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Red
-5th June 2009, 14:48
Selectors recommendations here - http://www.britishfencing.com/British_Fencing.asp?PageID=1462

Interesting points to note




25.Selection to fence in the individual event at both the World and European Championships will be made according to the order of the national rankings from amongst those fencers who have reached the qualifying standard, subject to the provisions of the following paragraphs.
26.The qualifying standard for World Championships selection will be at least one L8 (or better) result/s, or one L16 and one L32, in Senior World Championships/Senior European Championships/FIE Grand Prix/World Cup (A-grade) competitions in the period of 12 months prior to the selection date - but see paragraphs 29/30/31/32/33.
27.Selection for the European Championships will be on the same basis as for World Championships except that the qualifying standard will be one last 16 or two last 32 results in Senior World Championships/Senior European Championships/FIE Grand Prix/World Cup (A-grade) competitions.
30.If an event has a NIF count of less than 600 then the result will be downgraded by one round (e.g. a L16 result will count as equivalent to a L32)
31. If an event has a NIF count of less than 300, then the result will be downgraded by two rounds (e.g. a L8 result will count as equivalent to a L32)


So, according to that and the MF rankings there are six MF fencers qualified and in order of ranking they are Kruse, Halsted, Beevers, Jefferies, Kenber and Cook.

According to the page linked above, the team will be from Cook, Halsted, Jefferies, Kenber and Kruse with Fitzgerald and A Rosowsky as reserves. The team will be decided at the discretion of the PD and lead coach.

According to The Rules if Beevers is both fit and available he should be going. If he is fit and available and is not selected then he should win an appeal.

We're also sending some unqualified fencers while leaving spaces in the same and other weapons (e.g. MS - 1 qualified, 1 not, WS - 3 qualified (1 selected for team only), 2 not)

In WS, apparently one of the unqualified fencers is displacing a properly qualified fencer (provided she is fit and available). Again, the potential for a successful appeal has been left open.

This is not a dig at the selected fencers - well done to them! :not_worth

Red
-5th June 2009, 17:48
Clearly I'm not well informed enough :o

Ignore the comments re: Beevers (Specifically "According to The Rules if Beevers is both fit and available he should be going. If he is fit and available and is not selected then he should win an appeal."). Apparently he's retired from the squad. Still, must be a nightmare/dream for the selectors having more qualified fencers than places for once.

pigeonmeister
-5th June 2009, 18:12
"Graham Watts (who will also take charge of the men's epee team)"

Is this politics...i.e facesaving to allow JW to fence in the team?

munkey
-5th June 2009, 21:58
Beevers HAS retired.

Only 4 fencers in the individuals so one of the 5 will miss out although conceivably could replace one of the fencers from the individuals for the team event. My feeling is that Cookie will miss out but I'd love to be wrong.

Munkey

Keith.A.Smith
-6th June 2009, 08:33
Dear All,

Glad that the posting about James Beevers having the possibility to win an appeal has been corrected as he has retired.

Believe me the IC/PD do consider carefully the selections.

Keith

DSSabre
-11th June 2009, 11:36
Its also worth pointing out that it is much better to have too many fencers qualified than not enough.

I think this shows that Men's Foil at least is moving in the right direction.

Good luck to all those going.

DS

Wizard
-16th June 2009, 23:42
We're also sending some unqualified fencers while leaving spaces in the same and other weapons (e.g. MS - 1 qualified, 1 not, WS - 3 qualified (1 selected for team only), 2 not)

In WS, apparently one of the unqualified fencers is displacing a properly qualified fencer (provided she is fit and available). Again, the potential for a successful appeal has been left open.

This is not a dig at the selected fencers - well done to them!

Yes well done to all the qualified fencers and its great to see too many fencers qualify for a change!!

I was looking at the British fencing website at the WS fencers and the June Rankings only show 2 fencers have reached the qualifying standard, as highlighted by the yellow. I know you have quoted the rules but rankings list does show that actually 2 have qualified on the rankings page.

Its only upon reading your post (I'm a bit late reading it i know!!) that I found that it is the last 12 months results that the qualification occurs before the selection date.

