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oddball
-21st January 2004, 09:49
does anyone out there use one? incidentally, is it still legal in comps? just interested cos i seem 2 be da only person in my club who ever uses an italian foil.

TAJ83
-21st January 2004, 11:12
I don't use one, but I've always wanted to have a go. I was actually looking at some italian grip foils on Allstar just before I came here.

My understanding is that they are illegal in competitions, because your fingers can get caught in the grip if you get disarmed, which can result in broken fingers. I may be wrong on that one though!

rory
-21st January 2004, 11:35
They're legal.
See the rulebook m.4 for details - nothing here prohibits the use of an Italian grip (which is why Allstar still sell them!)

Rdb811
-21st January 2004, 14:59
It requires coaching in th Itlaian style - you cannot just use instead of a French or pistol grip.

neevel
-22nd January 2004, 04:53
They are completely legal in competitions, with one caveat: nobody makes FIE homologated Italian-style blades, so anyone wishing to use an Italian foil at a tournament requiring FIE kit and weapons would need to rig up a false-ricasso to use a French-tang blade with the grip.

-Dave

plewis66
-22nd January 2004, 08:21
Oddball, out of interest, do you use the wrist strap, as well?

oddball
-22nd January 2004, 11:48
no, i don't use da wrist strap. main problem is that you have to use your wrist not your fingers to control the blade.

Pointy stick
-24th January 2004, 20:23
A few months ago, as a new poster in this forum, I got involved in a lot of discussion about grips - mainly because I was a little dissapointed to find that fencing sword handles didn't look much like sword handles. I had a sort of 'romantic' objection to something which made the sport less like sword fighting.

The arguments in favour of the modern pistol/orthopaedic grip were mainly on the basis of utility: it's easier to use, stronger, and more versatile than a French grip, offering a wider range of angulation, and less chance of dropping the weapon.

(I fought French grip steam for a few minutes last night and was disarmed for the first time in months. Point taken.)

So, on the basis of 'natural selection', if the French school (but with modern grip) has prevailed, what are your reasons for wanting to try Italian? Just curious.:)

Eddie
-25th January 2004, 17:36
I started off with an italian grip foil and still use them from time to time. They were great for learning point control and but i don't think any one uses the wrist strap anymore as it then becomes physically impossible to parry prime without breaking either your wrist or fingers. They do tend to go hand in hand with coaching styles as rdb811 said, the emphasis with the italian one being on stop hits and timing. We still use them from time to time uot in italy but you mainly get kids using them and then they move straight onto orthopaedic grips
Eddie

oddball
-28th January 2004, 09:22
pointy stick

found one in my grandpas fencing kit and borrowed it

sparkymark567
-28th January 2004, 22:53
Hi, I was just curious. What's a french grip????

Are they like the things you see in old fashioned pictures of fencing?

They seem most bizarre to me.

Dalby
-29th January 2004, 12:22
Isn't it all a bit of a myth that the French school has prevailed?

These blasted orthopaedic grips & their kin mean that all of the action tends to come from the wrist & forearm and not from the fingers. All of which suggests that the Italians have won the evolutionary battle of fencing styles by stealth after all.
:moan:

plewis66
-29th January 2004, 12:31
I thought that the control was still meant to come from your fingers when using an orthopaedic grip, and the the othopodial bits were just to help when beating, froisementing, flicking, etc., by providing a better surface against which to apply sudden, sharp pressure?

Dalby
-29th January 2004, 13:30
I've heard that theory.


I can't say that I've ever seen it done in practice.


I'm not trying to suggest that there is anything bad in using the orthopaedic grip, I'm just saying that modern sport fencing owes more to the Italian school than is generally credited.

plewis66
-29th January 2004, 14:09
Fair point.

JohnL
-29th January 2004, 14:24
Not even the Italians use Italian grips anymore.

oddball
-29th January 2004, 16:54
Originally posted by JohnL
Not even the Italians use Italian grips anymore.

hey, I'm part Italian!

(but thats not why I use it)

fair point though

oddball
-29th January 2004, 16:57
by the way, anyone seen a figure-of-eight foil guard? just curious as I saw someone with one and wondered if it's possible to get hold of one.

yes, I know this has nothing to do with this thread!

Dalby
-29th January 2004, 20:37
I think that Leon Paul have figure of eight guards on some of their reproduction foils in their catalogue on their website.

oddball
-30th January 2004, 07:47
do they do figure-of-eight guards on ordinary foils? (don't care if its legal or not!)

