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Fox66
-2nd November 2010, 12:27
Does anyone know the team list for GBR?
cant find it on the BF website and the official event website is, er, not very good, lots of it doesnt work!

Ta

thedoc
-2nd November 2010, 12:45
http://www.escrime-2010.com/competition/competiteurs?lang=fr

I'd say the official website is working ok, but there is the full list for you

rpryer
-2nd November 2010, 12:48
The team is on the BF site - except that Richard Kruse has had to pull out due to injury - http://britishfencing.com/news/notices/?n=161.

Insipiens
-2nd November 2010, 12:58
http://www.escrime-2010.com/competition/competiteurs?lang=fr

I'd say the official website is working ok, but there is the full list for you
Well chosing the English language button results in a fatal error for me; although you hardly need it to look at the fencers for Royaume-Uni.

BigPappaBear
-2nd November 2010, 12:59
I get the feeling that the website builders went on strike half way through the job...

Fox66
-2nd November 2010, 14:18
http://www.escrime-2010.com/competition/competiteurs?lang=fr

I'd say the official website is working ok, but there is the full list for you

Thanks for this!
Silly me I tried to view it in English and got:

Fatal error: Call to a member function redirect() on a non-object in /data/services/web/escrime-2010.com/components/com_flexicontent/models/items.php on line 178

Fox66
-2nd November 2010, 14:19
Hi thanks for the replies, it seems just the English version is broken

Fox66
-2nd November 2010, 14:20
I get the feeling that the website builders went on strike half way through the job...

:) seesm so...!

Hassan
-2nd November 2010, 15:55
I think everyone will have better luck here...

http://www.fencingworldwide.com/

Fox66
-2nd November 2010, 16:00
Thanks Hassan, look good!

hokers
-3rd November 2010, 17:01
I think everyone will have better luck here...

http://www.fencingworldwide.com/

Poules are now up on this site.

Mr long sword
-3rd November 2010, 18:43
excuse my ignorance but in the 'fencers at the start' bit several fencers are 'exempted'...what does this mean..?

TomA
-3rd November 2010, 19:10
They have byes straight to the DE, à la World Cup style IIRC.

Mr long sword
-3rd November 2010, 22:09
Really...how..?

Apithy of FRA has a world ranking of 17 but is in the poules and his team mate Lopez is ranked 19th but is exempt...
Do they work on an older ranking..?

wix
-3rd November 2010, 22:33
As the Worlds are at the end of the 2009-10 season they use the rankings at end of that season. On those rankings Lopez was 15th and Apithy 20th.

cesh_fencing
-4th November 2010, 01:27
Huge entry of 203 in the mens epee, almost 50 more entries than in the mens foil.

Such a large entry in the mens epee will make any result gained by the boys really impressive. Good luck on Friday.

Interesting that the smallest event is Womens Foil with only 90, over 20 less than the next smallest which is womens sabre.

pinkelephant
-4th November 2010, 07:21
It was the same pattern in Leipzig - WF was the smallest. Not in Lobnya, though.Don't forget our wheelchair fencers are also competing.

Meg_SF
-4th November 2010, 09:14
Are they fencing today? If so, which events? Good luck GB!!!

Exciting :-)

hokers
-4th November 2010, 09:51
Yes, WE.

Hannah 1/6 cut
Corinna 4/6 (40th seed) vs HURLEY (USA) at 11:20
Jayne 3/6 (74th seed) vs MOELLHAUSEN (ITA) at 11:00
Mary 2/6 cut

hokers
-4th November 2010, 10:39
Both now out.

Lynne
-4th November 2010, 11:26
Men's Foil starts 1430 British Time.

Lynne
-4th November 2010, 11:44
WE results:Corinna Lawrence 68Jayne Crook 84Mary Cohen 104Hannah Lawrence 127

cesh_fencing
-4th November 2010, 12:23
Of local interest, Jess Beer through to L64. Now faces 2nd seed.

hokers
-4th November 2010, 12:34
Neil has finished his poule in MS.
3/5 indicating +6

Alex is 2/3 so far, Owen is 1/3.

tigger
-4th November 2010, 13:36
According to latest pool result Alex was 5-1.

