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Boo Boo
-23rd April 2008, 06:49
Just wanted to wish all of our athletes very good fortune at the Olympic Qualifiers this weekend: hope that all of your hard work and deidcation pays off and where luck is involved it goes your way :)

I believe that we have two fencers going to Lisbon (Foil), two to Istanbul (Sabre) and two to Prague (Epee).

:mexwave:

If anyone finds a results site/service, can you post it here for me please?

Boo

fencingmum
-23rd April 2008, 11:21
I second that. Very good luck to everyone.

fa266
-23rd April 2008, 16:18
I'm sure there is a link to this elsewhere or similar discussion, but how do these work? i.e. - how many fencers are going and where does someone have to finish at the zonals to qualify?

UglyBug
-23rd April 2008, 17:11
We are sending one to each of the 6 weapons

Think they have to win them?

UglyBug
-23rd April 2008, 17:41
Radically read the FIE site, so subject to my dodgy French...

In weapons where there is also a team event (MS, ME, WF, WS) the top 5 from the zonals, including 2 from the European one, so I guess they have to finish 1st or 2nd

Where there is no team event (MF and WE) the top 8 from the zonals, including 3 from the European one, so 1st, 2nd or 3rd...

Best of luck to them all

tigger
-23rd April 2008, 19:12
Anyone know of a live update site for the zonals this weekend?

Keith.A.Smith
-23rd April 2008, 21:11
Dear All,

Very god luck to all our 6 fencers this weekend.

Keith

Foilling Around
-23rd April 2008, 22:46
Dear All,

Very god luck to all our 6 fencers this weekend.

Keith

Keith I love your typos and this one is both a beauty and very apt! All it is missing is a capital letter!

If I were religious then I would agree with the sentiment, may the Lord be on your side all 6 of you!!

cesh_fencing
-24th April 2008, 10:13
I hope all 6 of you have a really successful event and get into those top 2 or 3 places to qualify..

Have we any idea how many entries there are in each event?

Maybe tomorrow the fight lists will be released by the organisers and we can see who is attending both from GBR and the rest of europe.

Spider5
-24th April 2008, 10:40
http://www.britishfencing.com/British_Fencing.asp?PageID=989

UglyBug
-24th April 2008, 11:24
Did anyone else check to see whether my dodgy french was right in working out 2/3 places depending on weapon?

Red
-24th April 2008, 11:39
Er... Its also published in English... You were right - your dodgy translation skills aren't that dodgy.

Go to top right corner on the FIE site and you'll see FR | EN | ES - click on these to get to the version in the appropriate language.

UglyBug
-24th April 2008, 12:09
Golly, that's clever - I thought that doing that would only change the language of the site, not the publications - does that mean all the FIE letters etc can also be read in English??

wix
-24th April 2008, 12:10
Elisa Albini, GBR (211)
Agne Azukaite, LTU (455)
Dagmar Baranikova, SVK (385)
Romana Caran SRB (101)
Cristiana Cascioli, ITA (34)
Jeanne Christou, GRE (95)
Tatyana Dimitrova, BUL (175)
Kaja Dolar, SLO (120)
Irina Embrich, EST (16)
Lis Fautsch, LUX (216)
Magdalena Grabowska, POL (27)
Gokce Gunac, TUR (177)
Hilla Hämäläinen, FIN (138)
Sophie Lamon, SUI (25)
Noam Mills, ISR (105)
Ana Miranda, POR (137)
Margrete Mørch, NOR (180)
Martina Olexova, CZE (121)
Claudia Panuschka, AUT (124)
Aina Rovira, ESP (197)
Emma Samuelsson, SWE (36)
Yana Shemyakina, UKR (14)
Sonja Tol, NED (21)
Julija Vansovica, LAT (39)

Men's Epee
Anzor Albrekht, GEO (743)
Georges Ambalof, GRE (726)
Dennis Bade, FIN (61)
Jiri Beran, CZE (28)
Grigori Beskin, ISR (151)
Attila Ersek, SVK (91)
Tomas Krasikovas, LTU (172)
Kiril Marinov, BUL (707)
Jörg Mathe, AUT (96)
Danilo Nikolic, SRB (158)
Nikolai Novosjolov, EST (49)
Adrian Pop, ROU (72)
Oleg Rakovski, MDA (-)
Sven Schmid, GER (50)
Guray Sir, TUR (420)
Martin Slodjnak, SLO (372)
Dino Sourek, CRO (250)
Joar Sundman, SWE (82)
Sturla Torkildsen, NOR (109)
Yoeri van Laecke, BEL (77)
Jonathan Willis, GBR (86)
Vitali Zakharov, BLR (90)

UglyBug
-24th April 2008, 13:05
Interesting - where did that come from? have you got the sabre and foil equivalents?

wix
-24th April 2008, 13:14
That info came from Irish Fencing Forum, posted by Argon about 2 days ago. I haven't been able to find foil or sabre equivalents yet.

Red
-24th April 2008, 14:09
Golly, that's clever - I thought that doing that would only change the language of the site, not the publications - does that mean all the FIE letters etc can also be read in English??

Yes, and Spanish.

Boo Boo
-24th April 2008, 18:55
British Fencers announced - http://www.britishfencing.com/British_Fencing.asp?PageID=989

Boo

pinkelephant
-24th April 2008, 21:02
British Fencers announced - http://www.britishfencing.com/British_Fencing.asp?PageID=989

Boo

As Spider 5 posted this morning.

Boo Boo
-24th April 2008, 21:20
As Spider 5 posted this morning.

Yes, sorry about that - didn't see (a little bit tired when I got home from work...).

Me posting it again (without realising) apparently upset some poor sensitve soul an awful lot, but apparently he/she loves me lots, so it isn't all bad... ;)

Boo

Gangsta G
-26th April 2008, 00:22
I've been doing a bit of FIE rankings nerdiness and I reckon most, if not all of the following will be fencing at the MS qualifiers:

#6 Pina (ESP)
#8 Tarantino (ITA)
#12 Lapkes (BLR)
#15 Dumitrescu (ROU)
#22 Lukashenko (UKR)
#28 Decsi (HUN)
#40 Beisheim (GER)
#114 Momtselidze (GEO)
#127 O’Connell (GBR)
#128 Sigurdsson (ISL)
#129 Van Holsbeke (BEL)
#157 Mahlmaki (FIN)

It's interesting how quickly the rankings plummet - from the top 40 in the world, to outside of the top 100. Fencing really is dominated by a handful of European nations!

To put some positive spin on it for Alex... Benedikt Beisheim, the 2007 junior world champion, will most probably be Germany's representative at the qualifiers. Last season, Alex faced Beisheim three times, and beat him three times. This season, Beisheim has beaten the following:

#1 Montano (ITA)
#33 Skrodzi (POL)
#10 Smart (USA)
#20 Won (KOR)

So... if Beisheim is capable of doing it against some of the best in the world, and Alex is capable of doing it against Beisheim, then he's got a better chance than it might first appear! Especially as there's no real pressure on him to perform, but there is on a lot of the fencers; for many of them it will probably be their last chance to qualify for the Olympics. This of course goes for most if not all of our athletes. I would do the same analysis for the other weapons but it's getting late and I ought to go to bed!!

Gangsta G
-26th April 2008, 00:43
Hm... looking again I think I've got that horribly wrong and half of the names I mentioned won't in fact be there! Olympic Qualifying really is complicated...

Oh well, best of luck to our fencers and goodnight!

Red
-26th April 2008, 01:05
He certainly can't be any lower than 4th seed. And he only has to make the final. Walk in the park? The 'tough' guys will be the UKR and POL fencers. Can it really be this easy to qualify? No doubt find out within the next 20 hours.
(my info taken from the provisional individual qualifying sheet on the FIE home page-the guys in red qualify via ranking)

Lets hope that the video ref system is set up to keep Alex in the frame this time ;)

Red
-26th April 2008, 01:27
It's interesting how quickly the rankings plummet - from the top 40 in the world, to outside of the top 100. Fencing really is dominated by a handful of European nations!


