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Dave Hillier
-12th November 2003, 18:52
JohnL has had his say so let's all have our own uninformed suggestions.

Come on we have all sat in the pub and said that how we would do things differently or our idea of how to improve things. So lets hear them then.



Dave

hokers
-12th November 2003, 21:39
OK

New competition format to give people more fights on the day. More applicable at sabre as bouts are over extremely quickly:

Fencers are split into 3 groups according to ranking. Each fencer must fight 3 members of each group to 10 hits. (exactly which 3 members is determined randomly)
15 points for beating anyone in the top group, 10 for the middle group and 5 for the lowest group. That should give you most of the ranking. Everyone with the same numbers of points fights off, to 5 or 10 hits decided between them. That gives you the final placings, ranking points scored from that as normal.
Saves driving a long way, then having 5 fights to 5 hits and one (or zero) DE(s) and going home again. Not only that but you've got more chance if youre fighting off for places, as the people with the same numbers of points as you should be of a similar standard.

OK, who's next.

hokers

Jambo
-12th November 2003, 22:06
But good people who lose their fights agaisnt slightly better people would be ranked very low even though they could have beaten many or all of the intermediates etc.

Robert
-12th November 2003, 23:00
Originally posted by Dave Hillier
JohnL has had his say so let's all have our own uninformed suggestions.
Dave

Here goes:

Objective: Make fencing more popular, increase the opportunities for grass roots fencing, stuff the international performance.

1 Set up scheduled referee's courses at six of the major opens, require update courses for all refs, and badge all refs at all events.

2 Set up regional, weekend, schools with national level coaches to run training days open to all fencers, to raise standards in general.

3 Set up a national inter-club league in all weapons. Non-fencers are more likely to be interested in how their town does than how individuals do.

4 Provide better spectator arrangements at competitions, proper seating, display piste etc.

Result: More fencers, higher profile for fencing, I get to do more training and fight more people, maybe in the long run it produces a better base from which to produce international fencers.

Robert

Prometheus
-12th November 2003, 23:40
Make all fencers do 1/2 hour footwork every day

PS hypocrisy on my part of course - If only I took my own advice:rolleyes:

tigger
-13th November 2003, 10:22
I think this is more PhD subject than a fencing forum one!

I'll be preparing a paper of the next 3 months which I will submit to you all for approval :grin:

Dave Hillier
-13th November 2003, 10:26
Try to encorage fencing at teacher training colleges. Offer them (and run for them) taster weekends/days as a fun break from the kids. Lead this on to getting them club leader qualifications.

You then suddenly have a teacher in most schools who has fenced and may even want to keep going/ run a club or even have fencing as part of PE lessons. Suddenly grass roots fencing in schools exists the same way it does for football and rugby.

James
-13th November 2003, 11:29
one problem dave. teachers just dont seem to want to do after school clubs any more. especially in my school where there is only a couple of mainstream sports you can actually do. i like the idea but you'd need to address the problem of convincing teachers to do after school clubs.

James

3 Card Trick
-13th November 2003, 12:16
But many do run such clubs, unsung and unrewarded, and that is the way ha most of our BIG schools got started.

Don't underestimate the great British volunteer.

Robert
-13th November 2003, 13:07
Originally posted by Dave Hillier
Try to encorage fencing at teacher training colleges. Offer them (and run for them) taster weekends/days as a fun break from the kids. Lead this on to getting them club leader qualifications.

You then suddenly have a teacher in most schools who has fenced and may even want to keep going/ run a club or even have fencing as part of PE lessons. Suddenly grass roots fencing in schools exists the same way it does for football and rugby.

I think that is a worthwhile idea. One minor thing, most teacher training colleges no longer exist so you need to direct this at PGCE university courses, which is a harder prospect.

I would like to add two more points to my earlier scheme:

1. International comps to no longer count towards national rankings, to encourage our best to share that experience with other fencers.

2. A guarantee of at least 1 'A' grade place each year to everyone in the top 50. (Though I would keep, and possible tighten, the draconian selection criteria for the world championships). This last one is expensive so I would divide into three groups based on ranking - funded, subsidised, and pay own way.