Neil fences Dolniceanu in L128

hokers
-4th November 2010, 13:36
Alex 5/6 indicating +14! Seeded 28th
Owen 2/6 indicating -11. Seeded 94th has MOHSIN (IRQ) (11-6 up at the moment) edit: won 15-9
Neil 63rd seed has DOLNICEANU (ROU) at 1500

hokers
-4th November 2010, 14:33
Owen out to ILIASZ (HUN) 94th overall
Neil out to DOLNICEANU (ROU) 74th overall
Alex has SKRODZI (POL) tomorrow, 0915 Paris time.

DSSabre
-4th November 2010, 15:31
Hokers think you mean saturday not tomorrow. Women's sabre poules are tomorrow.

DS

hokers
-4th November 2010, 16:01
Ah OK. I was guessing because it doesn't say the date on the fencingworldwide site, just the time.

hokers
-4th November 2010, 16:33
MF
Jamie 4/6 indicating +4
Lawrence 6/6 indicating +18!
Ed 3/5 indicating +7 (two 5-4 defeats)
Rhys 3/5 indicating -5

No ranking up yet.

UglyBug
-4th November 2010, 16:43
Think Halsted will be ~3rd out of those who did the poules. One Korean got +23 and there are some others in the teens.

hokers
-4th November 2010, 17:02
OK

Jamie seeded 58 has 71 JORGENSEN (DEN) at 18:20
Ed seeded 66 has 63 LYSHKOVSKI (BLR) at 18:35
Rhys 75 has 53 LALONDE (CAN) at 18:20
Lawwrence has a bye into the next round, 22nd of the 32 who do.

Lefty Foilist
-4th November 2010, 17:11
That local time or BST Hokers?

JulianRose
-4th November 2010, 17:13
all times are local times on the fencing worldwide website, which is what is being quoted here.

Mr long sword
-4th November 2010, 17:17
Apithy vs Homer..!!! That de should leave the piste red hot.!!!

Danum
-4th November 2010, 18:01
Well done Rhys

Danum
-4th November 2010, 18:02
Well done Jamie

Rob.Leicester
-4th November 2010, 18:06
Apithy vs Homer..!!! That de should leave the piste red hot.!!!

Yes please!!!

Danum
-4th November 2010, 18:14
Ed 2-6 down end of first period

Danum
-4th November 2010, 18:20
Now 4-8 down end of second period.

benjt
-4th November 2010, 18:31
WOOP WOOP Well Done Edd

Danum
-4th November 2010, 18:31
Great result Ed wins 15-14

pinkelephant
-4th November 2010, 18:38
Looks like that's all 4 of the MF through to the L64.

Barry Paul
-4th November 2010, 19:58
Is the last 64 tonight or when?

Rudd
-4th November 2010, 20:07
Sunday.

http://www.fencing.net/3503/watching-the-2010-fencing-world-championships/

Lynne
-5th November 2010, 09:17
Men's Epée first round:JW 5/6NP 5/5Tom Bennett still to fence.

hokers
-5th November 2010, 09:24
Men's Epée first round:JW 5/6NP 5/5Tom Bennett still to fence.

Forum keeps messing up formatting at the moment, let me try

Men's Epée first round:
JW 5/6 (+14)
NP 5/5 (+12)
Tom Bennett still to fence.

hokers
-5th November 2010, 11:08
Tom finishes 3/6 (+5) seeded 95, has 98 ANDRZEJUK (POL) at 12:40
Fenwick (IRL) is 2/6 (-2) seeded 134 has 59 KHODOS (RUS) at 12:40

JW seeded 36, no DE opponent up yet.
NP seeded 25 and has a bye to the next round.

hokers
-5th November 2010, 12:32
Tom out to ANDRZEJUK.
JW has 100 BERAN (CZE) at 13:20.
Fenwick beats KHODOS, now has 123 LEVIT (ISR) at 13:20

pinkelephant
-5th November 2010, 13:01
Tom finishes 3/6 (+5) seeded 95, has 98 ANDRZEJUK (POL) at 12:40
Fenwick (IRL) is 2/6 (-2) seeded 134 has 59 KHODOS (RUS) at 12:40

JW seeded 36, no DE opponent up yet.
NP seeded 25 and has a bye to the next round.

