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Jambo
-19th November 2003, 09:04
The "three strikes" thread made me think of this. I actually don't know what to do when you card someone.

Do you have to report it to anyone if you hand out one yellow?
What do you actually do if you give someone a red card?
And if you're really p*ssed off (only kidding) and give someone a black card what is the actual procedure?

As someone who does not like taking hassle as a ref I might need to know this one day.

hokers
-19th November 2003, 09:35
I just say yellow card for the first infringement and explain it the the fencer, and red card for a subsequent incident and award a hit to the other side (and annul attacks if appropriate).

I've never had to give a black card (I'm sure not many people have) but I would assume you would need to call in the organiser and the most senior referee in the competition, as this is quite a big deal.

Jambo
-19th November 2003, 09:55
I understand that much, I was more wondering about reporting of yellow/reds and what to do about a black.

rpryer
-19th November 2003, 09:58
Yellow and red cards given should be recorded on the poule sheet/DE scoresheet.

Black cards have to be reported to the BFA by the referee and the DT/organisers, so you'd need to speak to the DT about it.

Jambo
-19th November 2003, 10:01
Cheers

hokers
-19th November 2003, 10:20
I didnt know they had to go on the poule sheet. Whats the usual notation, and where do you put it?

whizzkid1982
-19th November 2003, 10:51
there is section on the poule sheet "warnings and comments" for card offences to go in. notation i don't know though

3 Card Trick
-19th November 2003, 11:11
Notation is colour of card plus brief description of offence.

So Yellow Group 1 etc.

whizzkid1982
-19th November 2003, 11:14
and presumably which fight it occured in if in a poule?

Jambo
-19th November 2003, 11:20
Just been looking at the rules (thought it might be a good idea!). You can get yellow carded for a lot of things that people do all the time, if you applied the rules strictly you'd be handing them out like confetti!

Australian
-19th November 2003, 11:28
its not that bad :)

Jambo
-19th November 2003, 11:36
Simple corp-a-corps (foil & sabre) ...t.20
Leaving the piste to avoid being hit ..t.28
Placing the weapon on the piste to straighten it. t.46, t.61, t.70/d
Bringing weapon into contact with conductive jacket (*) .. t.53
Unjustified appeal ..t.122
Interruption of bout for claimed injury not confirmed by Doctor . t.33
Jostling, disorderly fencing (*); removing mask before the Referee calls "halt", undressing on the piste t.87


I've seen all of the above many times. I know I'm exaggerating but still...

Mantis
-19th November 2003, 14:33
Originally posted by Jambo
Simple corp-a-corps (foil & sabre)

Yellow card if you caused the corp-a-corp. Normally, when you run into each other neither fencer deliberately caused it.


Leaving the piste to avoid being hit

Leaving the piste happens fairly often, but normally by accident, not with the intention of avoiding a hit. If the referee believes it was deliberate then you should be carded.


Placing the weapon on the piste to straighten it.

This rule is intended for metal pistes, which can be damaged.


Bringing weapon into contact with conductive jacket (*)

You should definitely be carded for this because it earths out your jacket! If it is not pulled up then the referee is at fault.


Unjustified appeal

I'll give you this one.


Interruption of bout for claimed injury not confirmed by Doctor

First, get a doctor ... :tongue:


Jostling, disorderly fencing (*);

I don't think this is really that common.


removing mask before the Referee calls "halt",

Again, you are right that this happens and the rule is not implemented. It is intended to avoid intimidating the referee while he is phrasing the action.


undressing on the piste

Like pulling your shirt over your head and running round? Maybe that will come in when fencing becomes more of a spectator sport. :grin:

Jambo
-19th November 2003, 14:35
I just cut and paste from the rules, the last three were there just for the removing mask bit. I wasn't being deadly serious either Mantis!

Marcos
-19th November 2003, 15:18
I think it says "undressing on the piste, even to change a body- wire"

I've never got the hand of that pull the wire through the sleeve trick

Jambo
-19th November 2003, 15:30
Everyone is so trussed up you couldn't smoothly whip your top off and run round celebrating, shame really :grin:

On another thought, next time someone starts being a drama queen about a hard hit I'm going to start handing out yellow cards for being a wuss, unless they can find a doctor to confirm the seriosness of their injury! :grin: Far too many people get all dramatic over little bruises.

doobarz
-19th November 2003, 16:24
Originally posted by Marcos
I think it says "undressing on the piste, even to change a body- wire"

I've never got the hand of that pull the wire through the sleeve trick

I believe this is for the TV peoples benefit - no one likes to see semi naked fencers, so you should leave the piste if a body wire change is required - in the same way you are not to dress on the piste.

reposte
-19th November 2003, 16:45
what does "earths out" mean?

Mantis
-19th November 2003, 16:49
Originally posted by reposte
what does "earths out" mean?

Discharge the electrical current to earth. Your guard is earthed out and that is why hits to the guard do not register. If you touch your guard to your lame then a valid hit will not bring up a light and so it is not allowed. This is also the reason why a metal handle on a foil must be insulated.

reposte
-19th November 2003, 17:12
I have a rather valid question on that one.
You all know if you look at the catalogues of every equipment vendor that there are always two types of grips
offered: insulates and non insulated.
However, I've noticed at comps that a lot of the seasoned fencers fence with old grips aluminum colour.
Does that mean you can fence with a non insulated grip, risking only the yellow card if a touch to the lame jacket occurs
or do old insulated grips are simply aluminum coloured? Is there a rule in FIE comps compelling the grips to
be insulated?

P.S
thanks Mantis

Mantis
-19th November 2003, 17:44
If you turn up with a non-insulated metal handle on a foil, the referee should give you a yellow card and confiscate the weapon, and this should happen when your weapons are tested.

For epee, however, it does not matter.

reposte
-19th November 2003, 17:47
Well, on a more informal note, how come most of the grips you get a glimpse on on TV in the WC are aluminum coloured ones whilst almost all the German and British - possibly not Italian - manufacture coloured insulated grips?

stevejackson
-19th November 2003, 21:36
I can't explain why you mainly see aluminium handles at World Championships - hadn't noticed that myself. However at that level the boxes are supposed to stop you earthing your lame with your foil. Don't know if this applies to all boxes in circulation for open competitions, perhaps the manufacturers/suppliers can tell us.

srb
-20th November 2003, 09:53
Originally posted by reposte
are aluminum coloured ones

The old insulated grips from Leon Paul were plastic dipped in a grey plastic. From a distance they would have appeared the same colour as aluminium. So is it possible you were seeing something similar to that?

srb

Robert
-20th November 2003, 21:39
Originally posted by stevejackson
I can't explain why you mainly see aluminium handles at World Championships - hadn't noticed that myself. However at that level the boxes are supposed to stop you earthing your lame with your foil. Don't know if this applies to all boxes in circulation for open competitions, perhaps the manufacturers/suppliers can tell us.

I asked once and I believe most modern boxes and weapons are set up with some sort of earth circuit that stops this happening. You can easily test, touch your guard to your lame and get your oponent to hit you.

Robert