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frank_drebin
-3rd December 2003, 17:09
Hi, the other day in the pub we were talking about sword-fighting in general, and we came to talking about if there was another sword-fighting discipline, which could be made electric for scoring, what would it be?

Our answer was that the fourth discipline would be sword and dagger style. Essentially, you would be wired up as with Epee, but then a smaller dagger-sized weapon would be put in your left hand, which you could parry with, and stab people with at close quarters.

I think this would truly be a very different style to the others, and would be favoured by people with a natural agressive streak.

We also spoke about how the dagger would be made so that it didn't literally stab the opponent. Obviously, if it was metal, it wuld be too small to have "give" in it, and thus be dangerous, so we mentioned "foam" as an example as something which could be used which wouldn't really hurt anyone. You could still attach some kind of metal contact to that surely.

Anyway, what are people's opinions on our "fourth discipline"?
Would you fancy a game of it if someone were to make a set up?

Would you be pissed off if suddenly the BFA introduced it as one of the weapons, or would you be glad of a change?

How would you improve it?

reposte
-3rd December 2003, 17:20
I think that Kendo should be made the fourth, seeing how it is the most prevaisive form of sword fighting not to be recognized as an Olympic school.
It is after all one of the most "natural" forms of sword fighting in the sense that it is not purely sportive like western foil and not redundant in its effectivenes like epee.

Marcos
-3rd December 2003, 17:24
you want aggression -how about sabre horseback!?
:run:

Pointy stick
-3rd December 2003, 17:27
A friend of mine used to fence many years ago at a club on military premises. (I don't know all the details.) They used to do a fourth weapon: spring bayonet. Yes, really! This is not a wind up or satire.

As I understand it, the bayonet was a short foil-like blade attached to a dummy rifle. Unlike real bayonet fighting, the 'fencers' were not allowed to use the heavy blunt end of the rifle as a club!

But back to your sword and dagger idea... why? Fencing seems to be full of people who try this for a few months, then that, then the other. Surely there is enough in any of the three main disciplines to occupy a sporting lifetime, or at least enough if you develop your career through the three weapons.

And within that, any one of the three disciplines could easily have been 'designed' differently. The foil target could have been deemed to include the mask, or the sword arm, or it could have been restricted to a smaller target placed over the heart. Any of the weapons could have been three inches longer or shorter, 250 grammmes heavier or lighter, and so on.

There are plenty of martial arts because the human race is pretty bloodthirsty. I'm sure there's at least one which involves having a weapon in each hand. Amongst these various martial arts, fencing is in a minority because the weapon is both for attack and defence. The conflicting demands on the same weapon hand during a bout are what makes fencing stand out from the crowd.

reposte
-3rd December 2003, 18:50
Actually, the sword arm was a part of the valid target area of foil...

Prometheus
-3rd December 2003, 23:00
Sussex house used to [I think] have an in-house epee and foil tournament where they would use both weapons at the same time (left & right handed). There was a feature in the sword once about it....

michel
-4th December 2003, 12:10
Go and see this webpage (it's in French) : Estocade (http://www.escrime-tm.com/Produits/estocade_tm.htm) .
What do you think of that ?

Prometheus
-4th December 2003, 12:18
That's it!

Dave Hillier
-4th December 2003, 13:06
It does sound rather good. I think that it would need a new setup on the box though rathr that just a modified foil. As random offtarget lights do tend to happen rather often.

pTeppic
-4th December 2003, 15:07
Originally posted by reposte
I think that Kendo should be made the fourth, seeing how it is the most prevaisive form of sword fighting not to be recognized as an Olympic school.
It is after all one of the most "natural" forms of sword fighting in the sense that it is not purely sportive like western foil and not redundant in its effectivenes like epee.

myself and a friend have been investigating an electric kendo system and (time permitting) will be running tests of a prototype system over the summer period.

It uses an adapted form of sabre fencing.

Rhubarb
-4th December 2003, 16:24
the 'fourth discipline' of fencing is refereeing

Gav
-4th December 2003, 16:51
the 'fourth discipline' of fencing is refereeing

I agree

Tarmac
-4th December 2003, 21:23
what about fencing in a ring... or a circle of some kind..
real footwork needed there!!

Epeecurean
-4th December 2003, 22:52
singlestick

Tarmac
-5th December 2003, 18:37
been doing single stick fighting for two weeks now.. got the bruises to prove it... once i get my photos developed you can have a looksie... not at my bruises - singlesticks!

stevejackson
-5th December 2003, 19:53
Isn't there an other version of singlestick, cudgles, fenced with a singlestick in each hand?

TAJ83
-6th December 2003, 10:32
I don't see that Kendo is any less redundant than epee (Whinge whinge) A sharp epee is going to do you damage, just as a sharp katana would. Either way, they're both redundant in that it doesn't matter what sort of sword you have, and how good you are, you try and use it in a real combat situation, you're going to get just as shot!

I fence single-stick, and I find it a lot of fun. A hundred years ago, that's what we would have been using instead of sabres. As it is, at the start of the 20th century, we got better at making whippy metal blades, and so the modern fencing sabre developed. I dislike sabre, presonally, but I really enjoy single-stick. However, the existance of sabre makes the use of the single-stick as a fourth weapon pointless.

Rdb811
-6th December 2003, 16:15
I thought beginners steam foil was the forth weapon.

Pointy stick
-6th December 2003, 20:00
Originally posted by Rdb811
I thought beginners steam foil was the fourth weapon.

Many a true word spoken in jest.

But, surely, steam foil is the FIRST weapon of 4? It's the natural starting weapon.

I'm at that stage where I'm just starting to get into electric foil, and thinking in terms of footwork, distance, timing, and compound attacks with only one feint.

Feeling pretty good about my modest success fencing in the club beginners' group over the last few weeks, I went back to the steam group a couple of weeks back and found it surprisingly difficult! The lighter steam foil allows for more complex compound attacks, and the referees demand to see the blade bend, so a lot of those fast and delicate hits* that would score in electric go unnoticed in steam. The two weapons are as different as spaghetti and tagliatelle: similar ingredients, but totally different.

*The technical term, I believe, is 'flukes'.:o

Mark
-9th December 2003, 14:12
The 'Dawn Duellist Society' in Edinburgh rigged up an electric box to fence Rapier and Dagger. Apparently, It worked really well. Only problem is that the dagger is so short the blade doesn't bend so you're more likely to get hard hits.

hayleyjade
-9th December 2003, 18:41
That sounds really fun, possibly causing a lot of bruising, but it sounds good!

haggis
-14th December 2003, 01:56
Mark

I am disappointed in you.

FIE apparently wants only 2 weapons: one pointy (foil/epee) and one hack and yell (sabre, no offence). See debate about the developments in foil timing/blocking etc. In ten years time you may be asking for the the (re)introduction of a 3rd weapon...

Regards

Haggis

Mark
-14th December 2003, 09:49
In 10 years time we may be asking to re-introduce the second weapon.

Gav
-15th December 2003, 08:14
Originally posted by Mark
The 'Dawn Duellist Society' in Edinburgh rigged up an electric box to fence Rapier and Dagger. Apparently, It worked really well. Only problem is that the dagger is so short the blade doesn't bend so you're more likely to get hard hits.

Next time I see you I will be having some words about the company you keep...