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View Full Version : New Foil Target and BUSA rules



Swords Crossed
-26th May 2008, 15:23
Does anyone know whether BUSA (or BUCS as we shall be calling it in september) intends to enforce the change in target area from January or the start of the 2009-10 season? I have my fingers crossed for the latter.

Red
-26th May 2008, 16:06
Does anyone know whether BUSA (or BUCS as we shall be calling it in september) intends to enforce the change in target area from January or the start of the 2009-10 season? I have my fingers crossed for the latter.

I'd assume it's be when the BFA decide to. The BUSA regs state somewhere that the NGB rules MUST be followed.

Keith.A.Smith
-26th May 2008, 19:04
Dear All,

The new foil regs are on the agenda for the Board meeting in July.

I imagine we would want to move slowly as even the FIE have not worked out then logistics as yet.

Keith

Foilling Around
-26th May 2008, 21:44
Remember that even the FIE have Jan 09 for Senior FIE events and Sept 09 for Junior WCs.

Red
-26th May 2008, 22:13
At Leicester, we've asked for 1000 to cover the ideal scenario where we aquire 10ish FIE masks.
If we get the money for use next season, we'll buy them as soon as LP have them on sale so that we're ready for when the change happens.
We're working on the basis that the change will happen after the nationals next year and that the masks will be available next season.
With any luck BF will soon inform us of the timescales and we'll adjust plans accordingly.

(Not aimed at Liverpool, but at Uni club types generally) You know its coming, so ask for the money NOW! There is more than enough time to work out how to get the money to do it with if your AU are tighter than the back end of a duck. If your uni club committee is halfway competent, you won't be left feeling like a prat when it comes. So please don't cry about it a year from now, or I'll shout at you and your shortsighted predecessors.

The_Boy_ODwyer
-27th May 2008, 16:11
If your uni club committee is halfway competent, you won't be left feeling like a prat when it comes. So please don't cry about it a year from now, or I'll shout at you and your shortsighted predecessors.

That seems rather unfair, I know for a fact that many university fencing clubs operate on an incredibly small budget and as such asking for even an extra 2-300 may be beyond them.

I have already budgeted for the change but will probably be complaining about it anyway.

Red
-27th May 2008, 16:51
That seems rather unfair, I know for a fact that many university fencing clubs operate on an incredibly small budget and as such asking for even an extra 2-300 may be beyond them.

I have already budgeted for the change but will probably be complaining about it anyway.

Anybody suitably determined and inventive should be able to get together a few hundred pounds in a year and a bit - and upgrading old masks would probably be relatively cheap.

The_Boy_ODwyer
-27th May 2008, 18:08
I'm sure most clubs should manage a fairly smooth transition.

Still annoying, especially seeing as I never use them stoopid pointy things :sabre2:

Red
-27th May 2008, 18:11
I'm sure most clubs should manage a fairly smooth transition.

Still annoying, especially seeing as I never use them stoopid pointy things :sabre2:

Foil has its perks... Don't know if I'd want to carry on mucking about with it though.

Gangsta G
-27th May 2008, 19:12
Foil has its perks...Call 999, Red has gone off the boil

Swords Crossed
-27th May 2008, 20:24
You know its coming, so ask for the money NOW! There is more than enough time to work out how to get the money to do it with if your AU are tighter than the back end of a duck. If your uni club committee is halfway competent, you won't be left feeling like a prat when it comes. So please don't cry about it a year from now, or I'll shout at you and your shortsighted predecessors.

In our defence (and yes, I know you didn't aim it Liverpool :) ) we have already informed our Sports directorate (now a uni department) of the situation, told them we'll need the dough, and are constantly on the lookout for ways of making our weedy, pathetic, potted money-tree blossom more, but it nevertheless would be handy to know precisely what's going on, which is why I asked.

ps. Thanks for the status update Keith

TLove
-28th May 2008, 00:13
TBH, /agree with O'Dwyer here... some Uni clubs will have problems making the transition as they are less well off than others. I think it's somewhat disingenuous to assume that this is always the fault of the relevant club committee.

