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DrT
-19th January 2004, 12:51
Can someone offer some guidance on what to do when presiding on a non-insulted piste? For example, in an epee fight, A hits B on the arm, B hits the floor, resulting in two lights.

Clearly, on an insulated piste you only get one light and A scores, but on non-insulated pistes I've seen people give no hit and restart the fight.

Next time this happens when I'm presiding, what do I do?

pinkelephant
-19th January 2004, 13:15
The fencer who hits the opponent gets the hit. The one who hits the floor doesn't. If one hit is clean and the other is doubtful, the fencer scoring the clean hit gets the choice of whether to score the double, or neither.

DrT
-19th January 2004, 13:29
That seems pretty fair :)

Just to clarify another situation: If a fencer goes for the foot but I'm not 100% sure he didn't hit the floor first, should I annul the hit? I guess this applies equally to either type of piste.

srb
-19th January 2004, 13:32
If there is doubt, don't give the hit. However, ask for floor judges to prevent this happening again.

srb

DrT
-19th January 2004, 13:38
Yes, I should have done that. Out of interest, what is the proceedure with floor judges if they disagree? Does the president have a deciding vote?

pinkelephant
-19th January 2004, 14:33
Originally posted by DrT
That seems pretty fair :)

Just to clarify another situation: If a fencer goes for the foot but I'm not 100% sure he didn't hit the floor first, should I annul the hit? I guess this applies equally to either type of piste.

No. On a metal piste the apparatus won't register on the floor, so you should give the hit. The only thing you need to check is that there isn't a hole in the piste, or a bit of fluff on it, which could have caused a floor hit to register. You also need to make sure the hit wasn't outside the piste (unlikely if foot was hit), or, if the fencers were very close together, on his or her own person (yes, it happens).

pinkelephant
-19th January 2004, 14:37
Originally posted by DrT
Yes, I should have done that. Out of interest, what is the proceedure with floor judges if they disagree? Does the president have a deciding vote?

The floor judges are only there to assist the referee - "voting" doesn't come into it, though a referee would have to be pretty sure of him/herself to overrrule both judges. It's not like steam foil where the ref has 1.5 votes and the judges 1 each (which, incidentally, isn't in the rule book any more as the FIE no longer recognises the existence of steam foil or indeed anything other than its own competitions). If the judges disagree and the referee abstains, no hit should be awarded, but if the referee has an opinion, that opinion should stand.

clockity
-19th January 2004, 15:17
Check that the metal piste is grounded properlly, and the ground leads are connected correctly. That is if you're refering to the Aldershot Open metal pistes (which were grounded to their by sabre mask clips) that kept disconnecting themselves as the spools travelled towards the centre of the piste...

DrT
-19th January 2004, 15:59
Originally posted by pinkelephant
No. On a metal piste the apparatus won't register on the floor, so you should give the hit. The only thing you need to check is that there isn't a hole in the piste, or a bit of fluff on it, which could have caused a floor hit to register. You also need to make sure the hit wasn't outside the piste (unlikely if foot was hit), or, if the fencers were very close together, on his or her own person (yes, it happens).

So, what if a fencer runs his/her point along the floor before making contact with the oponent's toe? Is this ok??

Robert
-19th January 2004, 17:54
Originally posted by DrT
So, what if a fencer runs his/her point along the floor before making contact with the oponent's toe? Is this ok??

The rules explicity forbid that particular action (though I didn't know that on the one occasion when I saw an epeist doing it). Void the hit, politely tell the fencer that it is illegal. If they persist start awarding cards.

Robert

Rdb811
-19th January 2004, 23:32
Not good for the piste (at least the rol up ones).

rory
-20th January 2004, 08:16
It's not so much that it's bad for the piste - the FIE couldn't care less about damaged kit. The problem is that if you hit the piste with your weapon it can momentarily cause a spike in the box, which could prevent a hit registering.

Cyranox11
-20th January 2004, 11:56
Originally posted by srb
If there is doubt, don't give the hit. However, ask for floor judges to prevent this happening again.

srb

According to all the refereeing advice I have heard, as well as advice from some highly regarded FIE accredited refs who have reffed at OGs and WCs, you should only NOT award a hit if you are 100% sure that it did not hit valid target. Thus, if in doubt award the hit.
This is in line with the principle of the ref affecting the result of a bout as little as possible whilst being fair.
This applies only to fencing on earthed pistes, when fencing on un-earthed pistes ALWAYS have floor judges.
AVOID fencing epee on unearthed pistes, wait AVOID fencing on unearthed pistes...

DrT
-20th January 2004, 11:59
Is there anything in the rule book on the issue of doubtful hits?

Insipiens
-21st January 2004, 12:10
Originally posted by Cyranox11

AVOID fencing epee on unearthed pistes, wait AVOID fencing on unearthed pistes...

You forgot AVOID fencing epee ;)

randomsabreur
-21st January 2004, 14:00
At sabre, an insulated piste can cause a few problems, like lights coming up when fencers are nowhere near each other. So unless sabre isn't within your definition of fencing, saying avoid fencing on non-insulated pistes is not true. Also, if you are feeling poor, and you want to keep your fencing shoes hole free for 6 months 'til you start work, fencing on a metal piste is a nightmare, each fight on metal is at least a month less wear in your shoes.

That said, refereeing small children at foil on a non insulated piste is not at all fun.

UglyBug
-21st January 2004, 14:10
Wasn't aware that refereeing small children at foil was fun full stop!

Rdb811
-21st January 2004, 15:36
At least the very small ones don't give you any grief when you get it completely wrong.

UglyBug
-21st January 2004, 15:59
True - I was asked to referee at a LPJS foil and so I trotted along thinking - cute little people who think I am all-seeing and all-knowing and so on, will be a nice day. First off, got the U15 boys!!! Horrible stroppy adolescents. Then, I got the U10 girls (more my cup of tea) and the mothers got involved. Very scary - one of the girls had signed a poule sheet that had a victory for her reversed to a 2-5 loss. Obviously did odd things to the rankings (she was blatantly going to win the whole thing) and another girl's mum refused to let her daughter fence until the 2nd round of poules was re-seeded. Then the other mums joined in, despite DT pointing out that poule sheets were signed and seedings had been up for checking. Then all the little girls started to cry and said they just wanted to fence.

After that, I got the youngest boys group. Very cute - especially one little boy who refused to take his mask off for the entire poule... And they all thought I was wonderful.

Cyranox11
-22nd January 2004, 07:04
Originally posted by randomsabreur
At sabre, an insulated piste can cause a few problems, like lights coming up when fencers are nowhere near each other. So unless sabre isn't within your definition of fencing, saying avoid fencing on non-insulated pistes is not true.

What sabre is fencing :confused:
????
Since when no-body told me...
Did I miss the circular again???
:grin:

Sorry, you are of course right...
At sabre it is better to disconnect the 'earth' lead between the piste and the box...

But I would advise avoiding the non-insulated piste and foil combination:
'En-Garde, ready, fence!
Halt off target, floor
En garde, ready fence!
Halt off target floor...
etc etc etc