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fencingmum
-25th June 2008, 19:24
All the best to the Scottish team for this weekend!
Who's going to win?

Gangsta G
-26th June 2008, 08:52
Without me in the team they haven't got a chance... but come on ENGLAND!

scottishsabreur
-26th June 2008, 09:31
The Scots are clearly going to win :D ....but then I would say that :p

Skartha
-26th June 2008, 09:37
I hope so, whoever they are...didn't know anything about it! Good luck to the Scots, anyway. :)

scottishsabreur
-26th June 2008, 09:42
I hope so, whoever they are...didn't know anything about it! Good luck to the Scots, anyway. :)

Well, not sure who the full team is but I know the mens epee is looking particularly strong for the Scots. You're Edinburgh based aren't you Skartha? Perhaps you could come along to Edinburgh uni (Pleasance) and support your fellow Scots? I know there are one or two spectators coming, I'm sure you would be welcome.

O*N
-26th June 2008, 09:42
Our team was picked by a nihilist on some sort of bizarre subjective notion of 'fairness', so I'm interested to see how that will work out...

My money is on the Scots taking the title with home-advantage (and what with the Scottish normally being to cheap to travel).

Does anyone know where the Clarke-Jackson-McNamee Trophy is now?

Suzie
-26th June 2008, 10:05
I'm planning on popping along for the laugh anyway, so there's one conflicted supporter for ye. :) Have to visit relatives, so it's as good an excuse as any to leave early on the Saturday.

KJK
-26th June 2008, 12:19
Good luck to Baby Blondie aka 2HH and her team. Men's Epee does look particularly strong for the Scots -- hope they bring back the medals!!

D'Artignan
-26th June 2008, 16:19
Not as strong as their MF team last year, though :whistle:

Bayston
-26th June 2008, 16:41
Come on the Welsh! Especially the Sabre squad! ;)

But good luck to everyone should be a great laugh and really looking forward to it!

Old Mongoose
-26th June 2008, 17:29
Our team was picked by a nihilist on some sort of bizarre subjective notion of 'fairness', so I'm interested to see how that will work out...

OI!

It's kinda hard when half of the bloody choices are off around America and Europe..... *grumble grumble*

hamsandwich
-26th June 2008, 17:32
Our team was picked by a nihilist on some sort of bizarre subjective notion of 'fairness', so I'm interested to see how that will work out...

what's new there? ;)

Old Mongoose
-26th June 2008, 17:39
...and I'm not a nihilist.... I just don't care...

Nick_C
-26th June 2008, 19:56
Who won overall last year? Was it scots or english? Got so slammed i cant remember lol. But i do remember the sabre being incredibly tight! Scots bt england by about 2 hits, wales bt england by 1 hit, scots bt wales by 1 hit !! It's always amazing to fence in matches that close. Sadly wont be there this year (in California whoopwhooP!) but will be back next year for more fun n games!

scottishsabreur
-26th June 2008, 21:18
Scots won overall last year. And in regards to team choices, that seems to be how student fencing selection works. There doesn't seem to be a set criteria, which is a bit of a shame for those who would like to be on the team but don't know how to get on it, or what is required.

D'Artignan
-26th June 2008, 21:40
To say the Scots won overall is doing us a bit of an injustice, seeing as we did win 5 out of the 6 weapons, and only lost the other by about 2 hits. We also won the most important part of the competition, which was the drinking. :p

Nick_C
-26th June 2008, 22:41
Scots won overall last year. And in regards to team choices, that seems to be how student fencing selection works. There doesn't seem to be a set criteria, which is a bit of a shame for those who would like to be on the team but don't know how to get on it, or what is required.

The problem with making student fencing criterias is that you can almost never pick the optimum team with one. Let's say your best fencers are A, B and C. A is awesome but never fences in competitions, B and C do busas but no opens. THerefore you have a slightly awkward situation whereby fencers D, E, F, G, H, &c who are not very good, but all got L256s at some open or came almost not-last in the busa individuals, and one won the regional champs or something, but there was no-one good there. Do you select a team based on BUSA individuals results, or on national rankings? or both? And in what proportion? And how does one cater for awesome fencers who never do competitions... and so forth.

