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Barry Paul
-24th November 2003, 19:02
Can any one tell us what the updated regultions were agreed at the F.i.E. congress Barry Paul

Barry Paul
-25th November 2003, 21:54
However there was a secret ballot with about ten different options

I think but to be confirmed.
Lame bibs not to be introduced at foil.
Test at under 20 competitions
750 gramm foil weight.
totally new Mangerotti foil point which like an epee point has a travel.
longer contact time before hit registers
shorter double time at foil.
Off target to be kept. Barry Paul

Keith.A.Smith
-25th November 2003, 22:07
Dear All,

Plenty of Rules Changes. Peter and Steve will I am sure be producing a summary and also the FIE produce a decisions taken sheet and hopefully quickly.

At foil longer contact time 15ms, shorter blocking time at 300ms, off target lights to continue, fleche to continue, weight increased to 750g from 500, bend in blade maximum 1cm like epee, new Mangiarotti point, no bib on target.

At sabre blocking time reduced to 120ms.

You can no longer score a kit and cover at the same time.

Total number of A grades reduced to 9 per weapon with only 4 in Europe plus 5 grand prix, with only 2 in Europe per weapon.Junior A grades unchanged.

Intentionally hitting the floor at epee is a red card offence.

Plenty more to follow.

Keith

Robert
-25th November 2003, 22:45
Originally posted by Keith.A.Smith
Dear All,

Plenty of Rules Changes. Peter and Steve will I am sure be producing a summary and also the FIE produce a decisions taken sheet and hopefully quickly.

At foil longer contact time 15ms, shorter blocking time at 300ms, off target lights to continue, fleche to continue, weight increased to 750g from 500, bend in blade maximum 1cm like epee, new Mangiarotti point, no bib on target.

Keith

At least they opted for 300ms rather than 200. Are these definite? Or are the FIE going to inflict them on some top international seniors and cadets, get horrible complaints and then withdraw the changes?

Keith, can you clarify British Fencing's position on this. Since the foil rules mean new blades and work doing on boxes, is there going to be a moratorium before these are enforced at british opens? Or are you convinced enough that this is going to be abortive that you haven't made a decision yet?

Robert

haggis
-25th November 2003, 22:46
Originally posted by Keith.A.Smith

You can no longer score a kit and cover at the same time.



Hi Keith

Could you clarify what this one means (typo aside)?

Thanks

Haggis

Muso440
-26th November 2003, 08:47
Originally posted by Barry Paul

totally new Mangerotti foil point which like an epee point has a travel.

Can someone explain what this means, for stupid people like me? And what effect will it actually have?

michel
-26th November 2003, 09:41
Originally posted by Barry Paul
However there was a secret ballot with about ten different options

I think but to be confirmed.
Lame bibs not to be introduced at foil.
Test at under 20 competitions
750 gramm foil weight.
totally new Mangerotti foil point which like an epee point has a travel.
longer contact time before hit registers
shorter double time at foil.
Off target to be kept. Barry Paul

You can see a digest of this (in French) there : http://www.escrime-info.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=446

Prometheus
-26th November 2003, 09:47
Close one for the 'off-target' lamp 38 - 44 !!

Barry Paul
-26th November 2003, 10:18
Until the executive meet it will remain unclear if all the items passed will or can be implemented. In particular the new suggested point, none of the major manufacturers have even seen it so it is not certain they can or will be made.

From the link above.
COMPTE RENDU RAPIDE ET OFFICIEUX DES PRINCIPALES DECISIONS PRISES AUX CONGRES DE LEIPZIG LES 22 ET 23 NOVEMBRE 2003






Nombre de pays présents ou représentés : 86 le samedi et 88 le dimanche.

Nombre de pays affiliés à la FIE : 113

Confirmation du lieu des chts du monde seniors par équipes au fleuret dames et au sabre dames : New-York les 12, 13 et 14 juin 2004.

Championnats du monde juniors 2005 : Linz.
Championnats du monde des vétérans 2005 : Crems.
Championnats du monde des vétérans 2006 : Tampa.

