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Boo Boo
-12th November 2003, 16:51
Just a suggestion, BFA really rather than forum, but wouldn't it be a good idea to have a "NIF List" published somewhere?

When NIF lists used to be calculated once a year, the annual end of season rankings were printed in the Sword.

Now NIF lists are calculated twice a year (March and September), and the Sword is published less regularly than it used to be, there is nolonger a public record of who is a NIF (unless you are organised and print one off, at the appropriate point in the year, and keep it...).

Boo

rpryer
-12th November 2003, 17:13
On the sabre rankings, Neil Brown adds someone's NIF placing (i.e. 1st September and 1st March) in brackets after their current one.

I think that the epee rankings site does have historic information.

It could just be the foil ones that don't - perhaps someone should talk to whoever it is that maintains them.

Rdb811
-12th November 2003, 17:32
The Sabre Club's mailings include a NIF list.

stevejackson
-12th November 2003, 20:37
Originally posted by Rdb811
The Sabre Club's mailings include a NIF list.

Yes. but to get this information like the Competition NIF counts you have to be a member of the sabre club.

Keith.A.Smith
-12th November 2003, 20:43
Dear Boo,

I think each weapon should publish them as soon as possible after they are calculated, on the BFA web site.

Incidentally we will be returning to the previous 4 editions of the Sword in the 2004/5 year.

Good to see you at the Welsh.

Keith

Boo Boo
-12th November 2003, 21:13
It would be good to see the NIF lists - in addition to the ranking lists - on the BFA website (if that is possible).

Would be nice to see the Sword four times a year, again, too. Particularly enjoyed the article about James Williams, by Richard Cohen, in this past issue - human intrerest articles are always very interesting...

Nice to see you refereeing at the Welsh :)

Boo

Jambo
-12th November 2003, 22:09
I'll second that, Richard's article was v good. Would like to see more stuff like that. Thought the last edition of the Sword was better than previous ones have been.

Incidentally when do you start counting for the NIF? 50+?

Boo Boo
-12th November 2003, 22:17
Yes, top 50. I think it is useful to know what people are worth (i.e. their NIF value), in addition to their ranking (a top 10 in the current rankings, may not actually be worth a 6 etc.....). Okay, maybe I am sad/odd wanting to know this... ;)

Thought the last issue of the Sword was a bit too "classical", but I did enjoy the James Williams article and other human interest stories/articles. I love hearing fencing stories - Linda Strachan always has interesting/amazing tales to tell :)

Boo

tigger
-13th November 2003, 10:18
Boo - (unless you are organised and print one off, at the appropriate point in the year, and keep it...).

guess which saddo anorak who lives and fences in Cornwall has a printed copy of the men's and women's foil and sabre and the men's epee NIFF list from Sep 1st?

Guilty as charged your honour. I can sell copies at 4.99 a sheet :grin:

3 Card Trick
-13th November 2003, 10:28
ME NIF lists are kept on the ME website so you can refer to hem whenever.

All weapons could do this, it is just another page.

whizzkid1982
-13th November 2003, 10:33
Originally posted by tigger
guess which saddo anorak who lives and fences in Cornwall has a printed copy of the men's and women's foil and sabre and the men's epee NIFF list from Sep 1st?

Guilty as charged your honour. I can sell copies at 4.99 a sheet :grin:



or you could just put them on here for free!!! scan them in and attach them!

Boo Boo
-13th November 2003, 11:15
You are not sad, Tigger, just organised :)

Think 3CT's idea is good. I like the way that men's epee do things - i.e. keep historical lists.

Boo

PM1
-13th November 2003, 11:24
...that's because epeeists CARE......:grin: :grin:

Marcos
-13th November 2003, 12:01
Originally posted by Boo Boo
It would be good to see the NIF lists - in addition to the ranking lists - on the BFA website (if that is possible).

Would be nice to see the Sword four times a year, again, too. Particularly enjoyed the article about James Williams, by Richard Cohen, in this past issue - human intrerest articles are always very interesting...



no chance of convincing James to fence in the Northern Ireland Open ? need to increase the nif of Irish comps

plewis66
-14th November 2003, 08:54
Erm, sorry about this, but, what's a NIF?

tigger
-14th November 2003, 09:25
Good question! It's the arcane method used for calculating the strength of a competition, and hence how many points you score for wherever you finish in that competition. The top 50 fencers on September 1st are the 'NIF' fencers for the next 6 months. Then the top 50 fencers on March 1st are taken as the NIF fencers for the following 6 months. Fencers ranked 1-10 add 6 to the NIF, fencers ranked 11-20 add 3, and fencers ranked 21-50 add 1. In addition there is a 'constant performance factor'. This is a figure awarded for each place in a competition ranging from 20 for 1st place, down to 1.38 for 64th. To find out how many points you've scored in an event you multiply the NIF of the event by the factor attributed to your finishing position. EG A competition with 3 fencers ranked 1-10, 5 fencers ranked 11-20 and 19 fencers ranked 21-50 would have a NIF of 52. If you finished in 17th place you take the factor for 17th (5.6) and multiply it by the NIF (52) ending up with erm.....lots of points :grin: 291.2 to be exact.

The only other thing to be aware of is that to score points you must finish in: A. the top 64 and: B. the top 75% of all entries.