In summery, i'd also like there to be criteria for these events, but it is basically impossible to draw them up.

Nick_C
-26th June 2008, 22:42
PS this is hypothetical and no-one should be offended by it.

Bayston
-26th June 2008, 23:42
Thankfully the Welsh have the University of Wales comp that is usually a good indicator. However again it is never perfect as it only includes former "University of Wales" Uni's and does not always guarantee that the good fencers will turn up and like at comps some people can just have a bad day.

But to be honest in my personal opinion (alot of people will disagree) there is no point in trying to create the perfect team as surely it will just alienate those people on the fringes who work really hard and for them this means alot than it would to for example a full blown A-Grade GBR who gets invited to these things regularly. If all the top people could make it everytime then those sort of fencers would never get the chance to fence and perhaps make there brake through and feel a sense of pride for their country (or adopted country).

I await the angry responses from the very competative fencers! :P

Bambi
-27th June 2008, 08:08
The problem with making student fencing criterias is that you can almost never pick the optimum team with one. Let's say your best fencers are A, B and C. A is awesome but never fences in competitions, B and C do busas but no opens. THerefore you have a slightly awkward situation whereby fencers D, E, F, G, H, &c who are not very good, but all got L256s at some open or came almost not-last in the busa individuals, and one won the regional champs or something, but there was no-one good there. Do you select a team based on BUSA individuals results, or on national rankings? or both? And in what proportion? And how does one cater for awesome fencers who never do competitions... and so forth.

In summery, i'd also like there to be criteria for these events, but it is basically impossible to draw them up.


Before the student 5-nations before more serious than it was 3 years ago the Scottish Student team was selected from results in the Scottish Student Individuals, basically the top 4 got the place on the team. Since then though it has become varied, at one point you had to be best friends with the captian/president. Now its done of rankings, or so i'm led to believe.

Mike
Scottish Student Fencing Secretary

fencingmum
-27th June 2008, 08:22
And this year it's so late in the day that many students have gone home or are otherwise away and therefore unable to take part.

Red
-27th June 2008, 09:07
But to be honest in my personal opinion (alot of people will disagree) there is no point in trying to create the perfect team as surely it will just alienate those people on the fringes who work really hard and for them this means alot than it would to for example a full blown A-Grade GBR who gets invited to these things regularly. If all the top people could make it everytime then those sort of fencers would never get the chance to fence and perhaps make there brake through and feel a sense of pride for their country (or adopted country).

I await the angry responses from the very competative fencers! :P

The 'people on the fringes' do not work really hard compared to the World Cup squad member. Typically they don't train enough and when they do train it will probably be ineffective in comparison. You should make your 'brake through' or rather breakthrough BEFORE you get selected for a national team (student or otherwise).
Do you consider yourself to be on the fringe? Do you feel alienated? Do you really work hard enough?
The aim should be to get the best possible team out, not be some all inclusive New Labour-esque dream land.

riposteinprime
-27th June 2008, 09:15
Thankfully the Welsh have the University of Wales comp that is usually a good indicator.

That's absolute nonsense and you know it. I've seen the facebook arguments about how good an indicator it really is. It's a weaker competition than any open in the country


But to be honest in my personal opinion (alot of people will disagree) there is no point in trying to create the perfect team as surely it will just alienate those people on the fringes who work really hard and for them this means alot than it would to for example a full blown A-Grade GBR who gets invited to these things regularly. If all the top people could make it everytime then those sort of fencers would never get the chance to fence and perhaps make there brake through and feel a sense of pride for their country (or adopted country).

I await the angry responses from the very competative fencers! :P

What we'll do, is not select the best fencers on merit, but select the fencers on some other ambiguous criteria.

Where is the incentive to train hard and train effectively if I know that I can get there without being the best. You should have no pride in representing your country if you're not up to that level. All your arguments are self serving for your bubble of a fencing world . You won't get angry responses from competitive fencers, you'll get angry responses for your expectation that your fencers should be selected, when they're probably not nearly good enough.

fencingmum
-27th June 2008, 10:01
Come one, we all know that rankings don't tell the whole story.

You've always got good fencers who can't, for whatever reasons, financial, time constraints, etc., do all the big opens, so aren't highly ranked.