But surely FENCING IS A GLOBAL SPORT, it must be - Rene keeps telling us so.

MS has 22 Europeans of total of 39 (3 Chinese qualified)
MF has 10 of 24 (2 Chinese)
ME has 22 of 39 (1 Chinese)
WS has 18 of 39 (3 Chinese)
WF has 18 of 39 (3 Chinese)
WE has 9 of 24 (2 Chinese)

So overall, Europe has 99 fencers out of 204 (48.5%). Are the eight Chinese in addition to those qualified? If so, China has a huge 22 fencers participating and drags the European contribution down to 99/212 (46.7%).

Either way, it's not even half the entry.

Foilling Around
-26th April 2008, 09:17
Anyone got any contacts in any of the venues? Martina must have started fencing 3 hours ago now.

monobrow
-26th April 2008, 09:38
jojo told me last night that her competition has been moved from 8am start to 3pm start so it can go out live on turkish television.

so i have to sit here and twiddle my thumbs for a further 4 hours probably before i hear anything.

i think there are 9 in the womens sabre inc jojo, and 2 have byes through the pool, not jojo

Gangsta G
-26th April 2008, 11:38
Ha ha it appears I couldn't have been further from the truth... I got the qualified teams completely wrong! The main competition in MS with come from Lukashenko, Beisheim and one of the Polish fencers.

Am I right in saying that if you qualify as a member of a team, you also fence in the individual?

Best of luck to everyone today.

tigger
-26th April 2008, 11:49
I don't think Beisheim will be there, as Limbach will have qualified through world ranking for Germany.

The tough guys (Lukashenko & Skrodzki) are good. Lukashenko is former World Champion, Skrodski has won senior World Cup & GP medals in the last 2 years.

I really am going crazy not knowing what's happening over there!

tigger
-26th April 2008, 12:02
I've just heard that Alex is into the L4 vs Boiko (UKR) - so Lukashenko was not sent by the Ukrainiains

Gangsta G
-26th April 2008, 12:05
I've just heard that Alex is into the L4 vs Boiko (UKR) - so Lukashenko was not sent by the UkrainiainsCome on Alex! You can do it!

I would be spitting bullets if I was Lukashenko!

I think it's a bit unfair that you're not allowed to send anyone to the zonal qualifier if you've already got an individual qualified from the AOR... it just seems to mean that more of the world's top fencers are denied the chance to fence on the highest stage.

hokers
-26th April 2008, 12:44
Any more results?

tigger
-26th April 2008, 12:50
Alex not fencing for a while now.

I've heard (but don't take this as gospel) That Jon willis went out in the pools, and Martina Emmanuel is also out before the L4 (but I'm not sure what stage).

Jojo is fencing the pools and was 1 up, 1 down last I heard.

Nothing on Richard Kruse or Sisi

Gangsta G
-26th April 2008, 13:36
Jojo losing 8-4 to Siobban Byrne in the L8 apparently

tigger
-26th April 2008, 13:46
Sadly Jojo has lost Siobhan Byrne in the L8. A big shame

tigger
-26th April 2008, 13:56
Alex fences 330pm our time. Anyone heard anything about Kruse?

Foilling Around
-26th April 2008, 13:59
and Martina Emmanuel is also out before the L4 (but I'm not sure what stage).

And from the FIE website the African Zone qualifier had 3 WF entries and was won by a 16 year old Algerian whose only international result was 46th at this years Junior Worlds. I presume therefore that she will be in Beijing!!!

I'm all in favour of promoting fencing round the world, but there have to be limits!

Adam Blight
-26th April 2008, 14:12
That's the way it works Paul! British fencers just have to jump a LOT higher. Have you looked out for pupils with dual citizenship with African countries? I have.

aao
-26th April 2008, 14:17
Willis out in the Poules with 2 victories :(

full results for mens and womens epee can be found here:

http://www.czechfencing.com/czech/main.php

aao
-26th April 2008, 14:19
Albini out with 1 victory in the poules for the womens

Boo Boo
-26th April 2008, 14:48
Oh, been out all day and have been missing things... :(

Very bad luck to everyone out so far. Best Wishes to Alex and Richard.

Boo

Spider5
-26th April 2008, 15:07
Come on lads.

tigger
-26th April 2008, 15:08
O'Connell qualifies for Beijing...unbelievable... 15-14 win over Boiko. What a man!

Baldric
-26th April 2008, 15:11
O'Connell qualifies for Beijing...unbelievable... 15-14 win over Boiko. What a man!

WELL DONE THAT MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!:not_worth:not_worth:not_worth:not_ worth:not_worth:not_worth:not_worth:not_worth:not_ worth

Poor Jan must have been having a heart attack!

tigger
-26th April 2008, 15:13
Currently a unconfirmed text, but I'm 99% sure its true...

TBennett
-26th April 2008, 15:13
Nice... :D

tigger
-26th April 2008, 15:14
If so, an extraordinary achievement for a 20 year-old with very little senior experience.

TBennett
-26th April 2008, 15:16
Makes up for Junior Worlds and then some I reckon

tigger
-26th April 2008, 15:19
It's true. Just heard confirmation 15-14 and into the final.

Boo Boo
-26th April 2008, 15:25
It's true. Just heard confirmation 15-14 and into the final.

Amazing - what maturity and nerve until the end :not_worth :)

Well done Alex! :)

And best wishes for the final too :)

Boo

tigger
-26th April 2008, 15:35
...5-0 up, 8-5 down, then 11 all, then 14-13 down. 14-all...
...Alex scores the hit, Ukraine call for replay, but no repeat of the worlds and Alex's hit is upheld and he wins...

tigger
-26th April 2008, 15:37
I've heard Kruse is into L8. I don't have any other details though

Spider5
-26th April 2008, 15:38
It's true. Just heard confirmation 15-14 and into the final.


'kin A, fantastic result and at 20 he's still early in his Olympic career.

Any news on Kruse?

Edit: just seen Tigs latest post, come on Richard.

fencingmum
-26th April 2008, 15:56
Fantastic, Alex! Well done!

hokers
-26th April 2008, 16:08
Awesome! Congratulations Alex!

Red
-26th April 2008, 16:28
:not_worth Well done Alex!
Gonna win it?

Boo Boo
-26th April 2008, 16:29
I've heard Kruse is into L8. I don't have any other details though

Any more news on Alex & Richard?

Boo

Baldric
-26th April 2008, 16:42
Just counted the people logged on to the forum watching this thread - about 35 - its tough typing with my fingers crossed!

Boo Boo
-26th April 2008, 16:47
Just counted the people logged on to the forum watching this thread - about 35 - its tough typing with my fingers crossed!

Shame that, apart from the czech federation's website covering the Epee qualifiers, there isn't much other web coverage... :(

Wouldn't you just love some "live" coverage of the scores?

Boo

Keith.A.Smith
-26th April 2008, 16:55
Alex qualified fior Beijing. Richard lost 12 11 in semis. Must now fight for 3rd to qualify.

Best wishes from Mexico where I am running the Pan American Olympic Qualifiers.

Fingers crossed.

Keith

GKB
-26th April 2008, 16:55
WELL DONE ALEX !! :mexwave: After the fiasco at the Junior Worlds this is just right!!

Gangsta G
-26th April 2008, 16:56
Fantastic result for Alex. What a legend.

Boo Boo
-26th April 2008, 17:02
Hope that Richard wins his 3rd place fight then. ANyone know who he has and at what time GB time?

Boo

Spider5
-26th April 2008, 17:03
Shame that, apart from the czech federation's website covering the Epee qualifiers, there isn't much other web coverage... :(

Wouldn't you just love some "live" coverage of the scores?

Boo

Yep, Gav is working on live text-to-thread functionality as we speak. He hasn't slept for 3 days and Edinburgh has run out of red wine and pizza.