Is there more harm rushing back from injury, and a long term serious injury at that, to get to a championship with out being matchfit? Her experiance will be beneficial no doubt if she attends.


I think it is a positive step to award a fencer(s) the chance to compete if they have resonable results(L64's/128's depending on weapon, say) so that they can get a team together and support the fencers who have qualifed.


I think there should be 1 or 2 more entered from the other weapons who should go and attend so that a team can be made up. This will be benificial for experiance no matter the result. I know funding plays the biggest factor in deciding on how many go. But how much money do you put on experiance in major competitions?

The long term stratagy must be to gain experiance at the higher level competions for a group of 4-6 fencers who then pass on that knowledge/skill set to the other fencers in the top 10/20 in the national rankings and improve the strength and depth as a whole.

sorry for some of this sounding like a rant, and is not meant to be directed at one person or groups of people as a whole.

cesh_fencing
-4th July 2009, 00:23
From the BF website it would look like 4 of the team are out already due to injuries. Must be long term as there is still a couple of weeks before they fence.

What a pain for them.. Hope they get repaired before the new season comes along.

fa266
-12th July 2009, 23:44
Bump - and good luck to everyone this week!

UglyBug
-13th July 2009, 17:50
So who has not been able to go who was supposed to go?

Slowhand
-14th July 2009, 14:12
Results available here:

http://212.34.165.4:8080/WAFechten/index.jsp

hokers
-14th July 2009, 14:29
Neil 1V/4 in poule, eliminated. Final ranking 46th.
Alex 2V/3 in poule, seeded 40. Beats APITHY (FRA) to make L32. Just lost 15-12 to KONIUS (POL). Final ranking 31st.

Marcos
-14th July 2009, 15:38
one of AOC's victories was 5-4 over former European champion Jorge Pina...

hokers
-14th July 2009, 20:33
WF

Martina 4V/2 in poule, seeded 13, bye to L32, out to VARGA (HUN), finishes 20th
Anna 2V/4 in poule, seeded 33, beats NOGUEIRA (POR) then out to VEZZALI (ITA) in L32, finishes 31st
Claire 0V/5 in poule, seeded 42, eliminated

JackSparrow
-15th July 2009, 08:51
Jamie Kenber beat Peter Joppich in his poule. Not bad.

JackSparrow
-15th July 2009, 08:55
Richard Kruse won all his matches and was only hit four times.

JackSparrow
-15th July 2009, 09:20
Things are going well for the Men's Foil boys. Jamie Kenber won 4/6 seeded 14th, Richard Kruse won 6/6 seeded 1st (bye through first DE), Laurence Halstead won 4/6, seeded 13th and Ed Jefferies won 2/6 didn't make the cut and finishes 56th.

As well as the Brits avoiding each other in the draw, Kruse is in the other side of the draw from Baldini, Joppich and Kliebrink which is handy. He could have a possible semi against Cassara but thats jumping way too far ahead.

JackSparrow
-15th July 2009, 09:30
Halstead beats MAOR of Israel 15-3 (ouch!) to join Kruse in the last 32. Fingers crossed now for Kenber.

hokers
-15th July 2009, 09:51
"On, on! Ye noblest English!*"


*british at least..

JackSparrow
-15th July 2009, 09:58
Kenber out 15-14 to SZEKI of Hungary. Unfortunate as he was winning through most of the match.

JackSparrow
-15th July 2009, 10:41
Kruse through to the last 16 after beating DIACONU of Roumania 15-3.

Lee Spiers
-15th July 2009, 11:07
FFS, 15-3? That's ace!

hokers
-15th July 2009, 11:25
WE
Elisa 2V/5 in poule, seeded 39, faces MACESEANU (ROU) later

MF:
CASSARA out 15-3 to KHOVANSKY (RUS)!!

Threestain
-15th July 2009, 11:28
appears just too damn slow at this results thing

UglyBug
-15th July 2009, 11:32
How come Baldini is fencing? Thought he was banned for 2 years?

D'Artignan
-15th July 2009, 11:38
I seem to recall that it was 6 months backdated to when he was caught.

JackSparrow
-15th July 2009, 11:39
Halstead beats HATOEL of Israel 15-13 to join Kruse in the last 16. He was 13-11 down with 25 seconds remaining.