As a member of a more affluent/successful University club which can easily afford such things, it's easy to imagine that no-one could possibly have a problem - but we certainly can't say that everyone MUST be able to get the required cash.

But meh - having said that, it's nowhere near the changes for the new white kit regs when they came out a few years back. Shouldn't be a major issue.

Gangsta G
-28th May 2008, 00:45
When the foil & sabre timings were changed in 2005, didn't BUSA allow Universities a season to adapt? In which case, maybe they will for the introduction of the bib in foil.


But meh - having said that, it's nowhere near the changes for the new white kit regs when they came out a few years back. Shouldn't be a major issue.Eh? What was this?

Red
-28th May 2008, 01:49
When the foil & sabre timings were changed in 2005, didn't BUSA allow Universities a season to adapt? In which case, maybe they will for the introduction of the bib in foil.

Eh? What was this?

Back in the dawn of time, (2000ish?) it was announced that on 1st January 2006 all kit must conform to CEN1 or higher and CEN2 plastrons for all growed up fencing but steam foil. Some unis were well aware of this and started replacing kit bit by bit straight away - others didn't until the last minute and much crying occurred.
Same theme applies here - plan, ask for the money needed (emphasising how absolutely essential it is, particularly if the club is successful when compared to other uni sports clubs) and ask for your wildest dreams (10 new FIE masks) - if the money is short of this, then you should have enough to cope (upgrade 5 old masks). Uni clubs are theoretically run by intelligent people, so the planning and the asking shouldn't be too much of a problem. If AU is too tight and doesn't want to give anything, revise the joining and session fees.
Tis dead easy really.

Gangsta G
-28th May 2008, 03:17
Back in the dawn of time, (2000ish?) it was announced that on 1st January 2006 all kit must conform to CEN1 or higher and CEN2 plastrons for all growed up fencing but steam foil. Some unis were well aware of this and started replacing kit bit by bit straight away - others didn't until the last minute and much crying occurred. Oh yes of course... I TLove's refence to 'white kit' made me think it was some rule about colour!

TLove
-28th May 2008, 14:20
Oh yes of course... I TLove's refence to 'white kit' made me think it was some rule about colour!

Something like "All gloves must no longer be 'unwashed glove' colour"?

Swords Crossed
-28th May 2008, 16:17
Something like "All gloves must no longer be 'unwashed glove' colour"?

Sacrilege! WASHED, club gloves? Surely the absorption of other fencers' old sweat through the hand is what inducts beginners into the 'hive mind' - you know, fast and mean for foilists, slow and grouchy for epeeists and 'Ug! [SMACK]' for sabreurs?

That aside, the reason I asked the question in the first place was that even with the most well funded club [which we are not - if you want to know what it's like getting money out of our AU, think of someone leaving the cash on top of everest, surrounded by polar bears, and giving you 3 days to get it in nothing but your boxers and one of those blunt plastic knives they give you on aeroplanes], it still helps for financial planning if you know whether you'll have to fork out 700 odd by this november or next september. We'll find the money as we always have in the past, as I suspect most but the least well off or well run clubs, but an extra 9 months in hand would make it a lot easier.

Bambi
-29th May 2008, 11:41
Uni clubs surely only need a handful of the new masks to start off with for BUSA, slowly over the year they can get more to loan to beginners if needed. Those members in the club who compete on a regular basis should have their own.

I do agree with Red though, if Uni clubs know the change is comming they should get ready for it. Back in my day when they brought in the new clothing regs i had quotes and proposals ready to give our AU at the start of the new term.

pinkelephant
-29th May 2008, 12:29
Make sure all the members of your team have the same size head, then you only need one - for matches. Possibly 2 if MF and WF have a match at the same time or if you have a 2nd team.

The_Boy_ODwyer
-29th May 2008, 13:00
How would you modify the size of someone's head to fit?

TLove
-29th May 2008, 13:07
I suspect we could create a Device to do such.

Or just base team selection on head size. Cloning fencers could also be an option, although I found it's difficult to get funding for that.