Well OK I made that up but maybe it will become a self fulfilling prophecy...

Boo Boo
-26th April 2008, 17:05
Yep, Gav is working on live text-to-thread functionality as we speak. He hasn't slept for 3 days and Edinburgh has run out of red wine and pizza.

Well OK I made that up but maybe it will become a self fulfilling prophecy...

Surely you mean "beer & pizza" ;)

We just need the host federations to decide to cover the events...

Boo

BoutAfrica
-26th April 2008, 17:06
And from the FIE website the African Zone qualifier had 3 WF entries and was won by a 16 year old Algerian whose only international result was 46th at this years Junior Worlds. I presume therefore that she will be in Beijing!!!

I'm all in favour of promoting fencing round the world, but there have to be limits!

It does'nt always help, especially if your country wont send you even if you where to qualify because you are not classified as "development".


That's the way it works Paul! British fencers just have to jump a LOT higher. Have you looked out for pupils with dual citizenship with African countries? I have.


Again, a waste of time.

pigeonmeister
-26th April 2008, 17:26
What a legend, Alex!

COME ON RICHARD!

(I'm watching and waiting whilst in America!)

UglyBug
-26th April 2008, 17:41
Wow!! and more wow!!

gettingonabit
-26th April 2008, 17:43
Hi,

News via Prague is that that Alex O'Connell has qualified via the Zonal qualifier!!! Fantastic news if confirmed - can someone verify this?

And Richard......?

Jonny W did not qualify.

K

fencingmum
-26th April 2008, 17:53
Any news on Richard yet? I've got to go out now and this is nail-biting stuff....

Spider5
-26th April 2008, 18:02
Aaargh, no finger nails left. Come on Richard!!

TBennett
-26th April 2008, 18:05
Hi,

News via Prague is that that Alex O'Connell has qualified via the Zonal qualifier!!! Fantastic news if confirmed - can someone verify this?

And Richard......?

Jonny W did not qualify.

K



Just check the fie website:

www.fie.ch

Results for Mens and Womens Sabre and Epee are up.

Keith.A.Smith
-26th April 2008, 18:05
Dear All,

Richard lost for 3rd place. I feel really sorry for him.

keith

silvercross
-26th April 2008, 18:05
The foil is being transmitted live on the Portuguese Fencing Federation website, though I'm having trouble with the webcast:

http://www.fpe.pt/~fpept/SGC/index.php/fpe_site/fpe_tv

silvercross
-26th April 2008, 18:07
drats! :(

rastaroso
-26th April 2008, 18:09
Just got a text from the Z man says he lost by 1 hit suffering from cramps and endurance let him down. Feel upset for both richard and ziemek. Well done Alex top result my man.

silvercross
-26th April 2008, 18:14
Not to be too cheeky, Keith, but would you happen to know how Panamanian Epeeist Jesica Jimenez is doing?
She's the only one competing from my neck of the woods, and all 20 of us Panamanian fencers worldwide are anxious to know if she's still in the running for one of the qualifying spots.:)

Keith.A.Smith
-26th April 2008, 18:23
Pan Am WE is on Sunday.

It is being run over two days.

keith

Red
-26th April 2008, 18:27
Shame Alex didn't win the MS outright - score in the final was 15-10.

cesh_fencing
-26th April 2008, 18:34
Does anyone know what happens if a qualified fencer drops out (injury etc) prior to the event. Do they go down the rankings or take the next fencer from the qualifiers?

Eloise Smith reached her Olympics as a reserve if I remember correctly..

Could possibly give Richard a chance of still going!!

Red
-26th April 2008, 18:35
The Irish girl that knocked Jojo out beat Andreea Pelei (ROU) 15/14 in the semi and went out by the same score to Araceli Navarro (ESP) in the final.

Great achievement - seems to be so rare to see any Irish in the Olympics.

silvercross
-26th April 2008, 18:35
Thanks, Keith. Will glue myself to the computer tomorrow to see if I can find somewhere where they might be passing the American Zonal Qualifiers live (mexican FA didn't have anything about the event)

There's no shame in not winning the qualifier if qualification is what the big prize was really all about.

Well Done to Alex!

(and to everyone else who was at the qualifiers giving it their all)

Spider5
-26th April 2008, 18:37
Well done to Alex, commiserations to the other guys.

Ronald Velden
-26th April 2008, 18:39
Just returned from Brentwood School where there was foil tournament today.
Grace was refereeing the Camden match when the news came through.

Many congratulations to Alex and his family on his terrific achievement.
Hopefully this will provide him with fresh impetus and longterm achievement
in the sport.

silvercross
-26th April 2008, 18:40
Does anyone know what happens if a qualified fencer drops out (injury etc) prior to the event. Do they go down the rankings or take the next fencer from the qualifiers?

Eloise Smith reached her Olympics as a reserve if I remember correctly..

Could possibly give Richard a chance of still going!!

Tonya Harding + obscured visor fencing mask + crowbar = one very bad joke :rolleyes:

Red
-26th April 2008, 19:10
Er... Silly question, has anyone at BF contacted the BBC?

Keith.A.Smith
-26th April 2008, 20:02
Dear All,

Have contacted Graham Morrison our Press Officer fromMexico.

Also Graham Watts will contcat BOA who also handle PR for the Olympics.

Keith

Red
-26th April 2008, 20:14
Good to hear. A little shameless self promotion at times like this can't do any harm.

MatFink
-26th April 2008, 20:56
Don't forget the FIE/IOC still hold in their gift a number of wild cards

As the Chinese qualified virtually a full team their spots are within the gift of FIE/IOC (not 100% of the process here) but given past Olympic performance its not impossible that atleast one of our fencers might 'get lucky'.

I am not certain but potentially there are upto 7 spots left to be allocated. I am sure there will be someone in the know floating around if it becomes relevent to any of our fencers.

So here's me crossing my fingers for some good fortune.

Well done to Alex.

Red
-26th April 2008, 21:27
Don't forget the FIE/IOC still hold in their gift a number of wild cards

As the Chinese qualified virtually a full team their spots are within the gift of FIE/IOC (not 100% of the process here) but given past Olympic performance its not impossible that atleast one of our fencers might 'get lucky'.

I am not certain but potentially there are upto 7 spots left to be allocated. I am sure there will be someone in the know floating around if it becomes relevent to any of our fencers.

So here's me crossing my fingers for some good fortune.

Well done to Alex.

As I posted earlier in the thread the Chinese have qualifed 2 each in MF and WE, 3 in MS, WS and WF and 1 in ME - I think they can only use up two of the 'host nation' quota, leaving 6 for the FIE/IOC.

Australian
-26th April 2008, 23:24
From facebook:

Alex O'Connell is re-evaluating what he'll be doing this summer.
2 hours ago


Possibly the understatement of the year. Wonderful result.

Keith.A.Smith
-27th April 2008, 00:00
Dear all,

We had contacted FIE and BOA etc about wild cards some weeks as BFA are fully aware of the various means of getting into Beijing Olympic games.

Keith

Red
-27th April 2008, 00:28
I don't think anybody has mentioned this yet, but well done to his coach David Sach :not_worth

Gangsta G
-27th April 2008, 01:10
Does anyone know what happens if a qualified fencer drops out (injury etc) prior to the event. Do they go down the rankings or take the next fencer from the qualifiers?

Eloise Smith reached her Olympics as a reserve if I remember correctly..

Could possibly give Richard a chance of still going!!

From the FIE website: http://www.fie.ch/download/homepage/en/Criteria%20for%20qualification%20OG-FIE-ang.pdf

In the event that the NOC of a country declines the participation of one qualified fencer:
• If the fencer is qualified through the AOR , the qualification will be re-allocated to the fencer ranked next
• If the fencer is qualified through the zone AOR, he/she will be replaced by the next ranked fencer in the same zone
• If the qualification was obtained through the zone-qualifying event, the qualification will be attributed to the fencer ranked next in this event.