Nick's Bye is to the L64, not just the next round.

pinkelephant
-5th November 2010, 13:03
Jonny out to Beran 15-14. Andy also out.

TomA
-5th November 2010, 13:03
Willis out 15-14 to Beran. :(

Edit: Oops, beaten to it.

hokers
-5th November 2010, 14:10
WS Poules:

KK 3/6 (+3)
LBW 4/6 (+9)
JoJo 3/6 (+1)
Chrystall 6/6 (+14)

hokers
-5th November 2010, 14:35
Jojo seeded 63, has 66 GRENCH (PAN) at 1600
KK seeded 60 has HATZIGEORGIOU (GRE) at 15:30
LBW seeded 43 bye to next round
Chrystall seeded 21 bye to next NEXT round.

hokers
-5th November 2010, 15:17
Jojo just came back from 12-4 down to win 15-13!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hokers
-5th November 2010, 15:28
KK is through 15-2 faces 8 GAVRILOVA (RUS) in the next phase
Chrystall has 44 VILA (ESP) in the next phase
LBW has 22 MUNTEANU (ROU) in the next phase
Jojo has 7 PERRUS (FRA) in the next phase

Very impressive to get everyone through to the next round!

hokers
-5th November 2010, 15:43
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/fencing/9162661.stm

kingkenny
-5th November 2010, 16:05
Please note that KK is not the awesome Kingkenny but some other person.

hokers
-5th November 2010, 16:51
WF Poules finally finished.

Natalia 4/6 (+7)
Anna 2/6 (-8)
Hannah 2/5 (-3)
Martina 3/5 (+3)

No seedings or DE up yet.

Lefty Foilist
-5th November 2010, 18:01
MF DEs are:
RM vs Ota (JPN)
JK vs Meinhardt (USA)
EJ vs Le Pechoux (FRA)
LH vs Hatoel (ISR)

Go GB! (cue visit to Youtube for patriotic British music)

cesh_fencing
-6th November 2010, 09:45
Jo and Crystal into L32

Alex (MS) and Louise out in L64s.

Hassan
-6th November 2010, 10:50
http://www.atleticomtv.it/federscherma/live/

live coverage I think

Hassan
-6th November 2010, 11:07
http://www.atleticomtv.it/federscherma/live/

live coverage I think

Probably only featuring Italian fencers

hokers
-6th November 2010, 12:41
Chrystall and Jo both out 15-14 in the L32 :(

cesh_fencing
-6th November 2010, 13:46
All over for team GB today..

Foil Tomorrow and Epee on Sunday..

AussieMongrel
-6th November 2010, 14:14
bad luck for JoJo knocked out a top 10 seed to make 32 then out to Hungarian 15-14.

Mr long sword
-6th November 2010, 14:31
The live tv is not to bad to watch..

hokers
-6th November 2010, 15:25
WS final live on Brit eurosport RIGHT NOW!

hokers
-6th November 2010, 15:32
Zagunis beats Kharlan again. MS final coming up, get to a TV people!

Mr long sword
-6th November 2010, 15:42
Who WON the men's..?

D'Artignan
-6th November 2010, 15:43
It's on just now EDIT: Won just won, if that makes sense.

Mr long sword
-6th November 2010, 15:46
12-1 down was a tall order for the no1. I'll call him Limp Back now..

hokers
-6th November 2010, 15:47
Won absolutely schools Limbach. Was 12-1 up and closes it out to 9 in the end.

Mr long sword
-6th November 2010, 15:48
It's on just now EDIT: Won just won, if that makes sense.

Thats why i put who 'Won'....yes..

D'Artignan
-6th November 2010, 15:59
Thats why i put who 'Won'....yes..
Sorry, it's too early in the day for me to function properly. Was I the only one who thought that it was gonna turn into a humiliation at one point?