Mark Oakley
-15th July 2009, 12:04
Kruse on piste now. Currently 7-0 up against Radu Darban (Rou) in L16 at first break.

Mark Oakley
-15th July 2009, 12:10
Kruse wins 15-6.

Gangsta G
-15th July 2009, 12:23
Come on Richard and Laurence! Keep up the good work!

Well done to Alex and Jamie as well, beating Pina, Apithy and Glonek are all really impressive. It seems that every competition Alex does this season, he picks up another scalp...

Mark Oakley
-15th July 2009, 12:46
Halsted 7-6 up against Berjozkin (Hun) at 1st break.

Not much work getting done in my lab today.

Mark Oakley
-15th July 2009, 12:56
Halsted 7-6 up against Berjozkin (Hun) at 1st break.

Not much work getting done in my lab today.

And he wins 15-7.

Two GBRs in the L8. :D

hokers
-15th July 2009, 13:08
Richard 7-6 with Glonek

Lawrence just started vs KHOVANSKY 2-2 at the moment

hokers
-15th July 2009, 13:18
Richard 12-12 (appeal reversal, was 13-11 up)
Lawrence coming back, 6-6

now 14-14 richard, come on! OMFG
Lawrence 8-8

funkygibbon
-15th July 2009, 13:22
14 all!!! ARRGHH

funkygibbon
-15th July 2009, 13:27
He's done it!!!

D'Artignan
-15th July 2009, 13:27
Kruse through 15 - 14.

hokers
-15th July 2009, 13:27
YES 15-14 richard!!

Lawrence 13-12

Rob.Leicester
-15th July 2009, 13:27
RICHARD WINS!!!!
15 - 14

Stunning, he's into the Last Four!!!

Rob.Leicester
-15th July 2009, 13:31
Halstead comes through in overtime! Fantastic result,

Mark Oakley
-15th July 2009, 13:32
Lawrence won 13-12 in extra time. Through to fence Kruse in the L4.

UglyBug
-15th July 2009, 13:32
WOW how good are they?!

Shame they draw each other in the semi :-(

Rob.Leicester
-15th July 2009, 13:33
A shame in some ways yeah, but a guaranteed Brit in the final, is something to dream of.

Edit: Baldini beats Joppich 15-14 and Wessels beats Barrera 15-12.

A fascinting final could be ahead of us.

hokers
-15th July 2009, 13:36
Guaranteed silver medal!

Is there a 3rd place playoff, or is there a bronze guaranteed too?

And Baldini takes Joppich out 15-14 in the other quarter

Mark Oakley
-15th July 2009, 13:40
There's a slot for the 3rd/4th playoff in the tableau.

Rob.Leicester
-15th July 2009, 13:42
There is, but if you look at Sabre yesterday it wasn't used. Could just be that its a leftover from following Beijing?

UglyBug
-15th July 2009, 13:45
here's hoping

TomA
-15th July 2009, 13:46
There's no play-off as far as I know - the rule is only used at the Olympics (according to the rules for competitions). There was no play off yesterday, according to the results.

UglyBug
-15th July 2009, 13:50
oh well, so guaranteed a silver and a bronze, which is fantastic for GBR, but I bet they are wishing they both had an opportunity to go for the top spot.

hokers
-15th July 2009, 13:57
Elisa out 15-9 in L64

Mark Oakley
-15th July 2009, 14:00
For any web2.0 fans out there, Graham Watts is tweeting from the European Championships at:

http://twitter.com/PD4BF

TomA
-15th July 2009, 14:02
If Richard wins this fight he'll be ranked at least 3rd in the world. If he loses he'll be ranked 5th.

funkygibbon
-15th July 2009, 14:07
Kruse is obviously drawing strength from that magic 'Rhidian-esque' hairdo.

UglyBug
-15th July 2009, 14:09
Don't think he has that anymore does he?

Was it last year that Laurence was 2nd at the Snr Europeans? He obviously likes this competition

Duncan Rowlands
-15th July 2009, 14:15
What time are the semi-finals?

My work's firewall isn't letting me access the results web page!