So... yes.

Red
-27th April 2008, 09:25
Dear All,

Have contacted Graham Morrison our Press Officer fromMexico.

Also Graham Watts will contcat BOA who also handle PR for the Olympics.

Keith

I'm surprised that there's nothing on the BFA website yet...

Sorry to badger...

Baldric
-27th April 2008, 09:28
I'm surprised that there's nothing on the BFA website yet...

Sorry to badger...

Give them a break! I think the website content is managed by the office staff, who don't work weekends.

Red
-27th April 2008, 09:31
Give them a break! I think the website content is managed by the office staff, who don't work weekends.

Fair enough, I'll be quiet now... :o

daoud
-27th April 2008, 10:04
I see RTE website already has excellent coverage of Siobhan Byrne's magnificent achievement. Has the BBC noticed Alex yet ? Has anyone from BFA rung them ? Has anyone rung all the sports editors ?

thedoc
-27th April 2008, 10:23
will this do you all?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics/fencing/7369611.stm

you do have to look for things you know...

thedoc
-27th April 2008, 10:34
and here too

http://www.sportinglife.com/others/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=others/08/04/27/FENCING_Istanbul.html

Boo Boo
-27th April 2008, 10:39
will this do you all?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics/fencing/7369611.stm

you do have to look for things you know...

Thank you for posting :)

I am assuming it is INCREDIBLY unlikely that the BOA will decide not to send Alex :eek:

Fingers crossed that Richard gets a wild card (and fully recovers from his ankle injury very soon :( ).

May Martina still possibly be in with a chance if a couple of people drop out too (you never know - will have my fingers crossed anyway...)?

Well done, again, to Alex - what exciting times ahead. Commiserations to those who didn't make it this time, but fingers crossed for London 2012.

Boo

Gangsta G
-27th April 2008, 11:00
The way I understand the rules on the FIE website, if the BOA decline Alex's place (which I think is highly unlikely), it is instead given to Boyko. (Who came third). The articles are implying that the BOA could, if they wanted, send another British fencer in Alex's place.

daoud
-27th April 2008, 11:16
will this do you all?



Great. Hope the papers follow it up.

silvercross
-27th April 2008, 12:45
Is there any reason why the BOA would decide against Alex O'Connell participating in the Olympics?

Gangsta G
-27th April 2008, 14:37
Is there any reason why the BOA would decide against Alex O'Connell participating in the Olympics?I doubt it. It's probably more of an official procedure, in that all athletes who have qualified/been selected by their association have to be approved by the BOA before they are officially entered. So the likes of Dwayne Chambers can be entered by the British Athletics Association but vetoed by the BOA (I am guessing). I could be totally wrong!

canco
-27th April 2008, 18:28
Is is just me or is the notion that Alex O'Connell winning a slot for Britain and not himself not a bit mad?

He won his own slot, not someone elses. (Congrats btw, amazing stuff, delighted for him).

But if for some reason it was decided that he was not allowed take the slot I would be of the opinion that no GBR deserves that slot. It should go to someone who came 3rd at the qualifying competition, or a wildcard.

Anyone?

canco
-27th April 2008, 18:30
The way I understand the rules on the FIE website, if the BOA decline Alex's place (which I think is highly unlikely), it is instead given to Boyko. (Who came third). The articles are implying that the BOA could, if they wanted, send another British fencer in Alex's place.

Oops, sorry, if that's the case ignore me...

Gangsta G
-27th April 2008, 19:11
Oops, sorry, if that's the case ignore me...That's how I interpreted the rules on the FIE website. http://www.fie.ch/download/homepage/en/Criteria%20for%20qualification%20OG-FIE-ang.pdf

If you have a look at this thread you'll see I've already been horribly wrong at least once before with my interpretation of the qualifying rules!

I agree with you though, it would be a bit weird if we sent another fencer in Alex's place! A bit like a football team qualifying for the Champions League but their place being given to the team below them... no wait that actually happened. He he.

pigeonmeister
-27th April 2008, 19:48
What seeding will he get?

Red
-27th April 2008, 20:11
What seeding will he get?

World ranking after the Europeans?
If the Europeans don't count, then after Las Vegas.

silvercross
-27th April 2008, 20:29
SHE WON!!!!!

SHE WON!!!!! :) :) :) :)

Jesica Jimenez won the qualifier in Queretaro! :not_worth :not_worth :not_worth :not_worth

Absolutely amazing! couldn't have happened to a nicer person. Really happy for her. Wish I could see the final score.

We have an epeeist going to the Olympics!

Now I can only hope our Olympic Committee stays on the right track and they can get her the training she deserves for Beijing.

Now, on to continue complaining about Bear Grylls and the way he's been carelessly killing every single creature in Panama (the farcical bufoon!)

madfencer
-27th April 2008, 20:34
Jesica Jimenez won the qualifier in Queretaro! :not_worth :not_worth :not_worth :not_worth

Brilliant! She was one of my training partners in Budapest. Lovely lady. :)

silvercross
-27th April 2008, 20:41
Cool! :)

Her qualifying is fantastic news for fencing in Panama.

She pulled out of the PanAm games in 2007 because of the problems with our Olympic Committee (being suspended for close to a year), and was considering retiring from the sport early (she's only 28) because of the irregularities in the OC at the time, so I am extremely happy for her. I fenced her in 2006 when I went back home and she is just amazing.

This is a an interview of her a couple of days before she left Panama for the Qualifier (yes, I'm very excited. Plus my sister is the newscaster who did the interview. And yes, it is in Spanish)

http://www.telemetro.com/videos.html?v=8h6zanyz14c7

Foilling Around
-27th April 2008, 21:11
SHE WON!!!!!

SHE WON!!!!! :) :) :) :)

Jesica Jimenez won the qualifier in Queretaro! :not_worth :not_worth :not_worth :not_worth

Absolutely amazing! couldn't have happened to a nicer person. Really happy for her. Wish I could see the final score.

We have an epeeist going to the Olympics!

Now I can only hope our Olympic Committee stays on the right track and they can get her the training she deserves for Beijing.

Now, on to continue complaining about Bear Grylls and the way he's been carelessly killing every single creature in Panama (the farcical bufoon!)

Its here

http://www.fie.ch/Competitions/ResultsTree.aspx?param=4DFE52CC8DF8C8B10DA9D0B9FE4 73653

silvercross
-27th April 2008, 22:07
Absolutely awesome!:)

Thanks for the info. This will be great news in Panama tomorrow morning.

Ronald Velden
-28th April 2008, 05:13
I do not want to put a dampener on the results from this weekend, but the
qualification of just one fencer for the Olympics is frankly disappointing albeit
not altogether surprising. Alex's result was probably
unexpected and therefore most pleasing.

This is Britain's poorest result since a qualification process was introduced
for Atlanta in 1996. I doubt that there has been an occasion since the
Olympics began that we had only one fencer in the Games.

I would also like to point out that in the past the excuse has been that
fencing was a poorly funded sport. That is certainly not the case with
our International Elite Programme now.

The sport needs to move on and plan for London 2012. It needs to recruit
World Class Coaches into the system and build an infrastructure and training
programme, which matches that of other countries.

One of the biggest problems in a sport like fencing is that there are probably
fewer than half a dozen fencers in the system with genuine world class
potential. That puts enormous pressure on them particularly if they are
not 100% fit.

It is of paramount importance that the sport builds a high quality cadet
structure so that even if they are not ready by 2012 there is at least
a legacy thereafter.

pinkelephant
-28th April 2008, 06:53
I do not want to put a dampener on the results from this weekend, but the
qualification of just one fencer for the Olympics is frankly disappointing albeit
not altogether surprising. Alex's result was probably
unexpected and therefore most pleasing.

This is Britain's poorest result since a qualification process was introduced
for Atlanta in 1996. I doubt that there has been an occasion since the
Olympics began that we had only one fencer in the Games.