Bambi
-29th May 2008, 13:17
A vice and hammer would do the trick.

Although would probably be easier getting one rather large mask. They may end up looking like the churchill dog and they come down the piste though!!

pinkelephant
-29th May 2008, 18:19
How would you modify the size of someone's head to fit?

First establish who has the largest head. Then tell all the others how wonderful they are until their heads have grown to the same size. Simple.:D

In all seriousness though, you should never use a mask that is too big - not only can it come off, but it can tip backwards on the head, allowing a point to slip up underneath. I've seen it happen at sabre, and it wasn't pretty - it's a good job the blade didn't break.

Swords Crossed
-30th May 2008, 14:13
I had thought of using a bicycle pump, but then realised that mixing pressurised air and high speed impacts is probably not the greatest of ideas, so we're stuck with having to buy different sized masks.

besides that, the trouble with buying the new masks over the period of time between now and january is that they (to my knowledge) haven't even been developed yet, and I suspect the waiting lists for orders will be somewhat long when the time comes.

ps Happy Birthday Pinkelephant!!

silvercross
-2nd June 2008, 10:58
If we plan it with sufficient time in advance, we could use the tried and tested technique of taking our fencers when nothing more than wee babes and fitting metal rings on their soft skulls so as to shape them all to one size...:D

...or get the sabreurs drunk (I am sure they exist in a state other than, it's just never been documented before...:D), point at the foilists and say 'show us that great attack to head you were talking about so much last night' :whistle:

Trusting AUs to provide adequate funding is, well, lets leave it at they have a better shot at predicting the weather... but if Uni clubs are seeing this change a'comin' and they know their AU's Motto is 'No Money', then start planning fund raisers.

Bayston
-2nd June 2008, 21:54
We had this problem come up in our commitee meeting the other week so we emailed BUSA and BFA with no luck. So after several phone calls we got directed to some guy who told us that it won't affect us for years. Apparently they are still having problems getting them working so dont know when they will affect BUSA. This means that we won't need to worry about it for this season and possibly not for a few more!

Tom Bayston
President
Aberystwyth Uni Fencing Club

pinkelephant
-2nd June 2008, 22:24
Who was the "some guy", and at which organisation?

Red
-2nd June 2008, 22:37
We had this problem come up in our commitee meeting the other week so we emailed BUSA and BFA with no luck. So after several phone calls we got directed to some guy who told us that it won't affect us for years. Apparently they are still having problems getting them working so dont know when they will affect BUSA. This means that we won't need to worry about it for this season and possibly not for a few more!

Tom Bayston
President
Aberystwyth Uni Fencing Club

You do need to worry. It will happen. Sooner than you think - it's funny how years fly by.

In the BUSA handbook 2007/08, in the sports specific regs...


FENCING

The Fencing Championships shall be conducted in accordance with the Rules of the British Fencing Association. For both the Individual and Team Championships full British Fencing Association membership (or home nation equivalent) licenses are required by all competitors.

A. Team Championships
FEN 1 Competition Structure
FEN 1.1 Ten teams, selected on merit from the previous season's competition, will compete in the English and Welsh Premier Leagues. All other teams will compete in the Conference LeaguesYour team plays in the Fencing team championships whether you're in a conference or premier league, ergo you play by BFA's rules. If BFA rules say that in Sept 2009 that the electric foil bibs are required then that is what you use.

Daniel Redshaw
Club Captain, Men's Captain
University of Leicester Fencing Club

Foilling Around
-2nd June 2008, 22:49
We had this problem come up in our commitee meeting the other week so we emailed BUSA and BFA with no luck. So after several phone calls we got directed to some guy who told us that it won't affect us for years. Apparently they are still having problems getting them working so dont know when they will affect BUSA. This means that we won't need to worry about it for this season and possibly not for a few more!

Tom Bayston
President
Aberystwyth Uni Fencing Club

"It's OK mate we don't need to have proper masks, some guy who's name I don't know at some organisation told us it wasn't going to happen for years!!!"