Lynne
-7th November 2010, 08:31
All MF out in 64. Edd Jeffries scratched due to food poisoning. Rhys Melia lost to Ota (JPN), Jamie Kenber lost to Meinhardt (USA) and Laurence Halstead lost to Hataoel (ISR).

cesh_fencing
-7th November 2010, 09:37
WF -

Hannah out 15-4
Natalia out 15-8

Martina wins 15-10, now has Wachter the no 12 seed.

First time in many a year that a GB WF fencer gets a higher result than the top placed Mens Foilist...

Foilling Around
-7th November 2010, 10:29
A great fight by Martina, the scores looked like she had a chance at 9:8 up.

Obviously I promote WF wherever I can and yes Chris it is brilliant to have a a women's foilist to the L32, but remember that there were 90 entries to the WF and 159 entries to the MF.

I don't know why there are so few. I wonder if there is such a dominance by just a few nations that the rest simply don't bother. Or perhaps the fact there have been far fewer world cup and satellite events in WF than the other weapons over the past few years has had an effect.

On that basis L32 in the WF is the equivelent of L64 in the MF, though of course you cannot strictly compare it that way.

Put it this way, only Martina will score british ranking points because below 100 fencers in the event you have to make L32 to score points.

However the confidence of having 3 fencers make the cut and have DE fights in the worlds should stand them in good stead for the teams in a couple of days.

Keep at it ladies!!

AELLA
-7th November 2010, 11:42
Huge entry of 203 in the mens epee, almost 50 more entries than in the mens foil.

Such a large entry in the mens epee will make any result gained by the boys really impressive. Good luck on Friday.
</p>
Not sure of the logic you use here, It's the worlds so you are going to start at the top with the best, so if there are 1000 entrants, the strength of the comp is still the same, it's just the size that's bigger.

pigeonmeister
-7th November 2010, 12:35
Four previous world no.1s out before the MF L32 (Cassara, Baldini, Kleibrink and Le Pechoux).

Great result for Rhys in his first worlds. Such a shame for Ed getting food poisoning, though...

Foilling Around
-7th November 2010, 13:20
</p>
Not sure of the logic you use here, It's the worlds so you are going to start at the top with the best, so if there are 1000 entrants, the strength of the comp is still the same, it's just the size that's bigger.

I disagree. The size of the event is indicitive of the number of fencers doing the circuit. Therefore the pool to draw from for the worlds is bigger, the number of nations taking Epee seriously is bigger and therefore the top end is likely to be stronger in depth.

Foilling Around
-7th November 2010, 13:23
Incidentally can we put a motion to the next FIE meeting to introduce a handicap system for Italian fencers at Women's Foil.

I suggest that starting their oppoenents on +5 should just about do it.

Altenatively we could insist that all Italians fence the first 3 minutes of a DE with their non-dominant hand.

munkey
-7th November 2010, 14:30
Incidentally can we put a motion to the next FIE meeting to introduce a handicap system for Italian fencers at Women's Foil.

I suggest that starting their oppoenents on +5 should just about do it.

Altenatively we could insist that all Italians fence the first 3 minutes of a DE with their non-dominant hand.

Probably still not enough...

cesh_fencing
-7th November 2010, 23:22
Link to BBC report on yesterday's results..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/fencing/9164958.stm

pigeonmeister
-7th November 2010, 23:31
"Richard Kruse is our only world-class fencer and we're feeling his absence here."

Inspiring words from our performance director.

hokers
-8th November 2010, 08:49
See I was going to post that but I thought it a bit too direct to point out.

He does go on to talk about people with L8, L4 potential but I can imagine there might be some significant dissent among some of the fencers training full time about that statement.

Threestain
-8th November 2010, 09:47
btw:

Nick currently fighting in the L64 - 3v3 at first break against Garozzo

Threestain
-8th November 2010, 09:50
second break:

8 v 6

hokers
-8th November 2010, 09:56
Out 15-9.

Threestain
-8th November 2010, 09:59
unfortunately Nick lost 15-9 to Garozzo according to the website

Mr long sword
-8th November 2010, 11:41
"richard kruse is our only world-class fencer and we're feeling his absence here."

inspiring words from our performance director.


wafa

pigeonmeister
-8th November 2010, 11:57
How many world class performance directors do we have?