I would also like to point out that in the past the excuse has been that
fencing was a poorly funded sport. That is certainly not the case with
our International Elite Programme now.

The sport needs to move on and plan for London 2012. It needs to recruit
World Class Coaches into the system and build an infrastructure and training
programme, which matches that of other countries.

One of the biggest problems in a sport like fencing is that there are probably
fewer than half a dozen fencers in the system with genuine world class
potential. That puts enormous pressure on them particularly if they are
not 100% fit.

It is of paramount importance that the sport builds a high quality cadet
structure so that even if they are not ready by 2012 there is at least
a legacy thereafter.

Wasn't James Beevers the only one to qualify for Sidney? Ellie got in later when somebody dropped out.

Boo Boo
-28th April 2008, 07:03
Wasn't James Beevers the only one to qualify for Sidney? Ellie got in later when somebody dropped out.

I am pretty sure that James Williams also went to Sydney (qualified, by right, by FIE ranking), but I could be getting my years/Olympics muddled...

Boo

Naughty foilist
-28th April 2008, 07:32
Congratulations to Alex.

P48 in the Sports Digest in The Independent, only about two column inches of press but mentions the placings of all our fencers.

It did occur to me that two Alex o'Connells will be heading for the Far East in August. The real one and the film one. The press may make more of it but 'The Mummy: Tomb of the Dragon Emperor' opens on 08/08/08, incuding a 21 year old Alex O'Connell as one of the characters.

I hope our Alex sparkles more than theirs, :)

Ronald Velden
-28th April 2008, 08:13
Yes Fiona McIntosh and Ellie Smith did not qualify, but we still sent two
fencers to the Olympics. The difference is that the chance of Britain
receiving a second discretionary slot is remote this time.

Our only chance as I understand it is if one of the three foilists ahead of Richard in European Zonal Qualifier were not to be selected by their
Federations or drop out through injury or illness. The chances of that
happening are frankly not high.

Ronald Velden
-28th April 2008, 08:13
Yes Fiona McIntosh and Ellie Smith did not qualify, but we still sent two
fencers to the Olympics. The difference is that the chance of Britain
receiving a second discretionary slot is remote this time.

Our only chance as I understand it is if one of the three foilists ahead of Richard in European Zonal Qualifier were not to be selected by their
Federations or drop out through injury or illness. The chances of that
happening are frankly not high.

Ronald Velden
-28th April 2008, 08:13
Yes Fiona McIntosh and Ellie Smith did not qualify, but we still sent two
fencers to the Olympics. The difference is that the chance of Britain
receiving a second discretionary slot is remote this time.

Our only chance as I understand it is if one of the three foilists ahead of Richard in European Zonal Qualifier were not to be selected by their
Federations or drop out through injury or illness. The chances of that
happening are frankly not high.

tigger
-28th April 2008, 08:21
James W made the L16 at Sydney, beating Nemcsik in the L32.

tigger
-28th April 2008, 08:38
From memory, a quarte parry-riposte at 14-10 up...

funkygibbon
-28th April 2008, 08:45
And James's reaction to that victory was perfectly captured in this image : http://tinyurl.com/2gmb8a

Would love to see that fight - shame they didn't have YouTube then!

silvercross
-28th April 2008, 09:05
While these olympic qualifiers might not have given as many berths for the UK as might have been expected, it does not mean a grim picture for 2012.

The Juniors and Cadets have been producing some impressive displays in the last few years, and they will be coming of age for the London games. It is a matter of keeping the bar high for the next few years so they and the rest of the olympic pool athletes can peak in time for 2012.

Did BF have a responsibility to produce a medal at Beijing? Had this been the case, well, it might still happen.

daoud
-28th April 2008, 09:48
The sport needs to move on and plan for London 2012. It needs to recruit
World Class Coaches into the system and build an infrastructure and training
programme, which matches that of other countries.



Yes, full-time salaried world class coaches must be recruited. It is vital to manage the transition from Cadet/Junior fencing to the senior level better, and to avoid the serious drop-out rate as our promising young fencers get critically involved with 'A' levels and university entrance. The universities then have a crucial role to play in joining with BFA to provide funding, facilites and top-class coaching to our Juniors and young Seniors.

silvercross
-28th April 2008, 09:56
Yes, full-time salaried world class coaches must be recruited. It is vital to manage the transition from Cadet/Junior fencing to the senior level better, and to avoid the serious drop-out rate as our promising young fencers get critically involved with 'A' levels and university entrance. The universities then have a crucial role to play in joining with BFA to provide funding, facilites and top-class coaching to our Juniors and young Seniors.

I think the topic has been discussed in the Universities section. While I would fully agree with you, most universities in the UK simply cannot afford (or so they tell us) to budget for these activities. The 'complementary' system that exists in US universities is a lot more difficult to replicate here (plus in the US the running of athletics is much more determined by a much more centralised athletics department, whereas here, a lot of the responsibility is placed on student elected committees).

Either there would have to be radical changes in UK university athletics, or such endeavours would only concentrate themselves on the few universities with the resources to run these programmes in a competent, professional manner.

Red
-28th April 2008, 10:15
Yes, full-time salaried world class coaches must be recruited. It is vital to manage the transition from Cadet/Junior fencing to the senior level better, and to avoid the serious drop-out rate as our promising young fencers get critically involved with 'A' levels and university entrance. The universities then have a crucial role to play in joining with BFA to provide funding, facilites and top-class coaching to our Juniors and young Seniors.

You want it? Then expect to pay tuition fees of £10000/year. As things stand, Universities in GB simply can't afford it.

And yes, there are one or two exceptions.

Back to the thread, it's a shame to see just one qualify (admittedly, one of the least likely of the bunch) - perhaps more of a shame to see 2 go out at the poules.

septic_belgian
-28th April 2008, 12:44
I The 'complementary' system that exists in US universities is a lot more difficult to replicate here (plus in the US the running of athletics is much more determined by a much more centralised athletics department, whereas here, a lot of the responsibility is placed on student elected committees).


Having attended an American university, I saw the sports department in action, and you have what are called the revenue generating sports, which include; basketball, ice hockey and American Football which fund the rest of the sports department for secondary sports such softball, athletics, fencing etc. The revenue generating sports at big universities are professional in all but name, with Universities receiving millions in TV rights and sponshorship. The Football stadium at my university had a capacity of 77,000 seats which was sold out for every home game, and that was in a town with a population of 250,000. And I am sure that the fencing program at Notre Dame is heavily subsidized by the success of the football team.

ChubbyHubby
-28th April 2008, 12:52
See http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A35246018

Why are they making such a thing about Alex O'Connell's place "could be offered to another team mate"? When as far as I know they can't actually say offer a sabre place to a foilist etc. It's hardly going to go to another sabreur is it? (or they'd have sent that sabreur to the qualifiers instead).

and they can't seem to get their names right either:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics/fencing/7369611.stm

Ronald Velden
-28th April 2008, 15:27
Ref;Septic Belgian

You may be interested to learn that the girl who won this year's World
Junior EpeeChampionship is a student at Notre Dame University and her coach there is Marek Stepien who was working in London until 18 months
ago!

Australian
-28th April 2008, 16:36
Ref;Septic Belgian

You may be interested to learn that the girl who won this year's World
Junior EpeeChampionship is a student at Notre Dame University and her coach there is Marek Stepien who was working in London until 18 months
ago!

She also won the cadet world championship 4 years ago when, presumably, she wasn't at Notre Dame.

