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whitty
-15th December 2008, 00:41
Hey!

When visiting teams cancell at the last minute due to illness or whatever, we always try to rearrange if we can. We also try our hardest to rearrange when teams ask us in advance. Having recently been forced a walkover from a different uni (grr...no names, but talking around they do it quite often to others as well....f*kin N........e!).

What is everyones policy of walkovers? Does everyone always try and rearrange, or has anyone every complained to BUCS about it...althoguh can't every imagine anything coming from that!!!

Red
-15th December 2008, 07:38
Hey!

When visiting teams cancell at the last minute due to illness or whatever, we always try to rearrange if we can. We also try our hardest to rearrange when teams ask us in advance. Having recently been forced a walkover from a different uni (grr...no names, but talking around they do it quite often to others as well....f*kin N........e!).

What is everyones policy of walkovers? Does everyone always try and rearrange, or has anyone every complained to BUCS about it...althoguh can't every imagine anything coming from that!!!

Sports hall time is a valuable resource. If a hall has been booked for 3 or 4 hours for a BUCS match then sits empty for that time, then that is time and money wasted. If you call up on the day and say I'm ill, we can't come then expect the other uni to claim a walkover - its in the BUCS regs. You need something a bit more drastic to rearrange due to something happening on the day.
If its in good time (i.e. at least a week in advance), then you can attempt to rearrange but don't expect it to be rearranged unless you have a very good reason (such as exams, or the city has been placed in quarantine).

Bayston
-15th December 2008, 08:49
I had a chat with our Athletic Union President the other day. Most Uni's will always try to re-arrange a match if possible, its basically a mutual agreement, otherwise it will bite you in the arse if you need to re-arange. But I was told that the rules are if notice is recieved AU to AU 24hours before the match I think it has to be re-arranged if it is under 24hours it is at the discression of the AU. If it is on the day if a team is an hour late for the match (physically not on piste) then you can claim a walkover. If they arrive under an hour late and you run out of hall time because they are late (basically you booked it for the minimum 3 or 4 hours) then as long as you put a play under protest form in before the match you take the rest of the points. But everything can be appealed to BUCS anyway!

I think that this is accurate? Please correct me if I am wrong!!

Swords Crossed
-15th December 2008, 15:07
I had a chat with our Athletic Union President the other day. Most Uni's will always try to re-arrange a match if possible, its basically a mutual agreement, otherwise it will bite you in the arse if you need to re-arange. But I was told that the rules are if notice is recieved AU to AU 24hours before the match I think it has to be re-arranged if it is under 24hours it is at the discression of the AU. If it is on the day if a team is an hour late for the match (physically not on piste) then you can claim a walkover. If they arrive under an hour late and you run out of hall time because they are late (basically you booked it for the minimum 3 or 4 hours) then as long as you put a play under protest form in before the match you take the rest of the points. But everything can be appealed to BUCS anyway!

I think that this is accurate? Please correct me if I am wrong!!

That's pretty much how it goes. Although I can understand N.....e's temptation to claim the walkover. Re-arranging matches can be a pain the proverbial (we're desparately trying to find some spare time next year to rearrange one of ours, and it's no end of bother). It should be said that if a team does claim a walkover, then in the event of a tie at the end of the season, it can be discounted (4th tiebreak stage, I'll admit, but I know I'd hate to lose out just because of a stupid thing like that.)

whitty
-15th December 2008, 15:26
I was told that the rules are if notice is recieved AU to AU 24hours before the match I think it has to be re-arranged


For our match that we had to cancel and we were forced to conceed at walkover, we gave them 3 days notice before hand...grrr....apparently other teams have had issues with them who shall still remain unamed!

Still, we are trying to accomodate a re arrangment by keele at the moment for sometime next term, they want a tues or a thurs which is a complete pain...! If anyone is from Keele here...wil prob by the thurs...prob...not 100% yet, need to talk to team mates!

Aramis
-15th December 2008, 17:38
This is going back some years since I last did BUSA (as then was), but isn't there a rule stating that if you conceede a walk-over, you aren't allowed to progress to the next stage (certainly used to be the case).

aber ollie
-15th December 2008, 18:51
I think i've heard on the grapevine that if a team has 2 or more walkovers then they will not be entered into the trophy matches/promo playoffs. I have also noticed an increased amount of walkovers and re-arranged matches since last year. I hope this isn't going to continue growing!