Unless they change their minds, it will come into force on 01 Jan 2009 for Senior World Cups and 01 Sept 2009 for Junior World Cups. I suspect therefore that it will also be in force for Cadet Internationals at the same time. I cannot see the BFA waiting too long to implement it.

I suspect that we need to wait until Barry and the other manufacturers solve the technical problems of the connection to the jacket to the satisfaction of SEMI, but I'm sure that will come.

Bayston
-3rd June 2008, 22:36
Who was the "some guy", and at which organisation?

Not sure, we didnt get any email responses so concerned that it would come into play during the BUSA season this September we made some phone calls. We called BUSA and obviously they just said what Red said that it would be when the BFA said. So we rang BFA and got re-directed several times within it, lost track of the names! And thats what we got told, that its not impacting this season for definate and that it will not affect BUSA for a couple of years.

I've been looking through our club paperwork and it shows that when the BFA changed the timings on the boxes it changed for BUSA the same time. Also the uni provided an emergency loan so that we could remain in BUSA. And seeing that we are the highest BUSA points earner in our Uni I'm sure we will get it again. But does anyone have any idea on how much these masks will cost and when they will be available to buy?

Red
-3rd June 2008, 22:42
But does anyone have any idea on how much these masks will cost and when they will be available to buy?

Somewhere between the price of a current foil mask and a sabre mask I'd guess. To upgrade? Probably a fair bit cheaper.

silvercross
-4th June 2008, 10:49
On a separate, yet equally interesting news:

Have I been informed right, and the structure of the Northern Divisions been changed to include a Division II and merge Division I into a single one? :eek:

Just out of random curiosity, were the universities or university clubs approached by BUSA before they decided who went were (as in, was there a consultation process), or was this a unanimous 'let us cut here and relegate this many clubs' decision?

Swords Crossed
-9th June 2008, 22:56
You have been informed right (was it me who told you?). The draft league is such that the top three teams from this season's 1A and 1B remain in a single Division 1. teams finishing below this have been relegated to the newly created 2A and 2B. the scottish conference now also feeds into the Northern premier league, although, if that's already the case, I apologise for the mistake. This information is as reliable as it'll get until the final leagues are published, as it was purloined from BUSA's own website. see http://www.busa.org.uk/mailout.asp?section=0001000100020005&code=10010247&year=2007
Oh, and to my knowledge we weren't consulted, although it wouldn't be the first time our AU has contributed to decisions without informing us.

silvercross
-11th June 2008, 13:58
How come the structure has been divided this way? :confused:

This makes absolutely no sense at all, to be honest.

Not a criticism at any of the discussions had in this forum so far requesting a creation of new divisions (of which I wholeheartedly supported the creation of new divisions), but to just decide out of the blue (unless someone at each university affected was made aware of this prior to saying 'OK, all these universities are to be officially relegated henceforth and forthwith') is a bit cheeky.

At least have the decency to tell the universities involved with a season in advance that 'the bottom three will be relegated to division two'.

In the meantime, some of the other divisions, through no fault of their own, now have 10 teams in division 1. (BIG Congratulations to Aston Uni for winning their long battle to have a fencing team in BUSA, btw. Good to see you in the league) :)

What, oh what will happen if fencing is outshone by tiddlywinks at this summer's Olympics, or if the Austrians capture the hearts and imagination of the English masses as they produce the upset of upsets and win the European Championships, causing a mass exodus of fencers who decide instead to emmulate the great Peter 'The Wink' Wilhelmsson, Olympic Gold Tiddlywinker, and create tiddlywink societies in Bangor and Liverpool, or a new generation of men and women begin wearing T-shirts saying 'Ich Bin ein Macho Man' (in honour of Austrian Goalkeeping Sensation Jurgen Macho), leave the sword and lame for the passion of footie, leaving Division 2 North with only 3 teams? :whistle:

Swords Crossed
-11th June 2008, 15:14
Unfortunately, because of a preponderance of 2nd teams in Division I (liverpool in 1A and Durham and Newcastle in 1B from last season, and now bangor in the A section and leeds in the B section joining the party), there seems to be too many teams. Bangor's new seconds take the number of teams in 1A to 8, and Leeds' takes the number of teams in 1B to 9. In many ways it does make sense., its just unfortunate that we suffer from it.