Nothing against Marek and his achievements obviously, but your argument isn't as conclusive as you claim it to be.

silvercross
-28th April 2008, 17:20
I have to agree with Red that this current line of thought is kind of deviating from the thread, but I'd be more than happy to start a thread in the uni section about 'Should Universities in the UK be investing more in being vehicles for the training of our top athletes?' (I like it, might start a poll as well):)

daoud
-28th April 2008, 20:01
'Should Universities in the UK be investing more in being vehicles for the training of our top athletes?' excellence

Yes, the issue has been raised here before. Personally I think it's the only way to promote post-Cadet fencing excellence. The interested universities (and there are two or three out there) will need to go in for substantial fund-raising and sponsorship in the same way they presently do for their world-class research facilities. If they're convinced it's worth it. BFA has a role to play here.
(Siobhan Byrne is at Ohio State isn't she ? Same as LBW.)

canco
-28th April 2008, 21:06
(Siobhan Byrne is at Ohio State isn't she ? Same as LBW.)

Yup, Siobhán's in Ohio State. Not sure about the other.

Foilling Around
-28th April 2008, 21:14
Yes Fiona McIntosh and Ellie Smith did not qualify, but we still sent two
fencers to the Olympics. The difference is that the chance of Britain
receiving a second discretionary slot is remote this time.

Our only chance as I understand it is if one of the three foilists ahead of Richard in European Zonal Qualifier were not to be selected by their
Federations or drop out through injury or illness. The chances of that
happening are frankly not high.

Except the 6? wild card slots the FIE now have available. Given his L8 in 2004 and the fact that we have the Olympics in 2012, perhaps the BFA should be lobbying for RK for a wild card. If such lobbying is possible.

septic_belgian
-28th April 2008, 21:33
Yup, Siobhán's in Ohio State. Not sure about the other.

And Ohio State is another US University with a top ranked football and basketball team which would help to fund secondary sports like fencing, same as Notre Dame. The sports facilities at these universities are self funding thank to the money generated by their American football, basketball and Ice Hockey teams. I am not sure that you can make a comparison with UK universities where you do not having this same funding possibility. The closest comparison would be having fencing clubs funded by first division football teams in the UK on the back of their gate receipts and TV rights, which will never happen.

Ronald Velden
-28th April 2008, 21:45
Ref: Australian

The point I made was that Marek Stepien worked in London for many years
and has been the coach of this girl at Notre Dame. He is even mentioned
by her in an interview on the Notre Dame Website.

I see and speak to Marek quite often when he comes back here and his
heart is set on returning to London if the right job became available.

Ref: foiling Around

Frankly the selection of Richard is a very long shot. Richard was very unlucky,
because he got injured at the wrong time and it caught up sadly with him in
Lisbon. Fortunately Richard is an extremely professional and positive athlete
and I know that he will come back stronger for the experience next time in London 2012.

Red
-29th April 2008, 04:28
I'm very tired, so I apologise if this sounds a little blunt.

Why on earth was the Olympic effort for Beijing exclusively aimed at individual qualification? The feeling I get here when the senior worlds happened is always that the main event is the individual and that the team is not important at all. If you want success, the best way to do it is to have three fencers in one individual event - they might get 'lucky' and draw each other - make it one fencer and you're relying on him (he's human - he might screw up, what if he gets injured in the first round?) to get the result.

pinkelephant
-29th April 2008, 06:09
I'm very tired, so I apologise if this sounds a little blunt.

Why on earth was the Olympic effort for Beijing exclusively aimed at individual qualification? The feeling I get here when the senior worlds happened is always that the main event is the individual and that the team is not important at all. If you want success, the best way to do it is to have three fencers in one individual event - they might get 'lucky' and draw each other - make it one fencer and you're relying on him (he's human - he might screw up, what if he gets injured in the first round?) to get the result.

It wasn't. Teams fenced all over the place this year. They didn't qualify.

Foilling Around
-29th April 2008, 06:31
Ref: foiling Around

Frankly the selection of Richard is a very long shot. Richard was very unlucky,
because he got injured at the wrong time and it caught up sadly with him in
Lisbon. Fortunately Richard is an extremely professional and positive athlete
and I know that he will come back stronger for the experience next time in London 2012.

I agree it is a long shot, but there are many fencers who cannot be chosen because their country has full representation.

There is also the fact that the wild cards have to spread over 6 weapons

I suspect that the FIE/IOC will give the wild cards to fencers from countries with no representation of the grounds of spreading the words round the world.

In many ways that is in the spirit of the original ideals fo the Olympic movement! As well as being part of RRs bid for world domination.

Though on RK but he is one in a long list of athletes over the years who has got injured at the wrong time and missed out.

pinkelephant
-29th April 2008, 07:01
There is also at least one reigning Olympic Champion who has not qualified - Marcel Fischer is the second ranked Swiss Men's Epeeist so has not qualified.

Captain Penguin
-29th April 2008, 08:49
The Olympic qualifying criteria published on the FIE website state that
places unused by the host country will be reallocated by the Tripartite
Commission. It also states that applications for Tripartite Commission
Invitation places had to be submitted by 15/11/07.

Did the BOA apply?

Joe

Gangsta G
-29th April 2008, 11:43
Although Red is wrong in that we did send teams to team events and they didn't qualify, I think he has a point in that team events do not appear to be taken as seriously as individual events, yet they're just as valid a chance of winning medals!

I seem to remember hearing at some point, either on this forum on another thread or when talking to someone, that the French train their men's sabreurs specifically for team events. Hence, they have the best team in the world, but as individuals, none of them are truly dominant. Certainly they're all good individuals (16, 18, 20, 22 in FIE rankings), but they're fairly inconsistent; none of them regularly make beyond a L32 at international level.

Obviously, as well, the best way of qualifying 3 fencers in one weapon is by qualifying the team. I suppose our problem, at the moment, is that we don't have the strength in depth.

Red
-29th April 2008, 12:08
WST - ranked 12th, missed out on qualification by 5 places.
MST - 18th, missed out by 13.
MET - 22nd, missed out by 17.
WFT - 14th, missed out by 8.

MF, WS and WF only got 16s, WE and ME mainly got 32s while MS is mixed between the two. Throughout this season a last 16 has been seen as 'good' when clearly it isn't good enough.
Teams that qualified by Europe zone consistently got at least last 8s as a matter of routine.

My original point (which may not have been transcribed from mind to keyboard) was that if you seriously want to qualify take the team seriously - and that with the exception of RK, the lack of an Olympic space is not just due to failure at the qualifier.

ChubbyHubby
-29th April 2008, 13:45
WST - ranked 12th, missed out on qualification by 5 places.
MST - 18th, missed out by 13.
MET - 22nd, missed out by 17.
WFT - 14th, missed out by 8.

MF, WS and WF only got 16s, WE and ME mainly got 32s while MS is mixed between the two. Throughout this season a last 16 has been seen as 'good' when clearly it isn't good enough.

You also need to look at the number of team events attended too. I think WFT didn't do that many? ie. would any of the teams be even closer or even making it if they went to more events?

Red
-29th April 2008, 14:03
You also need to look at the number of team events attended too. I think WFT didn't do that many? ie. would any of the teams be even closer or even making it if they went to more events?

WET did a mighty 2,
MET did 8,
WFT did 7,
MFT did 7,
WST did 7 and
MST did 6.

(WET and MFT ranked 31st and 10th respectively are added for completeness).

MS didn't send anyone to Algiers (a GP), so the team rank could've improved. WF have been to every GP and CHM/Z this season and last, so have had every opportunity to score (and admittedly, their results haven't been too far behind MFT).

cesh_fencing
-29th April 2008, 14:08
You also need to look at the number of team events attended too. I think WFT didn't do that many? ie. would any of the teams be even closer or even making it if they went to more events?

WFTs attended 7 of the 10 possible events, however did miss out on the 3 supposedly weakest events which could indicate that GB tactics of where teams were sent could have been better, however I am unsure how many non-europe events european teams can count in their team world ranking.

I have a feeling they failed to get in the top 8 of any event that the team competed at and all the top 8 world ranked teams made the top 8 at pretty much every event. The gap in Ladies Foil is really large at present between those qualified and those between 12 & 16.

Red
-29th April 2008, 14:16
WFTs attended 7 of the 10 possible events, however did miss out on the 3 supposedly weakest events which could indicate that GB tactics of where teams were sent could have been better, however I am unsure how many non-europe events european teams can count in their team world ranking.

