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spardacus
-16th January 2004, 19:35
I have just begun my fencing journey - having just completed my second class.

I have searched and really like the Leon Paul "Contour Fit Mask, F.I.E. approved with 1600 newton bib (Reference_280C_NEW)" for Foil/Epee.

Does anyone know if this mask has the removable bib compnent for washing, or is that only a trait found with the Sabre mask version?

Many Thanks,
I am spardacus

uk_45
-16th January 2004, 22:07
No the bib is held in place by rivits and isn't removable the only mask out with a removable bib from Leon Paul is the Sabre X-Change system mask.

spardacus
-17th January 2004, 11:32
uk_45,

Thanks for the confirmation.

Do you or anyone for that matter have opinions and insights into a GREAT foil/epee mask with removable bib for laudry?

Thanks,
I am spardacus

gbm
-20th January 2004, 22:05
Just doing my bit as an accidental Leon Paul salesman (I'm not really).
Firstly, masks come in 350N (club standard) or 1600N (super high level competition standard) safety specifications. 350N is fine generally.
Secondly, Leon Paul masks are fitted with either with the standard spring clip, or with the added option of the Contour Fit system (which is well worth the extra fiver).
Thirdly, Leon Paul have invented the X-Change system for its FIE electric sabre mask, where the bib of the mask is not permanently attached to the mask, but is removable, and so can be washed. These removable bibs come in standard (for foil/epee) and lame (for sabre) versions.
Obviously, masks are also available in foil/epee (insulated with thick rubber over the joins) and electric sabre (where the bib is lame, and the whole mask is conducting, as all the joins are metal and the mesh is uninsulated).
The very cheapest mask is a non-electric foil mask (although technically it does all three weapons), which is made much like a foil/epee mask, except that the mesh is uninsulated and it is horrible to use as your face tends to rest up against it (it's not nice when you get hit in the face), as opposed to better masks where the forehead restraint keeps your face from getting smashed in. I would not recommend this mask at all, not for the small amount of money you are saving over a proper foil/epee mask, and you can't use it for electric fencing except at low level foil/epee competitions where you can sometimes get away with it (as for electric foil/epee I think it should be insulated, and it is completely unsuitable for electric sabre as there is rubber on it and no lame bib).
In price order from cheap to most expensive, these are the foil/epee masks (together with fitting options) I would recommend.
The F100 "Mask foil/épée insulated unisex 350 newton bib" which unfortunately does not come with the option of Contour Fit (are you listening Barry Paul? Some of us club people would like comfortable Contour Fit masks!), which costs £55.40 inc. VAT, and is the most popular Leon Paul mask.
Unfortunately, if you want a slightly better mask, you have to move to 1600N FIE masks.
The 280 "Mask F.I.E. 1600 newton bib" with the option of Contour Fit selected, costs £88.67 inc. VAT + £5 (+VAT?) for the Contour Fit, and is much like the F100, except stronger bib material is used.
If you want to have a removable bib, then you are forced to use the S11CX "Mask FIE X-Change Sabre Mask", which doesn't seem to have the option of Contour Fit on the web site but I think you can only get it with Contour Fit. Presumably you would have to buy a Foil/epee non-lame bib for it. This costs £124.90, and is definitely getting up to the top end of prices. Again this is 1600N.
If you want to go out and look like a n*b in the World Champions, then the 285C "Mask vision 2000 F.I.E.transparent visor 1600 newton bib" is the way to go. This features a super-strength see-through visor in the center of the mesh, which it is stronger than. This comes with the Contour Fit as standard, however I do not believe the X-Change system is available for this mask. This mask costs a rather large £190.39 inc. VAT. This also has a 1600N mask.
If however you just want to stop your mask getting smelly, then Leon Paul bibs have a water-resistant lining on the inside, and this can simply be wiped down with a cloth. Most people seem too lazy to clean their fencing kit very often, however.
And remember Barry Paul, if your listening, I would like to be able to buy a 350N Contour Fit mask when my existing one wears out! Even if it cost £10-20 more, instead of a fiver.

--
The good fencer, the bad fencer and me.

The Little Un
-21st January 2004, 04:10
Dear Spardacus,
Right now I would not suggest buying weapons or masks, try and test out various types to see which one suits you best. Personally I would suggest that when you do, you get 1600 bibs, especially if you are going to do epee or sabre.