UglyBug
-15th July 2009, 14:16
4pm our time, 6pm Plovdiv

Hoboneer
-15th July 2009, 15:36
Yayy!! Well done lads, we're very proud of you all :D

Mark Oakley
-15th July 2009, 16:10
They're on piste now. Score is 4-4.

Red
-15th July 2009, 16:12
At the end of 1st period, 4/4

Rob.Leicester
-15th July 2009, 16:15
This one looks tight haha.

Edit: Kruse starting to motor now, he leads 10-6

Marcos
-15th July 2009, 16:17
Halstead 6-7 Kruse

this is a mad way to get the result - thankfully the page refreshes quickly:

http://www.fencingworldwide.com:8080/WAFechten/fechten/frameset.jsp

6-9 now

Red
-15th July 2009, 16:18
End of 2nd period, Kruse leads 10/7

Gav
-15th July 2009, 16:21
Do you know guys know that you will be able to watch this on telly?

Check this out:

http://www.fencing.net/forums/thread43861.html#post810548

I can't find a Live feed anywhere.

Gangsta G
-15th July 2009, 16:24
Wow, keep going guys. Fantastic stuff! GBR really starting to get regular results in Men's Foil, fantastic to see.

Red
-15th July 2009, 16:25
Kruse wins 15/12

Junior world silver, Senior Euro bronze and silver/gold in one season.... MF seems to be working quite well at the moment :not_worth

Marcos
-15th July 2009, 16:25
Halstead back from 10-14 to 12-14

Marcos
-15th July 2009, 16:25
Kruse wins 15-12

Congrats to both on getting so far, and well done GBR fencing!

Rob.Leicester
-15th July 2009, 16:25
Richard wins it 15-12. Looked a wonderfully tense match, looked like we could have had a comeback on the cards when Laurence came back from 10-14 to make it 12-14.

Gav
-15th July 2009, 16:53
What's happened in the Baldini V Wessels semi? It seemed to stop for ages.

Baldini has just kicked Wessels butt!

scottishsabreur
-15th July 2009, 16:53
When are the finals?

Rob.Leicester
-15th July 2009, 16:54
Baldini beats Wessels 15-7, there was a long break at 0:46 in the second period, I suspect it was an injury timeout, but not sure who took it.

Marcos
-15th July 2009, 16:57
Berlusconi..!
Donatello..!
Michaelangelo..!
Dante..!
Baggio..!

....your boy's gonna take a helluvabeating!

Mark Oakley
-15th July 2009, 16:59
Baldini beats Wessels 15-7, there was a long break at 0:46 in the second period, I suspect it was an injury timeout, but not sure who took it.

From Graham Watts's Twitter:



Baldini wins 2nd semi final 15/7 after ten minute equipment delay

Mark Oakley
-15th July 2009, 17:02
Berlusconi..!
Donatello..!
Michaelangelo..!
Dante..!
Baggio..!

....your boy's gonna take a helluvabeating!

Are they all ninja turtles?

Mark Oakley
-15th July 2009, 17:06
The final is on at 19:20 Plovdiv time, which is 17:20 here in the UK.

Mark Oakley
-15th July 2009, 17:38
This is all happening a bit fast. Kruse 10-6 down after 90 secs.

Rob.Leicester
-15th July 2009, 17:42
Kruse loses 7-15 :(

Great effort by him and the British team, credit to Baldini though, to come back from his ban and win the Euros takes some serious hardwork.

haining
-15th July 2009, 18:20
A tremendous effort by the Brits, congratulations to Richard and Laurence on making sure we dominated the last four, something that I can never remember seeing before.

Just a shame we couldn't have finished with a win, but they both did us proud.

2nd and 3rd in Senior Europeans
2nd in Junior Worlds

...... the Brits are coming !!!!!!!

Hoboneer
-15th July 2009, 19:40
Awesome, very much looking forward to the team event!! Will be ace :)

Gav
-15th July 2009, 20:30
Apparently Rai are streaming live again! Wish I'd known earlier.

Need to check this out tomorrow. Should be somewhere on here.

http://www.raisport.rai.it/dl/raisport/home_.html

Red
-16th July 2009, 08:48
In the WS today...