Good luck to all our teams.

AELLA
-8th November 2010, 11:58
&quot;Richard Kruse is our only world-class fencer and we're feeling his absence here.&quot;

Inspiring words from our performance director.


See I was going to post that but I thought it a bit too direct to point out.He does go on to talk about people with L8, L4 potential but I can imagine there might be some significant dissent among some of the fencers training full time about that statement.





&quot;Richard Kruse is our only world-class fencer and we're feeling his absence here.


Inspiring words from our performance director.



See I was going to post that but I thought it a bit too direct to point out.

He does go on to talk about people with L8, L4 potential but I can imagine there might be some significant dissent among some of the fencers training full time about that statement.

What do you all think World Class is?


Getting to the worlds / olympics / Euros?? Or winning medals at these championships??

I am with the PD on this one, I think that you have to get a L8 to be World Class - I'd also say that we have a couple more capable of it, but they need to improve on consistancy and belief



Please don't get me wrong here, I think that for 90% of the fencers that we sent to the Worlds this time, the results are:
a) Great for them
b) What is expected (and is on the way to their end goal)
c) Much better than I could ever dream of achievingd) but NOT world class

There are a few cases of illness and injury around, and some lapses in focus that always can creep around, but if you want to win an Olympic Gold, there isn't room in you life for thinking that a L64 is anything other than a good few rounds away from where you want to be.

I also feel that the well meaning remarks of excellent result at every opportunity is counter productive, I mean you can take it from your parents, as with other non informed friends, but from the PD...? His role is to focus people on the task of 2012 medals (which isn't a L64 here and there) there are less than 2 years to get these (process goals) results up and up until MF has 4 L16's with one or two going on to make medals, and WF 2 L32 -> a L8 and a L16 (once you have taken the Italians into consideration)

The other week we had a MF result at the Juniors with 3 in the L8 with a medal (well done Husayn for that) and following that up with a medal in the team too, and there has been little or no 'fuss' made over those awesome results, because to an extent the MF programme is robust enough to see those results not as an end goal, but a step towards Olympic Glory in 2012, 2016 and beyond.

Please ONLY use the phrase World Class when you actually mean it, it's very different to really good.

[/post]

wingnutLP
-8th November 2010, 12:16
wafa

???

AELLA
-8th November 2010, 12:17
I disagree. The size of the event is indicitive of the number of fencers doing the circuit. Therefore the pool to draw from for the worlds is bigger, the number of nations taking Epee seriously is bigger and therefore the top end is likely to be stronger in depth.

Well, whilst I take that on board, your argument seems to suggest that the PSFC's are the highest level competition in the country as they are the largest (by a mile) - I know that this isn't a fully logical argument, but illustrates the point that you are making I think
My point is that as it's the World Championships the best people are there, and so the 64th best is still the 64th best in the world...

I'm not sure that you can apply a subjective judgment on the 'strength' of a weapon, from the number of it's participants, especially with a 'casual view' it's akin to saying that those apples are more difficult than those bananas as there are more apples in the world

pigeonmeister
-8th November 2010, 12:21
That was a painful read.

Clearly, getting none of our experienced and senior fencers beyond a L32 (at best) is disappointing. But GW was lamenting more than us having no 'world class' results at these championship.

GW is actually saying that we only have one world class fencer who had even the potential to get to the finals in these championships.

That's clearly rubbish. If I was LH, JW, or the MF team, who have all won medals at either GPs or the Europeans, I would be seriously pissed off with that statement.

Put simply, there is medal potential for 2012 beyond Kruse or vaguely defined 'other fencers coming through'. I'm all for realism, but that was an appalling statement for a performance director to make.

TomA
-8th November 2010, 12:27
My point is that as it's the World Championships the best people are there, and so the 64th best is still the 64th best in the world...
Not all the best people - there are 5-8 ranked French and Italian fencers etc who are quite capable of making 64s and 32s at the worlds, but can't go because of the four per country limit.

cesh_fencing
-8th November 2010, 12:44
Let us just hope that the teams can give us a bit of a positive spin over the next few days; that is in the events we actually have teams entered in.

