, and perhaps it would be best for all if it was left in the past. I would however suggest, as one of only two people in any danger of being hit be the aforementioned epee, that stories of great drama and peril are unecessary and unhelpful

-19th November 2003, 08:22
Ah the good ol' days! Way back when we could smack our opponents with our masks without fear!

So Barry, what exactly happened in Montreal?

terrible twins
-24th November 2003, 18:07
You talk as though this person should be congratulated and that it wasnt his fault. But if a serious accident had happened it wouldnt be so easy to fogive. and anyway i was giving an example as to where the black card had been used effectively to show that such behaviour should not have been got away with....and it didnt.

-24th November 2003, 23:21
Please read my posts before criticising them, I in no way condone the actions of the fencer involved. I did however state the issue was in the past. It has already been publically dealt with under the BFA disciplinary process.

What I object to was the sensationalisation of the incident that was posted, particularly as it was untrue.

In any case the referee did not award the card, it was awarded by the DT. The whole thing was unfortunate. The fencer has suffered the consequences of their actions and should be allowed to move on. No one is served well by gossip, not the fencers and certainly not te referees.