Robert

Rdb811
-13th November 2003, 16:41
Have regional development officers to increase the number of clubs - each then has to get fencing into each school in their manor. (as we say sarf of the river)

Rdb811
-13th November 2003, 16:42
Originally posted by 3 Card Trick
But many do run such clubs, unsung and unrewarded, and that is the way ha most of our BIG schools got started.

Don't underestimate the great British volunteer.

There seems to be a lot more money about to get coaches to r un school clubs these days.

doobarz
-13th November 2003, 17:12
Originally posted by Rdb811
Have regional development officers to increase the number of clubs - each then has to get fencing into each school in their manor. (as we say sarf of the river)

You mean your regional development officer isn't doing this already? It is my understanding that each region has one as it is...

Rdb811
-13th November 2003, 17:18
I don't think either of the two Regions I fence in has one.

James
-13th November 2003, 22:06
Perhaps some kind of pack could be put together that could be sent to schools to encourage them to consider fencing. i know its flawed in that they are unlikely to send someone off on a introductory course, but it might if you got local coaches involve. if only to help initially.
I would suggest getting the BFA or the SFA to do this, however if i'd been asked when i first started fencing who should have the most informative, update, useful website i expect i would have said the BFA and SFA. Instead i found its one of the eqipment manufacturers.
So, leon paul, how about it? you put together a simple informative pack, chuck your logo all over it and send it to schools. These schools see it, think its an excellent idea, start a fencing club and spend tons on buying kit from you( if only it were that simple).


James

Jambo
-14th November 2003, 07:06
Thats a good idea, cheap mass marketing. Even if the pickup rate is low it might get some.

plewis66
-14th November 2003, 07:33
Originally posted by Robert
3 Set up a national inter-club league in all weapons. Non-fencers are more likely to be interested in how their town does than how individuals do.


That sounds like a good idea.

As a newcomer, I have a question that is perhaps a little OT, so if you want me to move this to a new thread, let me know...

I'm assuming that there are inter-club leagues at a local/regional level?

My previous exposure to sports includes tennis and squash, where the local leagues form a big part of the experience. Many tennis clubs will have A, B, C, and even D and maybe E teams, participating in leagues against local/regional clubs.

I assume the same happens with fencing?

If not, then that's my suggestion!

Robert
-14th November 2003, 08:32
Originally posted by plewis66
That sounds like a good idea.

As a newcomer, I have a question that is perhaps a little OT, so if you want me to move this to a new thread, let me know...

I'm assuming that there are inter-club leagues at a local/regional level?



You assume wrong. Don't worry, it is perfectly logical to think there would be A and B teams at most clubs participating in local leagues but in most places it simply doesn't exist.

Robert

plewis66
-14th November 2003, 08:46
Robert, thanks for your replies, not just here, but many other of my naive ramblings.

as for no local leagues, that seems a darned shame to me.

I'm in Manchester, and there are at least 8 clubs within easy reach of each other. That's plenty for a league.

Extend the area into Lancashire and Cheshire, and it goes up to about a dozen.

What a pity.

Jenrick
-14th November 2003, 09:12
regional leagues with registered fencers all the regional winners could meet in the final play off. Or given the cheap flights random drawn groups with group winners all going through to a finals weekend. At least that way you may get to meet different fencers / teams occasionally.

rory
-14th November 2003, 09:21
The main problem with such a scheme is that most high-level fencers outside of London fence at more than one club.

I'm based in Glasgow and I fence at two (sometimes three) clubs in the area, but in order to get any opposition of my own standard I'm forced to travel through to Edinburgh to fence.

So I'm a member of three or four clubs.
Who would I choose to fence for?
These days I actually compete nationally under "U/A" as my club loyalties are so spread.

plewis66
-14th November 2003, 09:30
Thats true of all club sports.

You end up at either the club of your choice, if you are good enough to be sought after, or at the club that has a space for you on a team, otherwise.

Doesn't stop you fencing at all the other clubs. And you can, of course, change your allegiance each year if you want.

There are problems, yes, but rules coping with this stuff are well in place in sports like tennis. Particularly tennis in fact, where some local/regional leagues have been running consistently for many, many decades.

tigger
-14th November 2003, 09:42
I ran an inter-club league in Cornwall for 4 years. It was good fun, and a good opportunity for less experienced fencers to get some competitive fights without too much pressure.