Jess is 2/6 -6, I don't think it's enough to make the cut
Chrystall is 3/5 +8

Byrne (IRL) 2/5 -4 (partly thanks to Chrystall)

In ME...

Cadman 3/5 -2
Taylor 1/5 -11
Bennett 1/5 -5 so far with one more bout to fence

Mr long sword
-16th July 2009, 08:53
Chrystall won her poule..! good start..

Red
-16th July 2009, 10:14
ME

Bennett finishes 2/6 -3

Taylor out, finishes 87th.

Cadman 47th, bye to L64 where he meets J Jeannet (FRA)
Bennet seeded 72nd out 15/9 to U Robeiri (FRA) in L128

WS

Lacheta out, finishes 38th.

Chystall seeded 14th, meets I Vecchi (ITA) in L32 (who she beat earlier today in the poule). Score is currently 4/5 down.

At the break - 6/8 down

hokers
-16th July 2009, 10:18
Chrystall now 14-14 TENSION!!!

YES - 15-14 to Chrystall woooooooO!

Red
-16th July 2009, 10:20
She quickly took it to 9/9, now trading hits.
Takes the lead at 12/11
13/11 - can it be?

Assault point - eek!

Chrystall wins! Now through the L16 where she meets Olga Kharlan. Should be tough.

UglyBug
-16th July 2009, 10:22
and she just got a good victory over Vecchi to progress to the L16, which is no mean feat

Red
-16th July 2009, 10:23
and she just got a good victory over Vecchi to progress to the L16, which is no mean feat

Twice in one day too.

Mr long sword
-16th July 2009, 10:29
Tell me you weren't on the edge of you seat....!

Gangsta G
-16th July 2009, 10:50
Kharlan apparently single-handedly won the Olympics for the Ukraine team, so will be a tough fight, but Vecchi took her to 14-14 in the Junior Worlds final in Belfast... go Chrystall!

Mr long sword
-16th July 2009, 11:11
Whats going on ..? the site is now showing Vecchi in the L16...?!?!

funkygibbon
-16th July 2009, 11:13
Reversed call?

hokers
-16th July 2009, 11:16
Oh FFS

"Reason for long delay is that Chrystall Nicoll lost bout at 14-all on a double change of decision on video appeal - lots of protests etc"

funkygibbon
-16th July 2009, 11:21
Argh.

Marcos
-16th July 2009, 12:59
is this the year that Mary Solenne fulfills her promise...?

Red
-16th July 2009, 13:01
Oh FFS

"Reason for long delay is that Chrystall Nicoll lost bout at 14-all on a double change of decision on video appeal - lots of protests etc"

What on earth does that mean? I thought that a given hit could only go to video once.

In other news, Cadman finished 52nd and Bennett 76th - 104 in, so TC gets GB ranking points.
Chrystall's final position was 22nd - same round as Perrus, Velikaia and other scary people.

randomsabreur
-16th July 2009, 13:01
Solenne Mary...

funkygibbon
-16th July 2009, 14:03
Is JW only competing in the ME team event, or have I missed something? (sorry, working long hours on Swine Flu at the moment..... )

Sabreur In Training
-16th July 2009, 14:56
What on earth does that mean? I thought that a given hit could only go to video once.

Thats true, however what can happen is a higher oficial can overule the the referee on the same video. It happened to Alex O'Connel at the Junior Worlds I believe.

Rob.Leicester
-16th July 2009, 15:26
Is JW only competing in the ME team event, or have I missed something? (sorry, working long hours on Swine Flu at the moment..... )

JW's just had some surgery and is on crutches at the moment.

UglyBug
-16th July 2009, 15:48
Thats true, however what can happen is a higher oficial can overule the the referee on the same video. It happened to Alex O'Connel at the Junior Worlds I believe.

What happened is that there were two lights at 14-all

Referee looks at the video replay and, based on that, awards it to Chrystall

Vecchi appeals, at which point the member of arbitrage appointed to that fight watches the video replay and makes the call for Vecchi

Rdb811
-16th July 2009, 16:12
What happened is that there were two lights at 14-all

Referee looks at the video replay and, based on that, awards it to Chrystall

Vecchi appeals, at which point the member of arbitrage appointed to that fight watches the video replay and makes the call for Vecchi

Surely at this point correct call is "Together" if three very senior refs can't agree. Not good.