Best wishes,
Judy

jamesthornton
-21st January 2004, 10:00
the xchange bib is more for replacement when it gets dsmaged than washing anyway as tpo be honest ur mask does not need washing thast often and when it does aparently u can dip the bib in a bowl of soapy water. so go for the mask u think will be the most comfortable. which is probably the contour fit leon paul one.

kingkenny
-22nd January 2004, 15:38
F100 mask 350 newton with contour fit is now available.
We just have to put it on the website. Its £5.00 more but well worth it.
soon you will get a mailshot about this new product called the F100C.......(exciting name).

spardacus
-22nd January 2004, 15:44
I just ordered the "280C NEW" mask.

What are the differences between the 280C and the F100?

uk_45
-22nd January 2004, 16:04
The 280C is a F.I.E mask this means the bib will sustain a force of 1600N where as the F100 is not a FIE mask and will only sustain 350N. FIE masks are compulsary for any international or A-Grade event.

sparkymark567
-28th January 2004, 19:46
Originally posted by Kingkenny
F100 mask 350 newton with contour fit is now available.
We just have to put it on the website. Its £5.00 more but well worth it.
soon you will get a mailshot about this new product called the F100C.......(exciting name).

But you get less for your money, why pay more for something less. Surely the contour fit mask is actually easier and cheaper to make.

And what happens when the elastic breaks. Ooops.

sparkymark567
-28th January 2004, 19:57
and.... from my last post....... I prefer the older type and would actually pay more for it. So in my opinion you might aswell re-classify the contour fit as an economy option. You could call it the Budget!!

but in fairness, I've heard that many people do prefer the Contour fit mask... and say that they are more comfortable. I just thought I'd post my opinion so we get a balanced argument.

symon
-15th February 2004, 22:32
Originally posted by Kingkenny
soon you will get a mailshot about this new product called the F100C.......(exciting name).

aww you can't leave us hanging like this KK what the differences between the f100 and the new f100c?

Rdb811
-15th February 2004, 23:19
£10 ?????

uk_45
-16th February 2004, 09:48
Contour Fit (already got the E-Mail) and the 'c' is abit of a giove away!

symon
-16th February 2004, 17:34
YOU ARE kiddinng arn't you??? the only differences between f100 and f100c is that the c model has contour fit!!:o

Barry Paul
-16th February 2004, 17:51
Is that the Contour fit has three part assembly and an extra velcro attached to the mask so the fore head pad can be position in a wide range of locations, the forehead pad, which has a covering of moisture control wicking material which evaporates sweat away. The fixings use a hight strength velcro which means the mask conforms to the CEN requirements when the mask is struck during use. This system is covered by pending patent applications and is the first major inovation in mask fitting and comfort in 50 years. Not bad for only a extra £5.46p. Barry Paul M.D. Leon Paul

uk_45
-16th February 2004, 18:06
nope im not the following is taken from the above mentioned newletter:

For the first time the Contour Fit System
is available on standard 350 Newton masks.
The patented Contour Fit System is a revolutionary design for fencing masks. It utilises stretch Velcro to enable a moulded polycarbonate disc to be perfectly positioned on the back of the head. This means the mask now has five point adjustment rather than the standard two. Also the removal of the metal spring case reduces the total weight by 10% making it the most comfortable mask in the world.
Click here for more detail.

uk_45
-16th February 2004, 18:08
PS. Sorry barry did not see your above post and would like to agree contour fit is great especialy if you wear glasses.

sparkymark567
-19th February 2004, 01:59
"The best innovation in 50 years"

and the vision 2000 mask as great innovation too.

What happened to them by the way?

wingnutLP
-19th February 2004, 08:07
You may be seeing a lot more of them soon! see http://fencingforum.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=853&highlight=sabre+lame+mask for details.