But the fencers know who's good among them, whatever their ranking.
At uni you've got keen fencers who aren't that great, as well as good fencers who don't commit to team events. Very seldom do you have really good people, who are committed to uni teams and highly ranked. Who deserves to be picked? What do you do?

rory
-27th June 2008, 10:11
What you do is take this competition back to the way it was when it was set up by Andy Clarke, Owen and others: it's a fun comp and an excuse for a pissup.

Make the selection criteria as subjective as you like - don't even publish them.

The comp was originally designed as a laugh, and maybe it ought to remain that way - there are perfectly reasonable age group comps available (junior / senior quad, youth games, b match).

scottishsabreur
-27th June 2008, 10:17
Bah! This is too serious and too complicated a topic for discussion at the moment. Lets all just enjoy the competition and the piss up afterwards....then we can bitch and moan about selection :p

Gangsta G
-27th June 2008, 10:51
The Student 5 Nations are probably the hardest competition to set a selection criteria for, for the reasons already stated. However I do think that publishing the teams would be a good idea!

scottishsabreur
-27th June 2008, 10:57
It's not really that hard. Base it on BUSA results, and National rankings...for Scotland and Wales use your own Student Champs as well. And for your "awesome fencers who don't do competitions" have a fourth place selected as the discretion of the selectors. How hard can it be really?

KJK
-27th June 2008, 13:01
Some of the fencers could not attend the BUSA indivduals this year as they clashed with a junior A grade. It is not for want of trying but occasionally it is impossible for some fencers to be at what others might see as a 'qualifying event' as the calendar is too crowded. Other 'serious' fencers would like to give more to their university but again find that they have to train elsewhere as they are not getting the support they need from their university clubs-- basically they need people that can fence and learn from. Other university fencers can not attend the Opens due to pressures of their course so miss out on national ranking points-- I think a selection critieria would have to be very broad if it existed at all and good luck to the student who volunteers to draw up, keep and maintain such a wide ranking scheme. Remember nearly all of this work is done by peple who give of, already limited time.

twohappyhippos
-27th June 2008, 15:45
What you do is take this competition back to the way it was when it was set up by Andy Clarke, Owen and others: it's a fun comp and an excuse for a pissup.

Make the selection criteria as subjective as you like - don't even publish them.

The comp was originally designed as a laugh, and maybe it ought to remain that way - there are perfectly reasonable age group comps available (junior / senior quad, youth games, b match).

Well said!!!! Dublin was amazing and did all of the above. This competition was started as a fun weekend away with some fencing, food, banter and of course drinking. I think there was more competitive spirit at the boat race on the Saturday night then there was during the day at the fencing competition!!!

I think people need to remember that this is a student competition, not a serious U20 or national competition. Although rumour has it that England is taking it seriously this year after being WHOPPED by the Scots last year. They even have stripes....

In the past the Scottish team has been picked probably with who can drink the best, or can shake their 'thing' on the dancefloor in mind - but obviously if they can wave a sword around then happy days!!! This year as we had complaints from a couple of students last year we have tried to make it fairer but as people have pointed out 'fair' is not always managable. Our criteria was based on rankings from the SUS individuals, national ranking, drinking capabilities and who was available on the day! We tried to combine everything to make it fair. So fingers crossed there won't be any complaints this year!!!

Hopefully this weekend will go smoothly. I am some what scared about it :( so much responsibility!!!!

Esther Kuhlmey

Scottish Student President and Lady in charge of this weekend!!!

O*N
-27th June 2008, 16:06
Well said!!!! Dublin was amazing and did all of the above. This competition was started as a fun weekend away with some fencing, food, banter and of course drinking. I think there was more competitive spirit at the boat race on the Saturday night then there was during the day at the fencing competition!!!


Dublin was amazing, yes... and with that I bowed out gracefully from the roll of organising competitions, only to occasionally pop up now and again and criticise others on their running of competitions based on my vast experience. ;)

It's great to see the competition still going but a shame if it gets too serious (is the adjective for being overtly anal anglofied?).

Norn Iron really do need a kick up the ass though, as frankly three team matches for this much travel is perhaps just on the wrong side of the of fencing/drinking balance.