UglyBug
-16th July 2009, 16:27
No, it's not 3 refs - there is one person refereeing the fight. There is a more senior referee from the arbitrage on the video. So it is not 3 referees disagreeing, it is one more important referee overruling a less important referee.

Red
-16th July 2009, 17:04
I see, and that sounds perfectly normal. The quote that I assume is from GW was a little misleading (only 1 appeal as opposed to the suggested 2 that caused confusion).

And Roger, 'together' suggests precisely what it says (the two attacks started at the same time). 'Abstain' is the word you're looking for and means something completely different.

Rdb811
-16th July 2009, 18:25
Yes - my point was that three refs came up to different conclusions therefore "abstain" would be the best call.

ChubbyHubby
-16th July 2009, 19:03
MF Podium pic

grabbed from: http://www.atleticomtv.it/federscherma/index.asp?id=551

TomA
-16th July 2009, 20:15
Yes - my point was that three refs came up to different conclusions therefore "abstain" would be the best call.Why?

Foilling Around
-16th July 2009, 23:19
No, it's not 3 refs - there is one person refereeing the fight. There is a more senior referee from the arbitrage on the video. So it is not 3 referees disagreeing, it is one more important referee overruling a less important referee.

And herein lies the problem. The rules say that the final decision lies with the piste referee. The video referee is there to advise.

What happens in practice is that at the major events a senior referee oversees and so the piste referee has two choices. 1) Give in to the video referee or 2) Stick to his gun and risk never getting this level of refereeing again.

Having seen it in action in Belfast, it stinks and brings the sport into disrepute.

Rdb811
-17th July 2009, 01:15
Why?

Because if three senior refs can't agree then the matter is inconclusive and it is unfair to award a point either way. Sometimes we have to be groen ups and admit our sport can be inconclusive.

Red
-17th July 2009, 09:00
Because if three senior refs can't agree then the matter is inconclusive and it is unfair to award a point either way. Sometimes we have to be groen ups and admit our sport can be inconclusive.

If they cannot agree, then the ref on the piste has the last say. As has been said before the ref on the piste really wants to continue reffing at GPs and major championships so it's in his best interests to agree with the man on the video.

Whatever the reality is, the principle is to reduce the number of double hits that result in abstention, are given at random or given simultaneous incorrectly. Ideally there should only be one interpretation of a given phrase, however the ref on the piste isn't always good enough to see it ;)

It doesn't sound like anything unfair or improper happened. Vecchi had an appeal left and used it to her advantage - apparently the ref on piste missed something on his tiny screen - this happens, he's only human.

hokers
-17th July 2009, 09:22
WF team this morning:
Lost 38-30 to Romania
Currently 35-28 up against Turkey in the 9th-10th playoff

german_fencer
-17th July 2009, 09:34
There shouldnt be the possibility to appeal to an appeal...

Red
-17th July 2009, 09:39
There shouldnt be the possibility to appeal to an appeal...

Nobody did. The quote earlier in the thread was a little misleading and was explained away by UglyBug (ref looked at video by the piste himself, then a single successful appeal was made to the video proper).

Ronald Velden
-17th July 2009, 10:18
I have always thought that the video referral in fencing is unsatisfactory,
because a referee of a match should always be in 'control' of decision making.

In rugby and cricket 'video referral' is made by a referee or umpire when he/she is uncertain and more importantly at his/her discretion.

Tennis as seen at Wimbledon now uses video evidence to determine whether
a ball is out of play, but a player can onlly appeal unsuccessfully twice in any
set. We have already seen there a degree of gamesmanship.

Fencing on the other hand allows 'combatants or their support team' to
challenge a referee's decision and for subsequent intervention which is
in effect undermining an official's judgment.

The only occasion when there should be intervention from a higher authority
should be when a referee is consistently wrong or making dubious decisions
as was the case in Athens.

Red
-17th July 2009, 10:28
...
Fencing on the other hand allows 'combatants or their support team' to
challenge a referee's decision...

I thought that only the fencer can.

