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fencerbill
-10th September 2008, 15:45
A bunch of us d*** Yankees are curious about how it came to be that Veterans fence 10 touch DEs.

Does anyone know when Veterans DEs were established to be 10 touches?

Is it clear what organization or individual determined that the DEs would be to 10 touches?

horus
-10th September 2008, 20:26
Didn't all bouts, including Olympics / Heidenheim etc., used to go to 10 hits? Reading about competitions in the 70's and 80's, they all seemed to refer to 10 hit bouts. When it changed to 15 for senior events others will be able to say, but I presume the body leading the change would have been the FIE. I think the Vets just stuck with the "good old ways".
Why 10 in the first place? Blame those Continental Europeans I guess - they always liked decimalisation!

pinkelephant
-10th September 2008, 20:34
Vets didn't exist back then, so it's not just "sticking with the old ways".

Foilling Around
-10th September 2008, 20:36
A bunch of us d*** Yankees are curious about how it came to be that Veterans fence 10 touch DEs.

Does anyone know when Veterans DEs were established to be 10 touches?

Is it clear what organization or individual determined that the DEs would be to 10 touches?

'cause we're old and past it!

fencerbill
-10th September 2008, 20:58
One data point that I could find was a book on the Olympics published in 1984. It had results through the 1980 Olympics that showed there were pools (or poules since this is fencing forum) throughout to the championship.

PM1
-10th September 2008, 21:03
I'm going out to the Worlds in Limoges next month (NOT fencing :eek: ) so I'll ask around and see if anyone knows the answer.....or just collect a load of possible explanations !!;) But I think FA is probably right: old and knackered and achey after 10........

pinkelephant
-10th September 2008, 21:15
OK - history lesson.

Back in the dark ages when I was still at school, competitions were run with pools throughout, to a final pool of 6. Promotion was the top 3 or 4 from each pool - not by indicator over the whole cohort. So in one pool somebody could be eleiminated on 3 victories, while in another, someone could get promoted on two. (When I FIRST started, women only fenced to 4 hits - poor weak little things that we are).

This often led to cheating at international level - the infamous "combine" where a fencer who was already through might chuck a fight in one round, with the aim of getting the compliment repaid in the next. Rules were therefore tinkered with to stop this, and the following were tried (in no particular order as I can't remember - senility creeping in...)

mini-pools (the most dreadful thing invented by man) - pools of 4 with 2 promoted. Horrible, horrible things.
direct elimination with repechage - the DE format sometimes a single bout and sometimes the best of three bouts to 5 hits
direct elimination without repechage - again either single long bouts, or best of three 5'sWhen single bout DE was first brought in, men fenced first to 10 hits, but had to have a lead of 2 - if not, the the bout continued to a maximum of 12. Women were similar, but it was first to 8 with a lead of 2, to a maximum of 10.

Don't know when it settled down to the present format, as I retired in 1984 to have kids, and didn't start again until they started getting interested in the mid 90s.

When I first started competing again, 15 hits instead of 8 was a big shock - I thought I was going to die in my first comp! Now, though, I really dislike the Vets 10 hit format - if you let it slip a bit theree just isn't enough manoeuvering space to turn it round (in terms of time as much as actual hits). In a normal senior comp I once turned a 6-0 down at the first break into a 9-8 victory at time - i just couldn't have done that under vets rules.

I guess the 10 hits was probably set up by someone even older than me in the very early days of Vets fencing and it has just stuck.

PM1
-10th September 2008, 21:23
:not_worth Cheers PE- job done

fencerbill
-10th September 2008, 21:27
Have to commend PinkElephant's memory, wish mine was as good.

Another data point, US Fencing Association rules, dated 1982, which contains excerpt of the FIE rules, applicable as well to World Championships and Olympics.

The number of hits for pools, for both Men and Women, is 5 effective hits.

The number of hits for Direct Elimination for men is two bouts for five effective hits with a third deciding bout if necessary, or one bout for ten effective hits or one bout of ten effective hits with a difference of two hits, up to twelve effective hits. (For women it was two bouts to four effective hits or one bout of eight hits or one bout of eight effective hits with a difference of two hits, up to ten effective hits.)