The way to grow the comp in the future is not to have it become more serious but rather to have more nations involved from Europe. The Dutch, Belgiums and Scandanavians would all have similar levels of student fencing and I'm sure it would improve the atmosphere even further to have more nations involved.

Anyway, that's a project for another day. Good luck for the weekend, all involved. I only wish I could be there in person to present the Clarke-Jackson-McNamee trophy or that anyone even knew where it was!

:drink:

Skartha
-27th June 2008, 16:44
Before the student 5-nations before more serious than it was 3 years ago the Scottish Student team was selected from results in the Scottish Student Individuals, basically the top 4 got the place on the team. Since then though it has become varied, at one point you had to be best friends with the captian/president. Now its done of rankings, or so i'm led to believe.

Mike
Scottish Student Fencing Secretary

Ah yes, the competition that I didn't attend because I didn't know about it. Awesome :D

(I know, ignorance not an excuse, etc ;))

fencingmum
-27th June 2008, 18:16
Well said 2HH.

Enjoy the weekend (and if you win - that's a bonus!)

stephenda
-29th June 2008, 14:46
Any results? How did Scotland do?

fencingmum
-29th June 2008, 14:55
Won on points but not on victories - they went to England.

Gangsta G
-29th June 2008, 16:04
So England won then?

fencingmum
-29th June 2008, 18:57
Do you have to rub it in?

Old Mongoose
-29th June 2008, 18:58
What you do is take this competition back to the way it was when it was set up by Andy Clarke, Owen and others: it's a fun comp and an excuse for a pissup.


Wait, wait, wait..... what?

When did it stop being that?! :D

Thanks to all for a great weekend, comp ran smoothly with no hiccups and was finished nice and early too. The Irish had a fun weekend, cheers to the hosts and we're looking forward to the next session too.

Competition. I mean competition.... not session.

Ahem.

Suzie
-29th June 2008, 19:59
Any results?

1st: England - 16 victories (244)
2nd: Scotland - 13 victories (248)
3rd: Ireland - 3 victories (-133)
4th: Wales - 3 victories (-363)


Wales got a bit nuked from the Epe side of things, to be fair.

Whole thing seemed to go well: made me jealous I couldn't join in!

Bayston
-30th June 2008, 17:09
Yeah we didnt even have a womens epee team so thats -135 points there! But still a GREAT weekend. Well done to Esther and the others for a truely well organised event! Had loads of fun everyone was really friendly, especially the irish! But out of curiosity why were there only 1st and 2nd place medals, the welsh and irish didnt get anything! :(

But seriously really good comp well done to the organisers and the English for an amazing performance!

Nick_C
-1st July 2008, 00:40
i'd also like there to be criteria for these events, but it is basically impossible to draw them up.


It's not really that hard. Base it on BUSA results, and National rankings...for Scotland and Wales use your own Student Champs as well. And for your "awesome fencers who don't do competitions" have a fourth place selected as the discretion of the selectors. How hard can it be really?

That is oversimplifying it enormously. (Dont want to get into a massive discussion, but eg Welsh WS last year: no entries into BUSA, no-one on nat rankings, and something like 3 entries into the Champs, of which two were on the foil team and one hadnt done sabre before. This is not an isolated problem, there were problemswith almost all weapons). Please dont insult my intelligence. Think through in practical terms what you're posting.

riposteinprime
-1st July 2008, 08:14
But out of curiosity why were there only 1st and 2nd place medals, the welsh and irish didnt get anything! :(




I didn't know they had a medal for last place ;)

Bayston
-1st July 2008, 21:59
I didn't know they had a medal for last place ;)

cheeky! lol
But the third place medals did seem equally split between us and Ireland. And technically we weren't last as N.Ireland didn't turn up. If anyone asks we came 4th! ;)

MakeTradeFair
-2nd July 2008, 22:11
Thought I would pop out of forum-retirement to say how pleased I am that this competition is still going and growing. I remember way back when organising it's first year I was quite sure that it would end up being a one off event - but am very glad to be proved otherwise.

I think Rory's post hit the nail right on the head re: team selection and that.

I wish I could have popped in to present the infamous Clarke-McNamee-Jackson Trophy ... but sadly I was away furthering my musical career. I only hope that there is plenty of controversial gossip made on the Saturday night that will be told for years to come.