L’Italie a demandé un vote à bulletins secrets concernant les propositions visant à améliorer le sabre et le fleuret, en voici les résultats :

1. Accord sur la réduction du temps de blocage : oui : 56 non : 28
Si oui, temps de blocage 200 millisecondes : 19 votes
300 millisecondes : 32 votes

2. Augmentation du temps de blocage au fleuret à 15 millisecondes :
oui : 48 non : 33

3. Adoption de la pointe Mangiarotti :
oui : 49 non : 39

4. Flèche maximale de la courbe de la lame à 1 cm :
oui : 57 non : 27

5. Augmentation de la pression sur la pointe à 750 grammes :
oui : 40 non : 37

6. Suppression de la flèche au fleuret :
oui : 18 non : 59

7. Suppression de l’inversion des épaules en tant que faute :
oui : 51 non : 30

8. L’utilisation d’un masque de sabre au fleuret :
oui : 18 non : 65

9. Rendre la bavette du masque valable au fleuret :
oui : 29 non : 56

10.Suppression de l’enregistrement des touches non-valables (lampes blanches)
oui : 38 non : 44

11. Au sabre, accord sur la réduction du temps de blocage des lampes :
oui : 51 non : 33

12. Si oui, temps de blocage des lampes à 120 millisecondes au sabre :
oui : 50 non : 32

Toutes ces mesures seront testées durant la saison 2004 / 2005 chez les juniors dans différentes compétitions (voire toutes les compétitions.



D’autre part, voici une partie des différentes modifications avec application au 1er janvier 2004 ou septembre 2004.

-Deux femmes seront présentes au Comité Exécutif de la FIE ainsi que dans les commissions et ce, afin de se mettre en conformité avec les futures règles du CIO.

-Pour les tournois de coupe du monde par équipe, lors de la composition du tableau d’ED seront gardées de façon fixe les équipes classées de 1 à 4, on tirera au sort par groupe de 2 les autres équipes.
Application : après les JO 2004

-Il n’y aura pas de tirage au sort lors de la composition du tableau d’ED pour les championnats du monde par équipes seniors.
Application : après les JO 2004

-Réduction du nombre des compétitions individuelles :
14 épreuves par arme, soit 9 coupes du monde ( 4 en Europe, 2 en Amérique, 2 en Asie, 1 en Afrique ) et 5 Grands Prix couplés avec des épreuves par équipe ( 2 en Europe et 1 dans les trois autres continents ).
Les épreuves de coupe du monde recevront un coefficient de 1, les Grands Prix de 2, et les championnats du monde de 3.
6 résultats seront retenus, en plus des chts du monde, et de ces 6, pas plus de 3 ne pourront être acquis sur le même continent.
La participation aux grands Prix sera restreinte à un maximum de 8 tireurs par arme et par nation et 12 tireurs pour le pays organisateur.
Application : après les JO de 2004

-Report de la faute « touche volontairement portée en dehors de la surface valable » du 1er groupe au 2ème groupe, de sorte que toute infraction soit pénalisée sans avertissement et enlever la possibilité, surtout à l’épée, d’employer une tactique non-loyale.
Application : 1 janvier 2004

-La langue officielle de la FIE reste le Français (18 contre et une MAJORITE ECRASANTE pour !).




-Au niveau des fautes du 1er groupe : il ne sera plus possible de gagner un match en ayant commis une faute (par exemple « protection »), ces fautes de combat seront suivies dans le tableau d’un * (annulation de la touche éventuellement portée).
Application : 1er janvier 2004.