I have a feeling they failed to get in the top 8 of any event that the team competed at and all the top 8 world ranked teams made the top 8 at pretty much every event. The gap in Ladies Foil is really large at present between those qualified and those between 12 & 16.

WF went to every GP (with both individual and team entries) this year and last.
They missed out on Liepzig (A) this season, Vegas (A), Buenos Aires (A) and Cairo (A) last year.
They went to everything else.

cesh_fencing
-29th April 2008, 14:20
They went to everything else.

I stand corrected, the events they did not attend were the other regional championships..

Boo Boo
-29th April 2008, 18:27
WET did a mighty 2,
MET did 8,
WFT did 7,
MFT did 7,
WST did 7 and
MST did 6.

(WET and MFT ranked 31st and 10th respectively are added for completeness).

I am under the impression that, unlike the other 5 weapons, WE do not get funded to do team events.... (i.e. they have to pay for everything themelves including, sometimes, the team entry fee - which is pretty substantial...).

Boo

housewigger
-29th April 2008, 18:48
**PLEASE READ IF YOU'VE POSTED ANYTHING ON THIS THREAD**

I ended up here because I was curious about how Saturday the 26th went. I wasn't a member, but some of the material on this thread really got under my skin, so i joined.

Firstly, can we please stop coming up BLAMING British Fencers, coaches and administrative staff for the poor numbers qualified. I know Richard and Jojo personally, they are exceptionally talented and dedicated. I also know their coaches and they damn well are world class, so no need for recruitment there. The system in place in Britain is not far from ideal and a hell of a lot better than 2 years ago. Youth mens foil is as strong as it's been since the Kruse/Halsted European winning seasons, the mens Epee squad often produce World Class results (L16s, I'm not just clutching at Heidenheim) though consistency is an issue, and the Women's sabre team is also strong. The dominant fencing countries have had such a system in place for DECADES. Ours will take a long time to filter into the youth and thicken up the numbers of such talented fencers.

Qualifying via a zonal tournament is always going to be unreliable. Upsets happen left right and centre in Fencing, and I think the selection process is absurd. Richard and Cherimisinov were by far the favourites to qualify in Lisbon and neither did, despite being ranked 12th and 23rd in the world. It shouldn't come down to a single fight to 15. Best of 3 would be a start (bloody sure Richard and Cherimisinov would have qualified that way), but coming up with an entirely new selection process would be a lot better.

Secondly our team results ARE NOT POOR and we certainately did try to qualify in the weapons that we stood even a slim chance in (ME and WS). Take a look at how Brits are ranked individually and you'll soon see the team rankings reflect this. WE ARE A WEAK FENCING NATION, STRENGTHENING AT A GOOD RATE.

Please keep any offensive opinions to yourself if you are a Uni fencer from Liverpool! You are clearly extremely poorly informed and I do not think you are in a position to criticise.

Mr. Velden, I agree with some of your opinions, I just think your expectations are unrealistic.

FRANKLY, YES IT'S DISAPPOINTING THAT ONLY ONE FENCER HAS QUALIFIED FOR BEIJING. YES, THAT'S FEWER THAN IN PREVIOUS YEARS. BUT NO, THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE SHAPE OF FENCING IN THE UK IS WORSE THAN IT WAS 4 YEARS AGO.

funkygibbon
-29th April 2008, 20:54
If you read the start of this thread you will see that 35+ members were online watching, hoping and waiting to see what the results were. As far as I can see, everyone has been congratulatory and full of best wishes for those competing and offered sincere comisserations to those that missed out on qualification. I'm not entirely sure who has "blamed" fencers, the system, coaches or anything else for the results, but looking back through the thread I can see a lot of heartfelt support and appropriate discussion of the event and results.

Foilling Around
-29th April 2008, 21:14
**PLEASE READ IF YOU'VE POSTED ANYTHING ON THIS THREAD**



Welcome to the forum housewigger - I may or may not know you but welcome anyway. You obviously have informed and firm opinions so I hope this is not you last contribution to this hot air generator.

So, I've posted on this thread so I have obeyed the instruction to read you post!

Actually I read most of the threads from the "University fencers in Liverpool", who I presume is Panamanian, and I did not find their points critical or offensive. Come on folks, if the England Football team bristled every time a "fan" commented or criticised then they would be constantly enraged.

We all know that we are currently reaping the benefits of a vastly underfunded system from the past 10 years when the rest of the world had been getting more professional. That is not going to change overnight.

Simply saying that JW and RK are talented and hard working and that their coaches are world class does not change the truth of the qualifications.

Yes we have a few world class coaches, but that does not mean that we don't need more. France, China, Italy etc are not operating with just one top class coach in each weapon. We don't have the time to breed them internally before 2012/16 and the only solutions are to import the coaches or send the top fencers abroad..... or both.

Our team results, in absolute terms, are poor but that does not mean that our fencers did not achieve to their current ability or at times beyond it. It is not a criticism of the effort of the fencers. It means, as you say, that we are a weak fencing nation with a few very good fencers and not much strength in depth at senior level. Again as you say, hopefully the new structures and funding will bring about change as the current cadet/junior crop progress.

Finally, fencing ability is not an indicator of right to comment/criticise. In fact there are times when an analytical mind looking from the outside can make more reasoned judgments than someone closely involved inside the system.

That is not to say that I or any other contributor to this thread has such a mind, but that you need to take account of your own bias when commenting on others.

cesh_fencing
-29th April 2008, 21:21
BUT NO, THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE SHAPE OF FENCING IN THE UK IS WORSE THAN IT WAS 4 YEARS AGO.

I agree that state of British Fencing is in a far better position and the fencers are better supported and the fencers available now are possible better than 4 years ago.

Unfortunately the number of fencers who qualify for the Olympics per event is lower than it has ever been and every other country has made this forward step as well (and in some cases started the process earlier so are further ahead ) and that is why british fencers are finding it so tough to qualify.

I do not feel anyone on this thread has said all british fencers are unable to fence, most put in huge amounts of effort to do well, but effort in fencing is rarely enough.. Mostly people are disappointed that we have only a single fencer to support & follow at the Olympics.

I personally feel we will see a big change in between 5 to 10 years as there is probably the biggest group of good juniors (currently 12/13/14) that I have seen in 20 years coming through the ranks, though we need to ensure they keep competing.

Ronald Velden
-29th April 2008, 21:24
Ref: housewigger
I did not have too high expectations, because I have been aware for some
time that it would be tough for British Fencers to get more than 2 Qualifiers.

I also know both Jo Hutchinson and Richard Kruse who are as you have expressed both professional and dedicated athletes. Richard was a contemporary of my daughter and has coached at the club I run for over
3 years and Jo also comes quite often to the club as Ian Williams [her
coach] and Gildas Braine [her boyfriend] are also coaches there as well.

What I have expreessed is that the system is currently overdependent on
a very limited number of fencers who are world class and we need to
develop a much stronger base from cadet level upwards.

Sadly the shortage of top class coaches [not just in Britain] does have an
impact on the system including at Camden who have lost in recent weeks
4 coaches to the National Programme with consequential impact on the
young fencers coming through our programme.

wilbur
-29th April 2008, 21:48
Ronald, you are posting personal information about third parties which you may think common knowledge but which on a public forum may not be appropriate.

Do you have permission from these individuals to post details of their personal lives?

Wilbur.

housewigger
-29th April 2008, 23:06
My anger comes from a general downbeat attitude towards the pathway, and people concluding way too much from rather a fickle Olympic qualifying process. Many people put their entire lives into international fencing, and many of you here are happy to criticise (albeit not explicitly) from your armchairs at a time when they may be extremely downbeat.

An apology. The two points that really aggrevated me were "we haven't tried to qualify teams" and "we need to recruit world class coaches into the system". The former was NOT posted by the liverpudian but a fencer from leicester, "Red", who had made an advanced apology for the sensitive nature. jumped the gun there a bit..