Ronald Velden
-17th July 2009, 10:32
Ref: Red

You are probably correct in that assumption, but you know as well as
I do that some countries especially Italy are not exactly passive when
it comes to influencing referees.

Gav
-17th July 2009, 11:16
I have always thought that the video referral in fencing is unsatisfactory,
because a referee of a match should always be in 'control' of decision making.

He is. It's the fencer who makes the appeal...


In rugby and cricket 'video referral' is made by a referee or umpire when he/she is uncertain and more importantly at his/her discretion.

Yes, though I would contend that, from what I've seen in Rugby, this means that the Ref will go to the 4th official more often than he needs to.


Tennis as seen at Wimbledon now uses video evidence to determine whether
a ball is out of play, but a player can onlly appeal unsuccessfully twice in any
set. We have already seen there a degree of gamesmanship.

You mean the same as in fencing? And it's 3 times* plus an extra appeal in the cases of a tie break.

What's wrong with the gamesmanship? It's all part of the game. It's no different from "tying your shoelaces" or "adjusting your glove" or [in the case of Tennis] going for an additional ball toss.


Fencing on the other hand allows 'combatants or their support team' to
challenge a referee's decision and for subsequent intervention which is
in effect undermining an official's judgment.

As I understand it, it's only the fencer who can appeal - does someone else want to clarify that?


The only occasion when there should be intervention from a higher authority
should be when a referee is consistently wrong or making dubious decisions
as was the case in Athens.

There is an established procedure for this and it's got nothing to do with video replay.

* Certainly the case in Wimbledon I can't recall off the top of my head if it's the same elsewhere but I assume so.

monobrow
-17th July 2009, 11:24
MS

poland on 40 germany on 33

final leg koniusz (pol) vs limbach (ger)

limbach wins 12 -1. ouch.

Tubby
-17th July 2009, 11:31
As I understand it, it's only the fencer who can appeal - does someone else want to clarify that?I'm no official, but its the rule as explained to me by FIE ref. The coach and support people will shout or signal to the fencer to appeal of course.

Gav
-17th July 2009, 11:39
I'm no official, but its the rule as explained to me by FIE ref. The coach and support people will shout or signal to the fencer to appeal of course.


Well, obviously. Same as it's only the player who can appeal in Tennis and yet they obviously check with their coaches at least some of the time.

german_fencer
-17th July 2009, 12:05
Nobody did. The quote earlier in the thread was a little misleading and was explained away by UglyBug (ref looked at video by the piste himself, then a single successful appeal was made to the video proper).

Ah ok I got that wrong.

Gangsta G
-17th July 2009, 12:59
Video refereeing is not perfect but is surely better than nothing. I have seen it used in the flesh (in Belfast) and quite liked what I saw. The main issues for me are the influence of non-fencers, the amount of time a fencer is given to appeal (in the MST final, Hungary got a decision reversed after another hit had been scored, the replay was requested by one of the coaches and one of the fencers not on piste), and that real time and slow-mo can sometimes make a hit look completely different. However for the benefits, look at this example: last 32 (I think) of the CWS. Diamond Wheeler (USA) v another USA girl. Wheeler is 13-12 down and has a shocking decision given against her to go 14-12 down.. She appeals, the decision is reversed. 13-13. Wheeler not only goes on to win the fight 15-14 but to win the gold medal. Surely therefore video refereeing is, on the whole, a good thing.

Back on topic... I'll echo monobrow's comments on Germany-Poland!

J_D
-17th July 2009, 13:35
Has anyone seen a report of the MF results in the press, a GB silver and bronze in this event is obviously something to shout about. I hope BF have sent out press releases at the very least.....

Mr long sword
-17th July 2009, 15:23
I sent information to a couple of contacts at BBC London Radio..

funkygibbon
-17th July 2009, 16:08
Well, obviously. Same as it's only the player who can appeal in Tennis and yet they obviously check with their coaches at least some of the time.

If you watch Jason Rogers in his Olympic L32 fight, there is a moment after a hit where he shows no indication of intending to challenge a call and is walking back to the en garde line. You can then hear his coach shouting loudly "Jason, he crossed!". Jason then challenges the call, successfully.