-Les tireurs peuvent utiliser des masques en couleur ou comportant des dessins.
Toutefois, et afin d’éviter toute dérive quant à l’image de l’escrime et de la FIE, ces dessins et couleurs doivent être envoyés au siège de la FIE à Lausanne pour approbation.
Application : 1er janvier 2004

-Les dessins des couleurs nationales sur le bras et/ou la jambe des athlètes sont obligatoires et doivent être identiques pour les tireurs d’une même fédération, aussi bien dans les épreuves individuelles que par équipes (dès le début des épreuves pour les championnats du monde seniors, juniors et cadets, à partir du tableau de 64 pour les compétitions de coupe du monde seniors. Ces dessins sont à envoyer à la FIE pour homologation.
En cas de tenue non-conforme aux dessins envoyés à la FIE, un carton rouge sera infligé au tireur concerné lors de chaque entrée sur la piste au cours de la compétition (sauf cas de force majeure).
Application : 1er janvier 2004


En conclusion, il est à noter que l’image de la France, contrairement à ce que l’on a entendu lors de différents Comités Directeurs de la FFE, est très positive, je me suis rendu compte que la France était toujours autant écoutée et suivie ( cf. les résultats des votes concernant les modifications visant à l’amélioration du fleuret et notamment la lampe blanche et …..la langue officielle !!! ).

Prometheus
-26th November 2003, 10:26
So, Barry will you be sending the Spiderman mask design to Lausanne for approval???

3 Card Trick
-26th November 2003, 11:33
"Originally posted by Keith.A.Smith

You can no longer score a kit and cover at the same time."


Haggis

As I understand it, you annul any hit scored by the fencer penalised for covering. This decision is o rectify an anomaly in the rules.

Barry Paul
-26th November 2003, 11:49
I think it was approved. Barry

Keith.A.Smith
-26th November 2003, 22:30
The FIe Executive i going to decide which Junior FIE A Grade are to use these new rules as test events. Originally at the Congress it was going to be all the Junior A Grades at foil and the Junior world Champs next April, after which more voting to decide if it had been a success or a failure.

As it is for the 2004/5 season that the test will take place and tehn a vote held at the FIe General Assebly in April 2004, the BFA has no position on changing boxes etc as yet.

Even if the rules are approved in 2004, it will take a while to fully implement in the UK.

No one knows if the Mangiarotti point will work, hence I voted against this idea. Thye French proposed 300ms as workable at foil and an improvement on the current position. There was strong support for a 1cm maximum bend in the blade and increasing the foil weight to 750g.It is designed to cut out some of the flick hits, as is the longer contact time on the jacket.

To clarify the no hit and covering at same time. Previoulsy you could cover and score a valid hit at the same moment. You would be warned and indeed even given a red card and could still score your hit. That will now not be possible.

Keith

Epeecurean
-27th November 2003, 11:09
Is there something technically different about the Mangiarotti point other than it has a travel like an epee point? If not, I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Keith, how did you & the BFA vote on the other motions? As for implementation in the UK, wouldn't it benefit the British junior foilists to train & compete under the new rules so as to have a bit more of an edge at the Jr. A events?

Barry, can existing Leon Paul scoring boxes be adjusted to a 15ms contact time and 300ms blocking time or will these rule changes require new boxes?

aao
-27th November 2003, 23:25
As regards the A-grade changes what is this going to mean in real terms? at present there are 10-12 European A-grades (depending how you view Bratislava and Budapest) this will now, including super A-grades be reuced to 6, (not an idea I support personally as I think A-grades are the only competitions outside the worlds/europeans which actually generate worthwile publicity for the sport).

Are the UK A-grades now at risk? how will the FIE pick and choose which ones remain? and what happens to the ones which are dropped, do they become A-grade sattelites or do they just disappear?.

As regards domestic Worlds/Europeans qualification what effect (if any) will this have on A-grade performance targets?, with the number now being substantially reduced, the competitions standard will increase as the top 100 fencers are unlikely to pick and choose which ones they attend and will instead turn up to all the comps (or at least all the european ones based on where most of the top 100 come from). Will the performance targets (e.g 2 L16's be adjusted to reflect this?)