JohnL
-8th November 2010, 12:50
I generally look at quotes in news reports with a certain degree of scepticism. This is given that a quote can be used out of context, be responding to a question where if the question was quoted the response might seem reasonable, and generally my tructing the press about as far as I can spit.

However, the performances so far. A complete disaster.

Come on the teams!!

AELLA
-8th November 2010, 13:29
Not all the best people - there are 5-8 ranked French and Italian fencers etc who are quite capable of making 64s and 32s at the worlds, but can't go because of the four per country limit.

So on the point of World Class - I'll pop you down for a L64 NOT being world Class, as there are French and Italian fencers who would get L64/L32's and also aren't in the top 4 of their countries rankings...

I take you point here, but will be across all weapons so the strength through size argument is still apples and bananas - for me.

pigeonmeister
-8th November 2010, 13:41
"mate if i was you i would try to watch live some international mens foil fencing because you are seriously out of touch who are you seriously suggesting can make a medal except for kruse and possibly hasltead on the day"

Nice bit of -rep I just received (anonymously, of course).

Not sure if this nice soul is referring to these WCs or the 2012 OGs. In terms of the former, realistically Halsted and MFT. That's why I (and apparently you as well) contradicted GW, who stated only Kruse.

This doesn't hide the fact that GW should also recognise that there is a difference between LH going out in the 64 and RM, aged 20 and in his first major champs, getting a 64 by knocking out someone ranked 55 the world. Halsted wasn't getting results like that aged 20. Kruse got a L64 in his first Worlds, I think.

In terms of 2012, even GW, who I assume watches more live MF than yourself, points to a wider poule than simply RK and LH. Though clearly these(along with the team) are our best chances.

The bottom line is that GW is not helping anyone by making these kind of statements. Some context would have been nice...

The Driver
-8th November 2010, 14:46
Some context would have been nice...

Seems he may be doing that via Twitter this afternoon - would love to insert link but am not that computer savvy so here goes with an attempt to C&P:

"

Been interested to read reaction to disappointments of yesterday for GB Men's Foil. Main points from me to follow for the record -
(1) we lost 2 of our best 3 men's foilists off the piste in unfortunate circumstances;
(2) Kenber was competing in first maj comp for a year
(3) Melia is a young fencer at 1st worlds; Melia & Kenber lost to medallists;
(4) we expected Halsted to win but he lost to v good fencer who went on to reach the L8

- more follows -

I had to interrupt my earlier comments on the reaction to MF performance - my final point was to say that we must learn to manage our expectations better. Our UK Sport target was 2xL8 - basically to include RK in ind and MF team - without Kruse it is unfair to expect other fencers to simply step into his world ranking.

It is not reasonable to expect fencers ranked in the 20s and 40s of world rankings to win medals!

"

TomA
-8th November 2010, 14:58
On a separate note, Grumier vs Lucenay (both FRA) in the men's epee semis is going to be one hell of a fight to watch.

Lynne
-8th November 2010, 16:32
"

This doesn't hide the fact that GW should also recognise that there is a difference between LH going out in the 64 and RM, aged 20 and in his first major champs, getting a 64 by knocking out someone ranked 55 the world. Halsted wasn't getting results like that aged 20. Kruse got a L64 in his first Worlds, I think.


The bottom line is that GW is not helping anyone by making these kind of statements. Some context would have been nice...

Smilies won't work for me - aargh! Insert large smiley here agreeing wholeheartedly with Pige :-)

WellEducatedFacts.
-8th November 2010, 17:19
Graham Watts's statement on Twitter may have been seen as harsh by many - duly too. But I think it was a rash post by him, he is in a very high pressure position so close to 2012. He may not have considered the political ripples it has made and it looks like in later comments he tried to recover himself. However, this doesn't take away from the fact that he felt it.

I for one think he is wrong.

There is tremendous depth in our squad. (I could list a long string of results from Richard Kruse down to Alex Tofalides, an age gap of 10 years with strong competitors all the way through).