In that instance, Rogers had no clue his opponent had crossed and only initiated the challenge because his coach did.

UglyBug
-17th July 2009, 16:08
Men's Foil team tomoz - does anyone know how they seed the teams at the Senior Euros? Is it based on the results from the individuals or the team world ranking?

Gav
-17th July 2009, 16:21
If you watch Jason Rogers in his Olympic L32 fight, there is a moment after a hit where he shows no indication of intending to challenge a call and is walking back to the en garde line. You can then hear his coach shouting loudly "Jason, he crossed!". Jason then challenges the call, successfully.

In that instance, Rogers had no clue his opponent had crossed and only initiated the challenge because his coach did.

The point being that it was still Jason who made the call for video.... irrespective of whether his coach was shouting at him.

Jason could have chosen to ignore his coach if he'd wanted to.

smiley
-18th July 2009, 09:56
Any news on the mens foil team?

fencingmaster
-18th July 2009, 10:12
link http://212.34.165.4:8080/WAFechten/index.jsp
GB(6) bt Israel (11) 36-33
GB(6) bt Poland (3) 45-42
GB(6) v Russia (2) L4

smiley
-18th July 2009, 10:36
Thank you. Im at work! and link is blocked!!!!. Updates most gratefully received.

Maxim
-18th July 2009, 11:17
Russia 45 - 37 GB. Unfortunately, no other details.

Coupe du Nord
-18th July 2009, 11:18
GBR lost to Russia 45-37, now fence Germany in the 3 to 4 playoff.
Russia fence Italy in the final.

pinkelephant
-18th July 2009, 11:30
Italy v Germany looks as if it must have been exciting. Lead switching all over the place, Joppich v Baldini last fight with Joppich taking over well down, pulling it back to 43-43, then 2 lights, originally given to Joppich but then decision reversed, then 44-44 and finally a win for Italy.

smiley
-18th July 2009, 11:49
Thanks for the updates much appreciated. Come on GBR.

Red
-18th July 2009, 13:46
Hmmm... Have been fiddling around and worked out that GBR must finish 3rd to move above POL to 7th in the MFT world rankings. If they finish 4th, they'll stay 8th.
Either way, the worlds should be very interesting.

3rd place playoff has begun.
Kleibrink has opened up a 5/0 lead against Halsted.

Red
-18th July 2009, 13:53
Kruse v Joppich in p2. Joppich extends the lead by a hit to 9/3.

Red
-18th July 2009, 14:01
In p3, Kenber maintains the gap - now 13/7

Next - Kruse and Kleibrink

Red
-18th July 2009, 14:14
Kleibrink opens up the lead by a hit - now 19/12.

Halsted v Bachmann - right now it's 20/15

Red
-18th July 2009, 14:25
Bachmann extends the lead to 8 hits.
Kenber and Joppich. GER now have a 10 hit lead - 30/20

Red
-18th July 2009, 14:31
Kruse can only get 3 hits on Bachmann. Now 35/23

Now on - Kenber and Kleibrink

Red
-18th July 2009, 14:37
Kenber gets 5 to keep the 12 hit gap (40/28)
Final bout - Jefferies and Joppich for the bronze medal.
Jefferies very quickly got 3 hits, but Joppich then steamed to 45/31

smiley
-18th July 2009, 14:41
Thanks for the fantastic updates! WELL DONE to the team.

Rob.Leicester
-18th July 2009, 16:03
Does anyone know anything about where Sanzo's been this champtionships? Has he retired? I knew he hadn't entered much this season, but I assumed he was biding his time for the Euros and Worlds.

Mr long sword
-19th July 2009, 10:41
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOC5vDnwi1c

Mr long sword
-19th July 2009, 10:47
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th8_GnF3FIM

Rudd
-19th July 2009, 17:56
Does anyone know anything about where Sanzo's been this champtionships? Has he retired? I knew he hadn't entered much this season, but I assumed he was biding his time for the Euros and Worlds.

He's retired from competitive fencing.

Rob.Leicester
-19th July 2009, 18:39
He's retired from competitive fencing.

I was afraid that would be the case :(

Andy
-20th July 2009, 17:43
Saw this on the BBC site:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympic_games/8159063.stm

A