Aramis
-15th December 2008, 20:24
I think i've heard on the grapevine that if a team has 2 or more walkovers then they will not be entered into the trophy matches/promo playoffs.

It was only one when we fell foul of it. BUCS/BUSA/whatever-they-like-to-call-themselves-these-days always had some very silly rules so I should check...

Gangsta G
-15th December 2008, 20:40
In my experience it is generally accepted that walkovers should only be claimed as a last resort. We had a home match against a uni - let's call them Southumbria ;) - earlier this term for which they were three and a half hours late due to a cock-up with their AU arranging their transport (the hire car was only ordered the day before and had to come from Carlisle!) We were perfectly within our rights to claim a walkover, but felt that it wasn't really in the spirit of things and would only lead to bad blood. Purely speculation on my part, but maybe unis with fencers who don't do the open circuit are more likely to claim walkovers than unis with circuit fencers? I would have thought it's a lot easier to claim a walkover over someone you're unlikely to ever see again than someone you're going to come across again in the future - whether you're mates with them or not.

Swords Crossed
-15th December 2008, 21:03
Purely speculation on my part, but maybe unis with fencers who don't do the open circuit are more likely to claim walkovers than unis with circuit fencers? I would have thought it's a lot easier to claim a walkover over someone you're unlikely to ever see again than someone you're going to come across again in the future - whether you're mates with them or not.

Probably true, but probably not for the reasons you suggest. Circuit fencers (by which I assume you mean regular ones, not just those who do one open a year because they live next to it) tend to have more commitment to competition fencing, in that they frequently will prioritise it above other leisure commitments and try and rearrange other commitments around matches, because cometitive fencing is their thang. By contrast, someone who fences as a social activity and doesn't place a high value on competitions is likely to put work commitments first, and not prioritise matches sufficiently to try and rearrange other stuff. Ergo, a club with a high proportion of circuit fencers can put out a team every week, whereas a club of similar size but lower proportion of circuit fencers has difficulty in persuading people to travel to away matches at 10/11/12 on a wednesday.

Just a thought, anyway

pinkelephant
-15th December 2008, 21:05
In my experience it is generally accepted that walkovers should only be claimed as a last resort. We had a home match against a uni - let's call them Southumbria ;) - earlier this term for which they were three and a half hours late due to a cock-up with their AU arranging their transport (the hire car was only ordered the day before and had to come from Carlisle!) We were perfectly within our rights to claim a walkover, but felt that it wasn't really in the spirit of things and would only lead to bad blood. Purely speculation on my part, but maybe unis with fencers who don't do the open circuit are more likely to claim walkovers than unis with circuit fencers? I would have thought it's a lot easier to claim a walkover over someone you're unlikely to ever see again than someone you're going to come across again in the future - whether you're mates with them or not.

And a fine bunch of gentlemen you are at - let's call it Brumingham - too! I know the boys were - and are - very appreciative.

TLove
-15th December 2008, 21:16
IIRC, from the rules.

-Walkovers are only allowed as a last resort, all reasonable action must be taken to rearrange.
-After conceding 2 walkovers, you cannot proceed to the knockouts.

Gangsta G
-15th December 2008, 21:40
And a fine bunch of gentlemen you are at - let's call it Brumingham - too! I know the boys were - and are - very appreciative.We try our best. Maybe if they're so appreciative they could let us win the rearranged match!

madfencer
-16th December 2008, 00:12
When we were fencing one team (lets call them Beffield) they turned up over an hour late...we decided not to claim the walkover as their AU had c*cked up and told them the wrong start time for the match. We fenced but ran out of time (the boys match from our uni was due to start at the same venue) so claimed the remainder of the hits (45-0 in the sabre and a lot of the foil).

A few weeks before we were fencing a different team (lets call them Cradford) and they turned up over 2 hours late due to getting lost in the city centre and the uni telling them they were fencing at a different cmapus to where we were meant to be. The were lost in the city centre for 2 hrs so we thought it'd be harsh to claim a walkover when they'd only been 15mins drive away!