Unfortunately it petered out because a lot of the clubs couldn't be bothered to fulfil their away fixtures! And Truro won everything :grin: We've had a few friendlies against Plymouth, but the SW is such a big region that a regional league (which hasd been discussed in the past) is really unrealistic. I also think you'd find that the most serious competition fencers have enough on their plates with training, competing and trying to earn a living!

On the subject of schools, myself and Rob Bruniges started a number of school clubs down here. Some have thrived and other died out, but on the whole it's been succesful and is one of the reasons for the growth in fencing in Cornwall. Most of our succesful youngsters have come to Truro club after starting at one of my school clubs. The money's definitely there to pay coaches, but there are so few full-time pro coaches and most school clubs are either sometime between 3 and 5 pm, or in games time. And most people are trying to earn a living at those times. Luckily I have V flexible hours in my job!

plewis66
-14th November 2003, 09:47
Originally posted by tigger
II also think you'd find that the most serious competition fencers have enough on their plates with training, competing and trying to earn a living!


Which is why Greg Rusedski probably desn't play on his local club team. But I'm sure there is a team at his local club!

I can understand the difficulty in Corwall, though.

Robert
-14th November 2003, 10:05
Originally posted by plewis66

I'm in Manchester, and there are at least 8 clubs within easy reach of each other. That's plenty for a league.

Extend the area into Lancashire and Cheshire, and it goes up to about a dozen.

What a pity.

There was a league called the westside league last year

http://www.westsideleague.co.uk/

And if you are at Salle Kiss that is in your area. It shows the difficulty though, in order to get enough clubs to make the league up they had to invite mine (we are in Derbyshire) and two of the clubs did no shows so the event isn't running this year. If some of the Manchester clubs were interested they should contact the organisers and say, it might be enough to get it restarted.

But when I suggested it I was thinking more of a central BFA organised national league. Dedicate six weekends in the year for the events, give 6 team matches in the day, and you could have leagues of up 25 teams.

Robert

Robert
-14th November 2003, 10:08
Originally posted by rory
The main problem with such a scheme is that most high-level fencers outside of London fence at more than one club.

I'm based in Glasgow and I fence at two (sometimes three) clubs in the area, but in order to get any opposition of my own standard I'm forced to travel through to Edinburgh to fence.

So I'm a member of three or four clubs.
Who would I choose to fence for?
These days I actually compete nationally under "U/A" as my club loyalties are so spread.

It depends on who you want to fence for. I fence at two clubs and put myself down as the one closest my home. The other competition foilist at our club actually fences at three clubs and rarely attends ours but puts it down because that is where he started.

Robert

Jenrick
-14th November 2003, 10:40
I suppose at least you could pick one club to fence for - if they wnat you to!! and fence for them that year. As for the higher grade fencers if they don't or can't compete in the matches then surely at least the lesser mortals like myself may find it a good competitive matches. If you want to remain u/a on the bfa list why not but put down allegiance to one club for club league season.

Robert
-14th November 2003, 12:56
Originally posted by Jenrick
I suppose at least you could pick one club to fence for - if they wnat you to!! and fence for them that year. As for the higher grade fencers if they don't or can't compete in the matches then surely at least the lesser mortals like myself may find it a good competitive matches. If you want to remain u/a on the bfa list why not but put down allegiance to one club for club league season.

Outside of the Salle Boston/Sussex House type clubs (where the D team would all be worth NIF points) most clubs can't find three people who attend competitions. In my club, with competition experience, we have 2 M Foil, 1 M Sabre, 2 M Epee, and 1 W Epee. So teams will always be made up with 'fencers of less experience', which is a great opportunity. It increases the depth of fun competitive fencers.

Robert

JohnL
-14th November 2003, 15:18
Dave

Great suggested thread.

Unfortunately, the ides put forward so far would not revolutionise british fencing, just perpetuate it's current chronic state of existence.

Come on guys.

Be imaginative.

Prometheus
-14th November 2003, 15:20
How about let the French run our fencing?? Vive la revolution!!!!:rambo: