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gbm
-22nd December 2003, 19:23
The one thing that really, really does not work on swords is paint on the pommels/handle of a foil. The pommels on french grip foils are much better now, as they have a kind of protective bobble, but the spiky bits to improve grip just let the paint wear off really quickly.
And none of the aluminium handles I've ever seen that are reasonably old still have all the paint on them. I would love to find something really tough to stick on them. The only thing in maplin.co.uk that is a protective spray coating is PCB laquer, so I'm trying that.
Also, I have considered putting sections of heatshrink on the parts of bodywires that break most often (the bits near the plugs and clip where they flex most). Has anybody tried this?

reposte
-22nd December 2003, 19:45
Why would you want to keep the paint on? I have a new yellow Allstar/Uhlmann pistol grip and it has a considerable less "grip" in the palm, it slides much more than the old Aluminium ones.

gbm
-22nd December 2003, 21:23
Because it's illegal if it's not insulated...

By touching any metal part of your weapon to your jacket you will (on non-FIE boxes) cause your lame to be 'shorted' like your weapon is, making you invincible. On FIE boxes, it's a bit more complicated (usually there is a light that shows a short).

reposte
-23rd December 2003, 09:55
you can wrap isolation band around the protruding end of the grip. It was mandatory in the former USSR.

gbm
-23rd December 2003, 10:18
Is that a kind of tape? Because tape always looked stupid on french grip pommels. I can't see how tape could cover the whole of an aluminium handle well, I just see a mess. And technically the whole handle should be insulated. Heatshrink might work on the protruding bit (except the very tip, obviously).

Robert
-23rd December 2003, 17:29
Originally posted by goodbadandme
Because it's illegal if it's not insulated...

By touching any metal part of your weapon to your jacket you will (on non-FIE boxes) cause your lame to be 'shorted' like your weapon is, making you invincible. On FIE boxes, it's a bit more complicated (usually there is a light that shows a short).

You're taking this a little seriously. On a modern box (I tested ours at the club) it makes no difference and the hit is registered as normal. On an older box it will produce a short but it is easier in practice to bring the guard into contact than the handle.

Plenty of people use uninsulated handles at opens and it would be rather petty if they were called up on it.

Robert

neevel
-23rd December 2003, 19:22
If anything, you should be more concerned about an A-C short with an anti-blocking box, since that is something that can disadvantage you. The way anti-blocking works is that, if the box sees a resistance of less than 400 ohms between C (weapon) and A (lame), your weapon becomes part of the valid target. If you're seeing the yellow light for your side of the strip come on, it means that you've just given your opponent a whole bunch of additional target to register a colored light on. If you sweat a great deal, this can happen when your glove and jacket become sufficiently soaked that they make a bridge between an uninsulated foil grip and the alligator clip of the body cord (the way the clip is usually attached to the lame, it will be touching your jacket at least some of the time).

You can simply use some enamel paint to periodically touch up a painted grip. Another DIY option is to purchase some dip- or spray- latex coating. A couple of layers applied to the handle will resist getting dinged up for quite some time, and will provide a grippier surface to boot.

-Dave

gbm
-23rd December 2003, 19:32
I take everything a little seriously.:cool:
I honestly have never used a box on which it couldn't be done (unless my club's new Leon Paul box does it?). I don't think it's a problem only with older boxes, I think it is part of the design to some extent. The weapon is shorted out relative to the other fencer (through a separate wire in epee, through a cunning arrangement in foil). That's why you have to get the two weapon wires in a bodywire the right way round in foil or you can't score on-targets (unless you are touching them with the blade instead of the tip only) because the wired circuit is "live" and goes through the opponents's lame, and is disconnected from the 'shorted' weapon to cause a light (on or off-target) by the push-to-break switch. If your weapon comes in contact with your lame, the 'shorting' extends to the whole of the lame, which prevents hits to the lame in the same way hits to the weapon don't register. Same thing happens if your tape on the end of your sword is a bit naff, and it touches their lame. Suddenly it is impossible to hit them.
And really, there is no excuse for not taping up your weapon. Ever hit somebody, and it didn't light for some reason, and you never knew why? Maybe it was because your opponent doesn't look after his weapon properly and let it go illegal. You wouldn't be to happy if his spring was light, would you?
It's a good party trick, though. When on the box (don't try this at a competition, when you're testing at the start, hit them then sling your sword up onto your shoulder. Suddenly you are invincible!
It's not too bad when people are not deliberately trying to cheat. But armouring is full of stories (mostly about Russians) of cheats, like bare wires in epee that let you score spurious hits (why each wire has to be individually insulated and not taped down or covered in any way), loose points that can be unscrewed slightly with a quick hand action to cause the weapon to suddenly 'break'...

I've just remembered (after ranting about it) that you tested it (so I'm prepared to look silly). What brand of box is that (was it an FIE box), and are you sure that the handle wasn't insulated internally (I have little experience with aluminium handles). The rules say "At foil a hit made on a part of the foil may register if an uninsulated part of the weapon of the fencer is in contact with his conductive jacket." so that would mean that instead of not registering at all, it would allow off-targets to come up on the guard (which is still not ideal). Or it could be a mysterious "anti-blocking" box, as described in the rules, not affected at all by this (how they do this I don't know).

I should also point out I have only ever once seen a fancy FIE box, and wasn't fencing on it, so for people of my level (i.e. most people) this sort of thing is important even if FIE boxes aren't affected.

gbm
-23rd December 2003, 19:35
Is an alligator clip part of a two wire connection, instead of the bayonet plugs used by Leon Paul?
(incidentally the clown at the top of my last post was me)

pinkelephant
-2nd January 2004, 12:28
Originally posted by goodbadandme
Is an alligator clip part of a two wire connection, instead of the bayonet plugs used by Leon Paul?
(incidentally the clown at the top of my last post was me)

No - it's American for crocodile clip.

I have pulled people up at competitions for an uninsulated pommel on a french grip foil, but only after checking the box was too old to prevent "earthing out". The newer ones prevent the problem, which is actually a pain if you are testing for bald spots on a lame on the piste - it saves a lot of time if the fencer earths out his/her jacket and you then just keep prodding to find an off target light without having to wait for a coloured light to cancel.

Jayse Suicide
-20th January 2004, 00:23
Originally posted by goodbadandme
Is that a kind of tape? Because tape always looked stupid on french grip pommels. I can't see how tape could cover the whole of an aluminium handle well, I just see a mess. And technically the whole handle should be insulated. Heatshrink might work on the protruding bit (except the very tip, obviously).

says only the 'rear extremity' need be covered..though im in the states so it might be/is probably different..

you can tape or spray paint, as those are the only ideas for insulating i can come up with right now..

~Jes

Jayse Suicide
-20th January 2004, 00:47
Originally posted by pinkelephant
No - it's American for crocodile clip.

I have pulled people up at competitions for an uninsulated pommel on a french grip foil, but only after checking the box was too old to prevent "earthing out". The newer ones prevent the problem, which is actually a pain if you are testing for bald spots on a lame on the piste - it saves a lot of time if the fencer earths out his/her jacket and you then just keep prodding to find an off target light without having to wait for a coloured light to cancel.

i found also that if you're on a newer box, if you're testing for dead spots on your own lame, you can take the edge of your gaurd (or the end of your grip, if its uninsulated) and run it over your lame for dead spots. a yellow light should come up on the box, meaning that that spot is good, but if the light goes out then it means thats a dead spot.

~Jes