I was advised by my uni that a walkover is basically a last resort...grudges can always be held for walkovers claimed and I don't like the thought of a grudge being held against my team! However, I have noticed a lot of walkovers claimed across the leagues, and a few in our league. This being my first year in BUCS I can't compare this to other years though.

I'm praying we won't have a knock-out match while i'm away for the junior commonwealths as my uni has said they'll do their best to re-arrange if that occurs, but obviously this can't be guaranteed!!

DaveR
-16th December 2008, 09:20
Have just looked at fixtures live and there seem to have been 7 walkovers awarded this season. 3 have been against sunderland and I'm not sure if they are able to field a team at the moment though. Several of our matches have been rearranged this season, only this one has been trouble to try and rearrange. We had a long day last saturday, by train to wales for one match. I think we spent 12 hours travelling that day but thats with the ever reliable british transport.

The problem at our uni is that we start a week later than oxbridge, this causes a lot of troublke for our AU as they have to try and rearrange matches that are scheduled for before our term has started.

Bayston
-16th December 2008, 11:01
We had a long day last saturday, by train to wales for one match. I think we spent 12 hours travelling that day but thats with the ever reliable british transport.

Nope thats just Arriva Trains Wales! Avoid Welsh trains whenever you can, but if it is delayed complain. I was trying to get from Lincolnshire to Aber the other week and my train was 2 hours late into Aber so I complained and got compensated 150 in rail vouchers!! :D

Anyway I do agree that Walkovers should always be a very last resort. It just causes problems otherwise. After all when I have travelled 7 hours to match (seriously thats how long it takes to get to some!) I want to be able to fence!

Well I have heard a rumour from a certain Uni who will remain annoymous who is notorious for checking BFA cards. Now I am not condoning not having one before people start moaning as I agree you do need one as it is a rule. But they had travelled about 9 hours for the match (it was a play-off) arrived then demanded to see BFA cards. Now our fencers did have them but they were at home. Thankfully we went and got them but I have heard them claiming walkovers on other teams because of this. I can understand that it was a play-off so high tension but I think it is a bit below the belt to pull a trick like that. Personally I would have chose to fence and felt like I had deserved/or not deserved the victory.

Bayston
-16th December 2008, 11:08
I'm praying we won't have a knock-out match while i'm away for the junior commonwealths as my uni has said they'll do their best to re-arrange if that occurs, but obviously this can't be guaranteed!!


Just dont use that as your excuse for re-aranging!! Look at it from the other teams view, if they turned to you and said that they want to re-arrange the knock-out match because their best fencer isn't available would you agree to a re-match or would you take the easier match and hopefully move onto the next stage? I know what I would do!! :p

Good luck with the commonwealths!

whitty
-16th December 2008, 19:20
unforutantly, we couldnt avoiud welsh trains...only ones going to the final destination...was a distinc lac of technology as soon as we crossed the border tho...suddenly there was no platform announcments, no screens on the platforms telling times and stuff, and strangest of all, everything was in a strange extended language...all the bords had to be twice as big as normal to get all the letters on! Still was an epic journey, and a drunk way back which softened the blow!

Back onto topic...I'm a regular circuit fencer, and I certanly could try to rearrange if poss. Although, out of my team there is only me who fences competitivly regularly, but generally we seem to be able to get a team together for away matches. Mayb we are an exception!

Anyway...grrr... N.......e!!!!

Btw...anyone from keele, this match we are trying to rearrange, if you come on the Tuesday like you have suggested, you will be really late getting back?...Trying to sort out a room for it at the mo but struggling to find somewhere! Would a weekend not be better for you? Would be easierr for us!

purple
-20th December 2008, 09:08
Unless it's Northumbria.