Jenrick
-28th November 2003, 06:27
A translation bt babelfish translator follows for Barry's link. It isn't great but better than nothing!
A number of countries present or represented: 86 saturdays and 88 Sunday. A many countries affiliated to TRUST: 113 Confirmation of the place of the chts of the world seniors by teams with the foil ladies and the sabre ladies: New York 12, June 13, and 14 2004. Championships of the world juniors 2005: Linz. Championships of the world of the veterans 2005: Crems. Championships of the world of the veterans 2006: Tampa. L?Italie required a vote with secret bulletins concerning the proposals aiming at improving the sabre and the foil, here are the results:
1. Agreement on the reduction of the time of blocking: yes: 56 not: 28 If so, time of blocking 200 milliseconds: 19 votes 300 milliseconds: 32 votes
2. Increase in the time of blocking to the foil with 15 milliseconds: yes: 48 not: 33
3. Adoption of the Mangiarotti point: yes: 49 not: 39
4. Maximum arrow of the curve of the blade with 1 cm: yes: 57 not: 27
5. Increase in the pressure on the point with 750 grams: yes: 40 not: 37
6. Removal of the arrow to the foil: yes: 18 not: 59
7. Suppression of l?inversion of the shoulders as a fault: yes: 51 not: 30
8. L?utilisation d?un mask of sabre to the foil: yes: 18 not: 65
9. To return the flap of the valid mask to the foil: yes: 29 not: 56 10.Suppression of l?enregistrement of the invalid keys (white lamps) yes: 38 not: 44
11 With the sabre, agreement on the reduction of the time of blocking of the lamps: yes: 51 not: 33
12 If so, time of blocking of the lamps to 120 milliseconds with the sabre: yes: 50 not: 32 All these measurements will be tested during the season 2004/2005 among juniors in various competitions (even all the competitions. D?autre leaves, here a part of the various modifications with application to January 1, 2004 or September 2004. - Two women will be present at the Executive Committee of TRUSTS like in the commissions and this, in order to put itself in conformity with the future rules of the CIO. - For the tournaments of world cup by team, at the time of the composition of table d?ED will be kept in a fixed way the teams classified of 1 to 4, one will draw lots by group of 2 the other teams. Application: after the OJ 2004 - It n?y will not have drawing of lots at the time of the composition of table d?ED for the championships of the world by seniors teams. Application: after the OJ 2004 - Reduction of the number of the individual competitions: 14 tests per weapon, is 9 world cups (4 in Europe, 2 in America, 2 in Asia, 1 in Africa) and 5 Great Prices coupled with tests by team (2 in Europe and 1 in the three other continents). The tests of world cup will receive a coefficient of 1, the Great Prices of 2, and the championships of the world of 3. 6 results will be retained, in more of the chts world, and from these 6, not more than 3 could not be acquired on the same continent. The participation in the great Prices will be restricted with a maximum of 8 gunners per weapon and nation and 12 gunners for the organizing country. Application: after the OJ of 2004 - Carryforward of the fault "touches voluntarily carried apart from the valid surface" of the 1st group to the 2nd group, so that any infringement is penalized without warning and to remove the possibility, especially with l?épée, d?employer a not-honest tactic. Application: January 1, 2004 - the official language of TRUSTS remainder the French (18 against and a MAJORITE CRUSHING for!). - On the level of the faults of the 1st group: it will not be possible any more to gain a match while having made a fault (for example "protection"), these faults of combat will be followed in table d?un * (cancellation of the key possibly carried). Application: January 1, 2004. - the gunners can use masks color or comprising drawings. However, and so d?éviter any drift as for l?image of l?escrime and of TRUSTS, these drawings and colors must be sent to the seat of TRUSTS in Lausanne for approval. Application: January 1, 2004 -

Barry Paul
-28th November 2003, 07:46
All the micropressor boxes can be programmed to do any thing required by updating the program. All other boxes up till now have been able to be altered by changing descrete component values and or cutting/ adding tracks. For this the boxes would have to be returned. Apart from the no non valid target which is not being changed I doubt if 98% of the fencing population will be able to tell the difference between present settings and the proposed changes.

The one change to 750 gramms is the one I find most pointless. I thought that flick hits hurt, could this be because they are harder hits than normal. So how will changing the spring to 750 gramms make a difference. Just a historical note 30 years ago our springs were 1300 gramms, we then supplied about 850 gramms until about 15 years ago when we reduced the sring to about 560 gramms at the request of some of the top fencers. Barry Paul M.D. Leon Paul.