UWBF
-11th June 2008, 21:16
At Bangor we are quite positive about the changes. It will make the leagues far more competitive.

UWBF
-11th June 2008, 21:23
I think what you guys are missing is that BUSA is a company, it offers a service that we all agree to, part of that agreement is that if they chose to change the league structures they can.

I think this should be looked upon as a positive, fencing is one of only a few sports that (for the most part) only had one tier and a premier league. The addition of an extra tier in the north makes our sport seem much more serious.

Further to this it also means that for those teams (such as Manchester and Leeds) who have dominated their leagues, but struggled to get promoted will now face a higher average level of competition.

pigeonmeister
-13th June 2008, 08:29
"It's OK mate we don't need to have proper masks, some guy who's name I don't know at some organisation told us it wasn't going to happen for years!!!"

Unless they change their minds, it will come into force on 01 Jan 2009 for Senior World Cups and 01 Sept 2009 for Junior World Cups. I suspect therefore that it will also be in force for Cadet Internationals at the same time. I cannot see the BFA waiting too long to implement it.

I suspect that we need to wait until Barry and the other manufacturers solve the technical problems of the connection to the jacket to the satisfaction of SEMI, but I'm sure that will come.

The BUSA leagues, though not the individuals, continued to use the old timings (including in the finals) a full season after the BFA switched.

Therefore, I think it might well take a bit longer than Red states for any changes to filter down.

silvercross
-13th June 2008, 15:54
I think what you guys are missing is that BUSA is a company, it offers a service that we all agree to, part of that agreement is that if they chose to change the league structures they can.

BUSA is a non-profit organisation. The rest of your statement is a bit confusing, but if I get the gist of it right, you're basically stating that, having entered into an agreement all parties are 'in agreement to', BUSA can then go ahead and make changes to this 'agreement', regardless of undergoing a consultation process with the parties which are in 'agreement' over the initial 'agreement' :confused:


I think this should be looked upon as a positive, fencing is one of only a few sports that (for the most part) only had one tier and a premier league. The addition of an extra tier in the north makes our sport seem much more serious.

Further to this it also means that for those teams (such as Manchester and Leeds) who have dominated their leagues, but struggled to get promoted will now face a higher average level of competition.

Again, I do not look at the oportunity to have multiple divisions in fencing negatively, (just read the quote properly please) and do agree with you that the creation of more tiers brings about greater competition. Limiting Division 1North to 6 teams should provide a much more competitive structure.

What I am most certainly perplexed and AGAINST is the fact that these changes came about with only the weekly mailout as a source of information, and with an apparent lack of prior contact on the part of BUSA to the individual universities' Athletic Unions or clubs to inform them of the decision. These are changes that drastically affect all clubs in the former Division 1A north, and at the very least should have brought forward for discussion by BUSA a priori.

It's the equivalent of studying really hard, taking all your exams and passing them only to be told at the end of the academic year by the administration 'we've redone the scoring tables. Everyone who scored below a 70, who would normally pass will now have to take the modue again'. Wouldn't you find that a tad unfair?

Well, unless you got a 71, I'd imagine.

silvercross
-13th June 2008, 16:00
Or a more pertinent example. The 800N plastrons in competition were phased in. Breeches to be used in practices and whenever electrics are used was phased in. The foil fencing bib is being phased in. The new BUSA divisions?

UWBF
-13th June 2008, 23:43
I still dont see your point.

BUSA is a non-profit organisation, however it is still a company that we all enter into an agreement with. Part of that agreement is that the:

"Executive Board reserves the right to amend these knockout qualification and promotion / relegation details in exceptional circumstances."

Which basically means they can do what they like in terms of the league structure, particularly in this case because it can easily be argued that two more teams entering the Northern Leagues was an exceptional circumstance.


In terms of communicating the mailouts will have been sent to your AU. It's up to them what they choice to do with it.