Ability is absolutely not a prerequisit to criticise, but information (and preferably involvement) are.

The England football team analogue is pretty crushing, gotta give you that one. And I agree with the stop moaning and get on with it attitude. That said, I think comments here are on a slightly more personal level than a newspaper and fencers are far less financially accountable than international football stars. (Pathway fencers often give up employment for comparatively small sums of money or even just expenses.)

Red
-30th April 2008, 08:40
An apology. The two points that really aggrevated me were "we haven't tried to qualify teams" and "we need to recruit world class coaches into the system". The former was NOT posted by the liverpudian but a fencer from leicester, "Red", who had made an advanced apology for the sensitive nature. jumped the gun there a bit..

From very early on this season (maybe earlier) the materials published by the performance director suggested that 'we've got no hope, the only way we'll get a fencer qualified is via the qualifier - unless we get an unexpected result or five'.

http://www.britishfencing.com/British_Fencing.asp?PageID=855

I also fed results and points to the performance director and was part of the Olympic qualification mailing list.

silvercross
-30th April 2008, 09:20
Actually I read most of the threads from the "University fencers in Liverpool", who I presume is Panamanian, and I did not find their points critical or offensive. Come on folks, if the England Football team bristled every time a "fan" commented or criticised then they would be constantly enraged.

I am indeed Panamanian, and I also re-read all of my comments to see where I might have denigrated or insulted British fencing or the individual fencers (I don't think I have), but can't seem to see where I did so to offend howsewigger in such a manner.:shrug:

silvercross
-30th April 2008, 09:30
Never mind...

Should have continued to read thread. No offense taken. Have called off our mighty, mighty navy from blockading the british naval fleet, and canoeists seeking to fake their deaths and relocate to Panama are now welcomed again :tongue:

Marcos
-30th April 2008, 09:39
for what it's worth, I agree with housewigger and some of what Ronald has said

UK Fencing is in a state of real improvement

The truth of the matter is that there are plenty of other countries in the world who are also investing in the sport, making all 6 weapons hugely competitive.

More and more athletes around the world are training at a high level, but there are fewer and fewer places at the Olympics available

Beijing as come very early in the pathway - London 2012 will be the real test, with 2016 (Baku??) just as important

Congratulations to the two Irish Fencers Siobhan Byrne and Alex O'Connell ;)

To JoJo and RK, hopefully they can take inspiration from Siobhan's amazing efforts the last 4 years after what happened in '04.

PM1
-30th April 2008, 10:06
"Ability is absolutely not a prerequisit to criticise, but information (and preferably involvement) are."

What a lot of us have been saying for some time, housewigger, and not a lot of either are apparent.

Ronald Velden
-30th April 2008, 11:06
I want to close my comments o this thread by saying the following:

1. Six years ago Fencing was an amateur sport in Britain with no serious
external funding and reliant primarily on volunteers.

2. It was run like a cottage industry and the international results and
expectations reflected that.

3. Today the international programme at senior level is fairly well resourced.
There are radical changes taking place within the infrastructure of the
sport. We have seen the appointment of a full-time Chief Executive who
was fortuitously appointed from outside the sport.

4. Graham Watts role as Performance Director has also been evolving. It is
frankly a learning curve for him as well, because there has been no
precedent before. There is a lot of catching up to do if we are to match
programmes in other sports or countries.

5. My comments about world class coaches may have caused offence in
certain quarters. However, you have to recognize that only one of our
National Coaches has previous experience in that role. That was Ziemek
who was previously made redundant in 1993 when the AFA ran out of
money.

6. In most successful programmes the top coaches are part of a successful
system. You start at the bottom of the ladder and are gradually working
your way up. Britain appointed coaches from within its own system who
were thrown frankly in the deep end.

7. Most of our international fencers have no previous experience of being
professional athletes or indeed training in a scientific sports regime. This
is something which has been foisted on them in the last 2 years and
is a culture shock for many. Some cannot cope with it whilst others
will need time to bed in. Hopefully by 2012 we will reap the rewards.

8. My main concern is that as many have suggested before is that the
programme is ongoing post 2012 and that the development of fencing
below our senior teams receives the same attention as in other sports
and countries. At present I need to be convinced that this is happening.

Keith.A.Smith
-30th April 2008, 14:48
Dear All,

Firstly well done to Alex.

Secondly clearly BFA is sorry that not more fencers qualified. Tjnhey agceof their best but to qualify from Europe is not easy.

Thirdly our system will bear more fruit by 2012.

Fouthly we have applied for the Wild Card route to Beijing

Finally, I and the BFA are looking beyond 2012 and I was the person who pushed strongly for the appointment of a CEO to help me and our sport.

Keith

Red
-30th April 2008, 15:36
Tjnhey agceof their best but to qualify from Europe is not easy.

Don't quite understand the start of this... They gave/tried/fenced?

Baldric
-30th April 2008, 16:05
Don't quite understand the start of this... They gave/tried/fenced?

"They gave of their best" ?

I think Keith has big fingers and a small keyboard.

Swords Crossed
-30th April 2008, 16:11
I think Keith has big fingers and a small keyboard.

Maybe if he were to try typing with one finger, point control would do the rest? ;)

Gangsta G
-30th April 2008, 19:32
1. Six years ago Fencing was an amateur sport in Britain with no serious external funding and reliant primarily on volunteers.Surely this is still (almost) the case? Fencing benefits from more funding than previously, but there are very few professionals in the sport, either fencers or at board level.

Foilling Around
-30th April 2008, 22:01
As my final posting on this subject can I suggest that we push to move Great Britain to Africa where in any event except running distances over 400metres, it is much easier to qualify for the Olympics!!!

(Before anyone takes offence I do fully realise the negative sides of living in the poorest continent on the globe for the majority of the population and that easier Olympic qualification is small recompense!!!)

Adam Blight
-30th April 2008, 22:53
I think we should be fully suportive of the development of fencing throughout the world. When other zones are as tough as Europe and we have a genuine global sport, then opportunities will become more equitable.

Gangsta G
-30th April 2008, 23:53
As my final posting on this subject can I suggest that we push to move Great Britain to Africa where in any event except running distances over 400metres, it is much easier to qualify for the Olympics!!!

(Before anyone takes offence I do fully realise the negative sides of living in the poorest continent on the globe for the majority of the population and that easier Olympic qualification is small recompense!!!)Alternatively, we could all move in favour of the UK Independence Party? Then at least the UK would not longer be a part of Europe!

Foilling Around
-1st May 2008, 06:27
Alternatively, we could all move in favour of the UK Independence Party? Then at least the UK would not longer be a part of Europe!

Do you think Rene takes any notice of the EU, he's more powerful than that!!

silvercross
-1st May 2008, 08:36
Shortcomings of the past qualifier aside, let's remember that the UK has managed to qualify a fencer to the Olympics Games, and the focus should be on this fencer's upcoming preparations for this date and our positive 'vibes' (maaaaan) must be with him as he embarks on this journey as British Fencing's representative in Beijing.

A bird in the hand being worth two in the bush and all (or 100 flying in our less developed countries :p ).

Swords Crossed
-1st May 2008, 10:28
Very well done to Alex (after all, I couldn't have qualified for the Olympics, could I?). It's a shame we couldn't qualify anyone else, but as people seem to be saying, there is always the wildcard route for Kruse. Speaking of which, and at the risk of sounding obtuse, how exactly does the 'Wildcard route' work?

Marcos
-23rd February 2010, 14:41
hi
does anyone have a link to all the qualifier results from two years ago?

i cant seem to find them

Gangsta G
-23rd February 2010, 16:44
Try contacting the European federation?

Gildas Braine
-23rd February 2010, 22:27
Here: http://www.nahouw.net/page/trn_res/?season=2007
The results are all there, look for the date: 26/04/08