Epeecurean
-28th November 2003, 10:00
"The participation in the great Prices will be restricted with a maximum of 8 gunners per weapon and nation and 12 gunners for the organizing country."

If I read the babelfish translation correctly, then the Great Price (Grand Prix) events are to be reduced from 6 events to 5 events, count for double points, include the team events, have a more restricted entry, and more refs. The objective, apparently, is to strengthen these as the key showcase events.

By my count of the men's epee WCs/GPs...

Current New
--------- -----
GP 6 5
WC 14 9
-----------------------------
Total 20 14

Most of the cuts to take place in Europe (from 12 to 6) as aao says, Americas will also have to cut a couple, while Asia and Africa will each have to add one. As. Looking at the list one wonders whether the London WC will survive or instead be downgraded into a satellite or candidature A. I never understood what these quasi-WCs meant in practical terms (i.e. do competitors get any FIE/nat'l points for these events?).

It would be nice to have some Great Prices in London.

Rdb811
-28th November 2003, 10:11
There are world / British brownie points for satellite events - 4 world points for the winner.

The thought of iInternational Artillery Duels as a sport is intriuging

Tech
-28th December 2003, 06:20
It is certain that GBR will lose some, if not all, its A Grades. If the FIE choose only the well attended and funded A Grades then we will have none. If the FIE choose sensibly and politically then we should be left with one.

The FIE Executive is making the choice and we will be told in due course - there will be a lot of lobbying from all Nations in the meantime.

The choice for events no longer A Grades are:
1) Drop the event.
2) Run it as an Open.
3) Apply for satellite status.

;)

Tech
-28th December 2003, 06:26
Barry,

As I understand it a Nation can only submit one design for approval which then becomes the GBR Official design. Most countries seem to be submitting a design based on their National Flag.

Are you serious when you say the FIE have approved the spiderman design? Or was it just accepted by the FIE for a particular event??

:sam:

Barry Paul
-29th December 2003, 00:02
The official approval is for the national colours which for the UK is based on the union jack. The mask design is for approval of taste and decency. Barry Paul

nahouw
-29th December 2003, 03:27
Originally posted by Barry Paul
The one change to 750 gramms is the one I find most pointless. I thought that flick hits hurt, could this be because they are harder hits than normal. So how will changing the spring to 750 gramms make a difference. Just a historical note 30 years ago our springs were 1300 gramms, we then supplied about 850 gramms until about 15 years ago when we reduced the sring to about 560 gramms at the request of some of the top fencers. Barry Paul M.D. Leon Paul.

Flick hits in foil hurt only when done by fencers who can't flick properly -- they are actually whipping, rather than flick, hence the pain. Since foils are only required to support 500 grams and the lack of the travel spring, they are able to register their hits by whipping. Épéeists who do flick, hit with a correct execution and a light touch, since under their lack of conventions, would subject themselves to a hit. By changing to 750 grams for foil, those foilists who flick incorrectly will be subject to a hit by their opponent in which it is 1 light against them -- either they will need to learn to flick correctly, or they will have to stop flicking -- problem solved.

The continued historical reduction of spring weight has led to the rise of flicking; by going to a higher weight, this will be a correction. In addition, the adaptation of the Mangiarotti point will also serve to have foilists need to know how to flick correctly, since it will also provide a parameter for required travel; if foilists can't manage flicking under these changes, they then will abandon that action from their repetoire.

Remember, Ralf Bissdorf fenced in both the foil and the épée competitions in Tehran, and he most likely was testing out this equipment in that event -- he finished higher in the épée than the foil.

ceprab
-29th December 2003, 18:30
Epeeists who can't flick do it by repeatedly tenderising their opponents arm of course. (Thinking of a friend who had to abandon the BUSA sabre competitions because of an epeeist doing something evil to the tendons in his arm, and hoping he is OK by now).