PM1
-20th December 2008, 09:54
"unless it's Northumbria" what??:confused:

Nick_C
-28th December 2008, 01:08
I get a bit p!$$ed off when people winge about walkovers. If you cant put out a fulll strength team on the day, boo hoo - that's busa i'm afraid. Part of the fun of BUSA is that you dont want the top teams to always turn up and win 135-0. If you're missing one fencer, then you'll just have to manage without them for once one. That is what the real world is like. What annoys me (and it's generally the teams who finish in the top 4 places in the Championship) is when one of their fencers can't make a match and they winge and winge and winge to BUSA HQ until BUSA ring up my uni and force us to change the date of a LEAGUE match (well, sometimes aplay-off match) to a date which us, the home uni, can only put out a very poor side. This has happened to me/my uni on numerous occasions almost exclusively involving three 'top' fencing unis who almost always finishin the top four. Coincidence? Hmm

life wont' alwways go your way - get used to it.
PS two teams have walked over against us this season - the 2nd team had a car-crash on the way to us, so can't really be blamed, but they didnt agree to the only term-time wednesday we had free between then and the end of the (busa) season. The 1st team just gave no reason and didnt turn up, but are demanding to fence us on a saturday in january sometime when i'm sure they can all come and our good fencers will all be off abroad doing competitions...

It's my personal opinion that if they dont turn up (unless there are extreme circumstances, eg a car-crash, motorway accidents, train cancellations etc) then the home team shouldnt be responsible for the rearranging of a 2nd date. If you cant put out a team, why enter BUSA in the first place? You have like 30 members in your club right? Why cant you send some of them? Right bed time methinks lol

IainW
-28th December 2008, 22:22
You have like 30 members in your club right? Why cant you send some of them?l

I agree with all you say, but often they can't send most of the other 30 cos they don't have a BFA license, or don't have kit (and the uni club can't afford enough club kit for them). Or if they send them for an A team fixture they can't then fence on the B team (only an issue for some unis).

Saxon
-29th December 2008, 00:27
What's all this cr*p about rearranging dates, or using Saturdays?

When I were a lad, if you couldn't get the team together and sober (sabreurs excepted) for the Wednesday afternoon, it was just tough. And the AU-funded dinners (at Nottingham at least) were an embarrassment, some kind of pork pie salad thing on a paper plate, where we went to Sheffield and got good honest pie and chips! Plus sabre was steam, and we were allowed to fleche.

And if the time ran out we 'ad to fence in t' car park in t' dark, wi' no shoes, plus we 'ad to bike all t'way to loughborough wi' us kit in us backpacks. Then when we got back, our team captain used to slice us in two wi' t' breadknife...

(still beat Logabroga though! :D)

Nick_C
-29th December 2008, 00:56
IainW - i'm talking bout Premiership clubs, not smaller uni clubs with only a few members or B team clubs, otherwise yes i'd agree with you.

Saxon - perhaps i should mention that i'm not at lufbra anymore ;) - in fact i had to fence against them this season! So full marks for beating them heh heh;)

Bayston
-29th December 2008, 01:11
I agree with all you say, but often they can't send most of the other 30 cos they don't have a BFA license, or don't have kit (and the uni club can't afford enough club kit for them). Or if they send them for an A team fixture they can't then fence on the B team (only an issue for some unis).


There is always someone! I remember in my first year (deffinetly not as long ago as Saxon) but still a good few years ago our Womens 1st Team couldnt make a Premiership match in Newcastle nor could our non-BUSA Womens 2nd Team! So we grabbed 4 novices gave them breeches, foils, epees and sabres gave them a train ticket and wished them luck. I doubt any had BFA licences either. I remember as I was the unlucky one who had to travel for ages carrying all the kit in one bag not able to go to sleep so it didnt get knicked and tryng to coach 4 novices on a packed commuter train how epee and sabre are different from foil! Now that wasnt the best thing to do, I wasnt incharge at the time, but we got to the match!

So there are always alternatives to walkovers and re-arranging!

doobarz
-29th December 2008, 07:43
If your having problems getting a team out on a Wednesday, your AU needs to applying pressure to keep Wednesday afternoons lecture free, and you need to get your club involved in petitions/ protests etc etc.

If your team members cannot manage their workloads so they don't have an essay to write that is a different matter - are th4e club doing anything to prevent this i.e. you must come to training the week of a fixture?

I don't recall us ever rearranging a fixture.

pinkelephant
-29th December 2008, 10:43
Having Wednesday afternoons free of lectures is one thing - but what about the 4 hours each way travel time?

Also, don't mistake quality for quantity - just because a team is in the Premiership doesn't mean it has lots of fencers.

doobarz
-29th December 2008, 15:20
Having Wednesday afternoons free of lectures is one thing - but what about the 4 hours each way travel time?