This sounds like a transition period while they were making up their minds.

But this supports the position that DEs were for 10 hits and narrows the time period when things changed.

Saxon
-10th September 2008, 22:10
Bah USFA have always made up their own special version of the rules
:tongue:

I firmly believe it's because Vets are entering their "second childhood".
They're just lucky we don't put them back down to size 3 blades as well!

DSSabre
-11th September 2008, 10:57
Don't they always make up their own rules....

DS

jamesthornton
-11th September 2008, 13:27
quick question, do you have to wait for your oap bus pass before you can fence in veterans comps???

J_D
-11th September 2008, 13:29
Best ask your mum!

DSSabre
-11th September 2008, 13:39
Yes james treading on dangerous ground i think.

DS

jamesthornton
-11th September 2008, 16:34
Im not worried, i can easily out run someone on a zimmerframe :rolleyes:


Just kidding mum

Boo Boo
-11th September 2008, 16:44
Do they serve beers at Pizza Hut, at lunch time?

Boo

DSSabre
-11th September 2008, 16:51
Apparently James may have had a sneaky one. x

pinkelephant
-11th September 2008, 22:59
Im not worried, i can easily out run someone on a zimmerframe :rolleyes:


Just kidding mum

Not after all those pizzas. I'm surprised your new slimline self has got room for them.

Anyway... allowance. Off. Cut. I'm sure you can rearrange the words and fill in the gaps (I've even detected the odd capital letter and punctuation mark in some of your latest posts.

Danum
-11th September 2008, 23:09
James might not be able to outrun Pink Elephant after she has broken his legs!!

Forget about ten hit DE fights. After this weekend - Vet Winton - I'll be wishing poules were less than five hits!

PM1
-12th September 2008, 00:09
Good luck this w/e. James - happy bday v soon. ANd Boy's allowance is for HEALTHY food......x

DSSabre
-12th September 2008, 11:23
YOu'll be lucky form what i've heard about this weekend you'll be lucky if he makes it back alive. x

StabInTheDark
-12th September 2008, 13:43
Have to commend PinkElephant's memory, wish mine was as good.....



Well they do say, "An elephant never forgets"

Hope all the Vets. have a memorable time this weekend

Pierre France
-28th September 2008, 14:21
I would first like to say that I am french and my english is very bad (the last time I spoke english is very far). I hope you'll understand but I am not sure of this.
In France, the federation made the vets fence in 10 touches in DE. The reason is that vets are over 40 y.o.:) and they had accidents with serious problems of health (a man died during a competition). Another problem that they met was that because of the few number of V3 (we have in France the V1 that have more than 40 but less than 50, the V2 between 50 and 60 and the V3 after 60 y.o.), they were obliged to mix V1, V2 and V3. We often recognize the V3 because of the dark red they have on their faces.:mad:
So during the circuits, they make pools of 6 or 7 fencers. When a V1 meet a V2 or a V2 meets a V3, the youngest starts with -1. In the case of a V1 versus a V3, the V1 begins with -2.
There are 2 rounds of pools. After those two rounds, they separate V1, V2 and V3 to make DE.
For the national championship, there are 3 differents competitions (V1, 2 and 3) with only one round of pools and then DE.
I am not sure that I am clear enough but hope You'll understand.
If some are intersted in coming in France for national circuits, I can give you the places and dates of thoses events.

J_D
-28th September 2008, 17:16
Pierre,

I get to Paris quite oftem, and fence at Bourg la Reine, I would be interested in finding out about the French Vets circuit.

Pierre France
-28th September 2008, 17:37
Foil :
October 26th : Damigny
November 9th Montpellier
December 14th Melun
January 25th : Bourges
February 8th : Aix-en-Provence
March 15th : Faches-Thumesnil
April 26th : Lyon
Epée :
October 19th : Thionville
November 16th Montélimar
December 7th Saint-Maur
February 15th : Hénin-Beaumont
March 22nd : Niort
April 26th : Lyon
May 17th : Saint-Denis
I do not have those for saber.