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Saxon
-24th November 2003, 12:08
Fencer A advances using a cross-step, followed by a lunge.
Fencer B counter-attacks
They both hit.


The referee calls a halt and cards A for the cross-step, and as far as he is concerned, they both hit (shortly) after the halt.

Fencer B claims that the timing of the cross-step, the halt and the hits doesn't matter, and his light counts because A's hit is annulled.

Referee says he called halt for the cross-step, so neither hit counts, as both fencers hit after the offence and shortly after the halt



Who is right?

Does the yellow card annul A's hit but allow B's because you let the action finish
Does the yellow card annul A's hit but allow B's because there was not enough time for the fencers to react to the Halt (and therefore the card)
Are they both out of time because the cross-step was a separate action and the card stops the phrase at that point

I suppose this affects any infringement where there is a Yellow - does the phrasing stop when the offence happens, or when the fencers hear the referee call halt, and if at the start of a single action (e.g. sabre step-lunge) does it prevent the completion of that action.

Robert
-24th November 2003, 13:46
Look under t.75 b(3)

And t.18 for when to stop the action.

Unfortunately the rules leave the question hanging as to which of those options is correct, it seems to be a matter of when the halt is called (before or after the attack is launched).

I suspect there is probably an FIE official interpretation on this and what you need is some FIE Sabre ref.

Robert

P.S I'm only commenting because it is nice to see things aren't quite as rosy in the world of sabre refs as us foilists are led to believe :party:

Mantis
-24th November 2003, 16:01
In general, if the final action starts before the halt then the hit stands with the exception that if the halt is for time then nothing after the halt is valid at all. On the basis of this I would say that there is a case for the hit to be awarded, but I do not know what happens about the annulled hit.

alec frenzy
-24th November 2003, 17:13
If the halt is called for the cross step, BEFORE the 2 fencers start their final actions then YC to the cross-stepper (is that a song title from some time ago?) and no hits awarded.

I think.

If fencer A was to hit with the cross step (or fleche), and Fencer B counter attacks, then - fencer A gets a red card for the fleche, and his attack is annulled, and the counter attack stands.

(2 hits to fencer B)


sounds like mostly complicated "when did the halt occur" kind of thing

The halt would have to have been called for the cross step, I think, if it wasn't then does that indicate that the ref has missed the cross step and it is a simple attack/counter?

whatsUp
-24th November 2003, 17:47
Fencer A gets yellow card for cross step.

His hit (which has not been parried) is the attack and is therefore anulled.

Fencer B's counter attack is not properly executed the attack having not been parried and it cannot be given.

see t75 (3)

Jambo
-24th November 2003, 18:36
The way I understand it is, assuming the halt wasnt called before B's action started, that it's B's hit. A's attack is annulled, it doesnt have to be parried, its effectively a one light situation.

uk_45
-24th November 2003, 20:05
If both attacks were astablished at the same time (making them in a non halt sitution un-callable/un-seperable) and both actions start before halt is called then A is YC and B is given the point.
(if it is a Fleche that would be multiple cross steps meaning a RC so B shouldn't complain)

But that would mean the cross step was on the advance not attack.

Least that is how i see it.

Gav
-25th November 2003, 07:21
The halt is called at the cross step, at which point you hand out the card. The action that follows after is irrelevant. No points are awarded to either side.

Australian
-25th November 2003, 07:28
Originally posted by Gav
The halt is called at the cross step, at which point you hand out the card. The action that follows after is irrelevant. No points are awarded to either side.

exactly, you ignore anything else that comes after that action...

Fencer B's attack would had have to had started before the crossover for it to be considered valid

Winwaloe
-10th December 2003, 16:21
If some complete fool hadn't ruled out the cross step in sabre in the first place then this wouldn't matter adn sabre would be as much fun as it used to be !!!!!!

NLSC Sabreur
-11th December 2003, 10:22
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Winwaloe
If some complete fool hadn't ruled out the cross step in sabre in the first place then this wouldn't matter adn sabre would be as much fun as it used to be !!!!!! [/QUOTE

Ah yes! The good old days of running sabre. The time when you could literally flatten your opponent, receive a yellow card but still score the hit. What fun it was as we punched each other in the masks with our guards as we run at each other. Good distance and timing? Not a lot of that then. Violence and aggression ? the order of the day? of course!!!!!!!

I had fun then as I am 6' 3" and was happy exchange big lumping hits but if the rules hadn't changed then I would by now have switched to epee or foil or simply given up all together.