Also, don't mistake quality for quantity - just because a team is in the Premiership doesn't mean it has lots of fencers.

A downside of the premiership - further to travel. I wonder if the premiership system has been reviewed/ evaluated? I recall the southern premiership getting together on weekends, whilst us in the north did it the old fashioned way on a Wednesday - not a problem for Northumbria, Newcastle & Durham, but some of the other journeys (particularly if you had to travel with another team with a different start time) were much longer.

Gangsta G
-29th December 2008, 18:09
When you've got an away match against Edinburgh you quickly realise that Birmingham is NOT in the north!

whitty
-30th December 2008, 17:08
Well I disagree, I think that if a team rings me up with suffiecent notice, then I will do my best to rearrange if it is possible for us. I would rather have a good fight against a good team tha force a walk over or fence some poor beginners which makes it dishartening for them, and a waste of time, fencing wise for us.

Also, there may be a time when perhaps you have team members ill, or team members can't make it through lectures and you can't put a team together. At my club, we don't have suffiecient numbers to throw some1 in last minute, and rather than cancell, if we can rearrange to a time good for everyone, then i think its better for all!

We have had to re arragne two or out matches this year, one for a saturday and one for a later date which we are still trying to set. But I think its more sporting to try and accomoate everyone because I know as captain that its not always easy!!!

Anway...dinner time!

fnork
-15th January 2009, 09:29
Well I disagree, I think that if a team rings me up with suffiecent notice, then I will do my best to rearrange if it is possible for us.

Good attitude.

We know the teams in our league pretty well, and wouldn't want to get a reputation for pushing for walkovers where unnecessary.

Bayston
-15th January 2009, 18:35
Good attitude.

We know the teams in our league pretty well, and wouldn't want to get a reputation for pushing for walkovers where unnecessary.

I agree. From the point of view of Aber...

We currently have 2 Mens teams in the same league and a womens league against roughly the same uni's. If one of our teams was a bastard to a team then it would only come round and effect the others when they fenced them. From the opinion of a Welsh Uni it is important to keep good relations as every year we have the Universities of Wales Championship between us all and the host uni is always reliant on borrowing pistes to keep the cost down so that we can all fence cheaply and so get more novices into comps!

From my experience most people do the sport at uni for fun and I think this needs to be remembered to keep it fun. But obviously this is only to a certain extent as it is still a competative league and would obviously be different to Premiership teams who take it alot more serious. Its an awquard situation as you want to (well I would want to) fence and so re-arrangement is the best option but you still need to keep it competative! But also this year we won our league (HUZZAR) but if we had won by walkovers I would have felt that I hadn't deserved it and the other teams *cough* Cardiff *cough* would never have let it drop! :tongue:

Swords Crossed
-15th January 2009, 19:17
Whilst people still seem to be reading this thread, is there anyone from UCLan on this forum who could give me a clue as to when they were hoping to rearrange their match against our Men's 1st team for? It would kind of help us with planning for the up and coming term.

Pikkukala
-16th January 2009, 01:16
UCLAN here. Guess it's lucky that I actually remembered to check this place.

I actually thought you guys had declared a walkover for that match until recently. I've been talking to our SU today and at the moment it looks like we can only offer any Saturday (Well, or this Wednesday but I'd rather not as our Men's captain is driving the Women's team to their match and I don't think we'll have enough kit to put out both teams on the same day - we were getting kit repaired over christmas and haven't gotten half of it back yet).

I feel bad as our teams have asked for too many re-arrangements this year (well, three so far). For us every time we've had to ask to re-arrange has been due to the fact we haven't had enough fencers to put out a team (there's only six girls in our club - one of them has an afternoon lecture and another can only make home matches). We've had to do the "coach novices on the way to/at match" twice so far this year for the women's team, and I know the men's team have done it many times (but they have an advantage in having a much larger selection of fencers to send to matches).

Swords Crossed
-16th January 2009, 15:27
We hadn't declared the walkover, but I've been bugging our AU, who tell me they have been chasing your SU. Saturdays are ideal for us as we have regular training then. Unfortunately though it looks like it'll have to wait until early February, what with our exam period and a rearranged netball match. I don't suppose you could pester your SU a bit?