Dalby
-30th January 2004, 11:49
Not sure that a figure of eight guard is exactly the smartest move. When they were still in use foilists used to wear something that looked like a boxing glove to protect the hand!

oddball
-3rd February 2004, 16:09
this is just me being interested in obscure types of weapon

fencingmaster
-14th February 2004, 14:45
I use an Italian grip when teaching, although not recommending them for fencing.

The advantage when teaching is that, because the grip is basically asymetrical, I can easily change from left to right hand in a lesson.

Winwaloe
-17th February 2004, 10:57
I noticed fencingmaster using an Italian grip and thought the left/right hand idea good. As I don't have an Italian grip I put an old sabre handle on and this also works very well.

oddball
-11th March 2004, 11:35
Not as mad as I thought!!

Chris
-19th March 2004, 19:21
Originally posted by fencingmaster
I use an Italian grip when teaching, although not recommending them for fencing.

The advantage when teaching is that, because the grip is basically asymetrical, I can easily change from left to right hand in a lesson.

Odd question this, but is it legal to change hands during a fight? Presumably more likely to be allowed to between points or something...could really mess someone up though if you were talented with both hands (Princess Bride :D )...err, guess it would only work for steam though to do it effectively, unless you had a customised body wire :/

Robert
-19th March 2004, 23:27
Originally posted by Chris
Odd question this, but is it legal to change hands during a fight? Presumably more likely to be allowed to between points or something...could really mess someone up though if you were talented with both hands (Princess Bride :D )...err, guess it would only work for steam though to do it effectively, unless you had a customised body wire :/

No. You cannot change during a fight, but you can change between bouts.

Robert

P.S It is no easier to change hands with an Italian with any other grip. The blade is still set.

Chris
-20th March 2004, 00:33
Presumably, if you were fencing with your off hand, and pointed towards your target, the set would just be the same as your normal sword arm?

reposte
-20th March 2004, 08:05
These blasted orthopaedic grips & their kin mean that all of the action tends to come from the wrist & forearm and not from the fingers. All of which suggests that the Italians have won the evolutionary battle of fencing styles by stealth after all.

Italian grip is all about fingers. More so even then the French.


Not even the Italians use Italian grips anymore

Actually, not so true...

Robert
-20th March 2004, 10:35
Originally posted by Chris
Presumably, if you were fencing with your off hand, and pointed towards your target, the set would just be the same as your normal sword arm?

No, set is down as well as to the target. So when you turn the handle over it is now pointing up into the air.

Robert

Chris
-20th March 2004, 12:44
ah right, cheers

Dalby
-20th March 2004, 14:46
Originally posted by Robert
No, set is down as well as to the target. So when you turn the handle over it is now pointing up into the air.
That's jolly odd; all of the Italian grip foils I've ever seen (in life as well as in illustration) have been without set.

Thinking about it, the lunettes preclude setting a foil in the usual place (at the guard) - you'd have make any set on that part of the tang below the lunettes.

The lunettes and the guard are of a piece, see for example Negrini Italian Grip Foil Specs (http://www.negrini.com/EArt190.htm).

Are there any Italian "grippers" out there who can comment?


Originally posted by reposte
Italian grip is all about fingers. More so even then the French.
Incredibly deep scepticism - especially when one considers the use of the martingale wrist-strap.

I am, however, willing to be convinced; again, can any Italian grippers comment?

reposte
-20th March 2004, 16:00
Incredibly deep scepticism

In a pure coincidence, my trainer spoke of it to me not two days ago, saying that the Italian grip is all about fingering because there is no actual grip of the grip, that is to say, the hand does not clasp the grip save in the controlling fingers, the other fingers being twined in the loops the grip has. It is the most non palm grip there is, which is why you need the strap btw, because a wide and fast angulation of the blade will scoop the blade out of the thumb and index finger.

Dalby
-22nd March 2004, 08:43
Sorry reposte, still not convinced.

The side-effect of the martingale strap is to make the pommel the fulcrum of any motion: in the French grip the fulcrum is the point of contact between thumb and index finger.

The fact that the martingale strap locks the pommel to the wrist means that the effective scope of movement acheivable through the fingers is very limited.

Still willing to be convinced.

oddball
-22nd March 2004, 11:37
Blimey this has got technical!!