Barry Paul
-19th February 2004, 08:24
If you are taking the quote 'the best innovation for 50 years' from my posting you should at least get the quote right, what I said was

'is the first major inovation in mask fitting and comfort in 50 years. Not bad for only a extra £5.46p'
As for the Vision 2000.
Vision 2000 was certainly taken up by more fencers and top fencers in UK than any other transparent mask in any other country. They were well made ie safe and designed with design feactures giving maximum ventilation, and a unique outer cover as a replaceable scratch layer. Like many new products in what is a conservative sport they need time to gain acceptance. The real problem is that they were IMO 90% right. To get them 100% right it needs a redesign using the experience with the vision 2000. The new masks would be lighter in weight, more air flow management, probably with an option of a small fan, partly made using very expensive plastic mouldings. With our present continued growth we don't have time to persue this project. But one day transparent masks will be used giving the fencers using them an edge, at which point they will become a must have item. Barry Paul M.D. Leon Paul

sparkymark567
-19th February 2004, 20:42
Regardless of success/ failure /relative possible improvements, we all like to see new products and ideas in what (as Barry says) is a conservitve sport.

and in recent years it does appear that most new ideas have come from Leon Paul. So keep up the good work!
Without trying new ideas, we'll never find the good ones.

I'll reserve judgement on the contour fit for the mo. I can't really say whether it's a good or bad idea . I suppose I'll just have to try one and see how long it lasts etc; but for now I'm sticking with the safe option, i.e. the proven system.

uk_45
-19th February 2004, 20:46
Im all for the contour fit is great the grip of the mask on your head is better than i spring case. Was well worth sending the mask back and fussing sorry barry

And i can't think of a majour devolpment it kit the wasn't LP keep up the good work!

Gunslinger
-12th March 2004, 14:58
Just picked up my new mask with contour system, must say it is the business!!! Feel nice and snug can't wait to test it out!!

My advice.... Buy one!!!

gbm
-12th March 2004, 15:37
If you've got an old F100 mask, can you get contour fit fitted to it, for example when you get it rebibbed?
How much would Leon Paul charge?

PKT
-14th March 2004, 06:37
Originally posted by goodbadandme
...
Thirdly, Leon Paul have invented the X-Change system for its FIE electric sabre mask, where the bib of the mask is not permanently attached to the mask, but is removable, and so can be washed. These removable bibs come in standard (for foil/epee) and lame (for sabre) versions.
...

--
The good fencer, the bad fencer and me.

1. the bib should only be washed very, very occassionally and with great care;
2. as Barry paul informed me in 2003/11 there is no "standard", non-lame' bib for the X-change mask; i can, of course be wrong as a result of LP changing their mind and introduced teh non-lame' bib for this mask. I just confirmed this with a visit to the "spares and accessories" section at the site below
http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Spares_and_Accessories_39.html
and no non-lame' bib is visible.

that said, perhaps if we inundated Barry Paul with requests for non-lame' bibs for the X-change mask maybe LP will relent.

while u r at it, ask the to do ALL their masks in the X-change mask fashion, with removable bib and the contour-fit system as standard.

pk

gbm
-14th March 2004, 20:49
My mistake. I just thought it was one of the features they were touting when they first came out with it, but obviously not. The site (when you click More Information) does say:
"1. The bib and all the padding can be removed and machine-washed.". I wish they'd make up their mind as to whether you can or cannot machine wash lames...

PKT
-15th March 2004, 05:31
poorly written English :grin: takes an ESL - English as Second Language - person to point that out, hah!
Who knows, may be it's Barry's handiwork!!! ;)

Oh. to clarify further:
of course you can machine-wash your lame', or your X-change mask's bib, you just have to go visit LP for a replacement, that's all. :tongue: this is better than "planned obsolesence".

PK

M C
-22nd March 2004, 22:53
Is the mesh on an FIE mask stronger as well as the bib? My FIE mask seems to have been dented a lot less than my old (pre-350N) one, meaning it's lasted a lot longer.

Barry Paul
-23rd March 2004, 12:55
The standard mesh on the 350 is made to CEN level 1 and the F.i.E. is made to the higher strength of CENL level 2. ( approx twice as strong). Barry Paul

gbm
-23rd March 2004, 13:25
The inside of my F100 mask's bib has started to get tatty (the sewing is cutting through the lining and exposing the foam). Does this affect safety (since it's only the inner lining)?

Barry Paul
-23rd March 2004, 18:13
the bibs on the f100 have an outer cloth of about 470 Newtons. So wear on the inside will not affect the safety. Barry Paul.