Cheers and goodnight ;)

MTF. xx

D'Artignan
-2nd July 2008, 22:45
How can there have been without me there? As we both know, I'm the life and soul of the party, until everyone else ditches me when I'm on the pull...:p

rory
-3rd July 2008, 07:53
How can there have been without me there? As we both know, I'm the life and soul of the party, until everyone else ditches me when I'm on the pull...


D'Art on the pull...

Is it any wonder you get ditched? You are, after all, a big sleazy cheese monster.
For anyone who doesn't know, these are the kind of lines you're likely to hear from D'Art (ladies are you ready to swoon?)

"If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me?"
"I want to melt in your mouth, not in your hands."

etc

Suzie
-3rd July 2008, 08:50
"If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me?"
"I want to melt in your mouth, not in your hands."

etc

Like watching a train crash....

How could you not stay?!?
:D

D'Artignan
-3rd July 2008, 18:09
D'Art on the pull...

Is it any wonder you get ditched? You are, after all, a big sleazy cheese monster.
For anyone who doesn't know, these are the kind of lines you're likely to hear from D'Art (ladies are you ready to swoon?)

"If I said you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me?"
"I want to melt in your mouth, not in your hands."

etcOi! Less of the cheese monster!!!:mad: And even I'm not sad enough to use those lines, even if I have been known to use a few complete stinkers in my time.

That's the last time you get any of my warm piss-water beer as well.:p

gbm
-8th July 2008, 22:30
But out of curiosity why were there only 1st and 2nd place medals, the welsh and irish didnt get anything! :(

Basically because the medals probably cost a small fortune, given the over 50% of the competitors were receiving them... I think when we ran it, we only gave medals to 1st?

Gangsta G
-8th July 2008, 23:51
Basically because the medals probably cost a small fortune, given the over 50% of the competitors were receiving them... I think when we ran it, we only gave medals to 1st?Yes you did. And totally fair enough in my opinion!

riposteinprime
-9th July 2008, 08:51
cheeky! lol
But the third place medals did seem equally split between us and Ireland. And technically we weren't last as N.Ireland didn't turn up. If anyone asks we came 4th! ;)

you guys won 3 matches and came very clearly last.

Suzie
-9th July 2008, 10:36
you guys won 3 matches and came very clearly last.


Aha, but NI won 0, and 0 is less than 3. :)

riposteinprime
-9th July 2008, 11:15
Aha, but NI won 0, and 0 is less than 3. :)

They didn't even enter. That's like saying I didn't come last at nationals, I came 112th out of 60 million.

Bayston
-10th July 2008, 22:52
They didn't even enter. That's like saying I didn't come last at nationals, I came 112th out of 60 million.

Thats the spirit! lol

gbm
-10th July 2008, 23:01
It's the Student 5 Nations though, and Northern Ireland are part of the 5.

It'll be their turn to host it in 2010, and then maybe Ireland for 2011 if we keep the same order, so if anybody comes to England they should hopefully make the next three (some NI fencers made the first one in Dublin). If we can get all 5 nations involved again that would be cool :)

I won't argue that this year was disappointing for Wales, we came 3rd last year and were very close to winning WF. But at least we (nearly) got full teams together which required some impressive effort from certain Welsh contributors to this thread :not_worth

Nick_C
-11th July 2008, 01:34
I won't argue that this year was disappointing for Wales, we came 3rd last year and were very close to winning WF

I think we nealy won the MS and ME too!

Nick_C
-2nd August 2008, 22:26
It's not my fault that your country has no female sabreurs. For England and Scotland my proposal would work. I'm not insulting your intelligence, just your shortmindedness.

Obviously you have no experience picking international teams.

scottishsabreur
-3rd August 2008, 10:46
Ermm...yeah, given that I've only been fencing for 3 years would you really expect me to be picking any international teams? *duh*

Nick_C
-3rd August 2008, 14:43
But those 3 years do give you sufficient insight to be able to authoritatively criticise my selection methods and decry them to be "shortminded", whatever that made-up word is supposed to mean.

Bayston
-3rd August 2008, 20:32
Calm down guys! Remember sportmanship, settle it on the piste... to first blood? :p