Is that all clear now??? The only thing I'm never quite sure of is what does NIF stand for? Is it National Index of Fencers? wild guess.....

Boo Boo
-14th November 2003, 09:29
A NIF is a phrase used to describe a fencer who is ranked in the top 50 at the start (September 1st) or mid-point (March 1st) of the fencing season. NIF may be a rather outdated phrase, I believe it stands for "Notational International Fencer", or something similar?

Basically, if you are in the top 10 of the senior ranking you are worth 10. If you are in the top 10-20, you are worth 3. If you are in the top 20-50, you are worth 1. Your NIF value stays constant for 6 months (i.e. at the start and mid-point of the season) - it doesn't change monthly with your rolling ranking.

At each senior open competition, all of the NIFs are added together to calculate the difficulty of the competition. So the number of points you will score for a competition is the total NIF multiplied by the multiplier for the place that you finish (providing you finish in the top 75% and Last 64).

http://www.foilcommittee.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/international-rules/SENIOr-ranking-2003-4-vers2.htm explains NIF a bit more. It gets even more complicated if foreign fencers turn up to a competition...

Boo

Boo Boo
-14th November 2003, 09:30
Beaten to it by a sabreur... ;)

Boo

rory
-14th November 2003, 09:31
I believe it was originally coined as "Number of International Fencers", but since then changes to the system have rendered that name incorrect.

You missed one thing, Tigger - there's a NIF of 1 assigned to any competition as a base, so any open competition is worth (a small amount of) points even if no top 50 fencers show up.

E.G. Glasgow Open 2003 - MF winner got 20 points.

Boo Boo
-14th November 2003, 09:33
Originally posted by rory
E.G. Glasgow Open 2003 - MF winner got 20 points.

Don't spend them all at once ;)

plewis66
-14th November 2003, 09:34
:spin:

but thanks.

Boo Boo
-14th November 2003, 09:43
Its really not as complicated as it sounds - its probably just my explaination that makes it sound complicated ;)

Boo

plewis66
-14th November 2003, 09:52
No no, your explanaition was fine. It just took me by surprise!

tigger
-14th November 2003, 09:56
Boo Boo - Beaten to it by a sabreur...

As ever :grin:

tigger
-14th November 2003, 10:06
Having Big-upped by anorak qualities, can't find the women's NIF list! Here's the mens sabre one.

whizzkid1982
-14th November 2003, 10:30
well done good skills!!!

rory
-14th November 2003, 11:27
If anyone's got the MF (Tigger?) I'd appreciate it being posted... I was too stupid to grab a copy in September.

And no, Boo, I won't spend them all at once... as a matter of fact they're no use to me at all cos I've got more than 6 results.

Kind of annoying that you somebody got more points for coming 64th at Leicester than I did for winning a competition with 45 entrants, but there you go :)

Boo Boo
-14th November 2003, 11:33
Originally posted by rory
Kind of annoying that you somebody got more points for coming 64th at Leicester than I did for winning a competition with 45 entrants, but there you go :)

That's when you have to encourage all of your NIFy friends to go... :)

Boo

srb
-14th November 2003, 12:15
Originally posted by rory

Kind of annoying that you somebody got more points for coming 64th at Leicester than I did for winning a competition with 45 entrants, but there you go :)

How about:

Fencer A wins 1 fight in the poule in a biggish open. Because of the number of entrants, he just makes the cut into the L64. Fencer A then loses his first DE.

Fencer B wins 4 fights in the poule in a small open. Fencer B then wins the L64 fight, wins L32 fight, wins L16 fight. Finally Fencer B narrowly loses the L8 fight.

So Fencer A only won 1 fight, and did NOT win any DE fights,
and Fencer B won 7 fights, of which 3 were DE fights.

Fencer A got over double the amount of points Fencer B got.

Can you guess which fencer Fencer B was?

srb (as annoyed as rory)

Dave Hillier
-14th November 2003, 13:04
Fencer B had then just got to the last 8 of the Isle of Wight though hadn't he (Knocking me out 15:1 in the last 16)? Which I hate to say probably wasn't that much of a challenge and <strike>your</strike> his last 8 loss was quite a surprise.

Hell I did a fencer A at the Aldershot as well.

Should the nif scheme be changed then? if so, to what?

srb
-14th November 2003, 13:38
I didn't mention the Isle of Wight.

I didn't mention the Aldershot.

I must have just entered the NIF Zone (cue music)


srb (now knowing Dave wasn't the only Fencer A at Aldershot)

tigger
-14th November 2003, 14:19
If anyone's got the MF (Tigger?) I'd appreciate it being posted

I'll post it when I get back from Amsterdam (Mon night)

Boo Boo
-14th November 2003, 14:22
How about WF, Tigger? :)

Was Emma at the Welsh on Saturday? I can't remember seeing her - I normally bump into her and her Mum at competitions.

Boo

tigger
-14th November 2003, 14:28
She was there! Not the best day - 35th. Will try to locate the WF NIF list.

Boo Boo
-14th November 2003, 14:40
Hhhmm, odd that I didn't see her :( (must have been in my own little world...). Who did she go out to?

Thanks, if you find a copy of the WF list, would be appreciated :)

Boo