Richard Kruse wasn't at the event, due to an injury. This is sad, however we should never put all our eggs into one basket. I certainly disagree with backing a TEAM for a medal when you believe you only have ONE world class fencer - doesn't make sense.
Jamie Kenber went to the event after a long time away on injury, so at his first event back made the L64 (note that it is the strongest stage below the Olympics). Results such as Cassara's (anyone who deny's he is World Class doesn't deserve to write on the forum) show that most people in the Top 64 are world class or close to world class. So Jamie Kenber obviously has the ability/potential ability but just needs to refine things and employ tactics properly in order to win on the day.
Ed Jefferies, improved on last years result (this hasn't even been mentioned yet but our Performance Director) and was unable due to illness to show if he could further it.
Rhys Melia, at 20 year's old made the L64 at his first World Championships. Ed Jefferies, Laurence Halsted didn't make this result at their first World Championships (Jamie Kenber did, however didn't even qualify at age 20 so was at an advantage. This does show though that we have good strength and depth, if he can get a result at his first championships too.)

So, what we have is 4 L64's. 3 people of which weren't EXPECTED to get further but would have liked to. And one person who's ranking suggested he SHOULD have gone further. He lost however, by 1 hit in priority. To a strong opponent with a similar ranking/results.
And for this we say he is no longer world class? Ludicrous statement. He has proved himself on the European stage with medals, and on the World stage with a medal at a GP this season and countless high results at World cups and GP's. He just did not do it on the day.

When Richard Kruse came 3rd at the Europeans, he was praised and solidified in Graham Watts's eyes as World class. I wonder if he took into consideration that every fight Richard won and lost that day, went down to the last hit?
What if he had lost the first one? Would Graham think he is no longer world class? I think not. I think he is just being overly harsh. The team is just as strong as it was before it went to Paris, though nobody out performed their potential.

It is hard to consistently make "world class results". Richard Kruse for example at the Europeans did it right and WON those last hit fights, Laurence didn't at the World's.
But what about when Richard has ended up 33rd/17th at GP's? Is he no longer World Class? NO, he is a World Class fencer who had a bad day.

If you look at the Italian team in Paris, (who are undeniably better than the British Individuals AND team) they got two L64's, one L32 and a 16. Their 16 came from their weakest fencer who did ok. Their weaker results were from, Aspromonte, Cassara and Baldini. Do you think Graham Watts would claim that they are no longer World Class? I don't.

Laurence is still a world class fencer as he has shown many times. Ed Jefferies and Rhys Melia still have bags of potential and lots of time in which to show it and Jamie Kenber just needs to get back to competition fitness to start getting the results he is capable of. It is one competition.

Rob.Leicester
-8th November 2010, 20:33
Excellent post.

TomA
-8th November 2010, 21:51
Novosjolov (EST) beats Grumier (FRA) to become world champion. Not bad for the world number 23.

thedoc
-8th November 2010, 22:12
You will soon learn that at ME seeding and rankings really don't mean that much. Avdeev was ranked somewhere is 50s when he won.

For instance, a canadian guy had a bye to L64 through world ranking and lost 15-2 in his first fight. It is a tough old world at that level.

Barry Paul
-9th November 2010, 07:40
I think we need to give GW a little bit of a break, he has engineered with proper funding and great coaches a group of foil fencers with great depth and over the last years some great results. The problem is partly the perception of the funders who no-doubt view the term world class as ongoing world Champions and almost certain gold medal winners. Very few fencers in the world over the last 10 years can be said to fit this definition.

cesh_fencing
-9th November 2010, 08:01
he has engineered with proper funding and great coaches a group of foil fencers with great depth and over the last years some great results.

Possibly there has been all the eggs in one basket issue here (and foil fencers should read Mens foil fencers I think to make the basket even smaller).

Anway to the positives GBR girls win their L32 fight in the Sabre. Russia, the number 1 seeds next. After a warm-up match at least our girls should be switched on..

No mens team unfortunately for GBR.

Mr long sword
-9th November 2010, 08:46
Very close between our gals n russia..!!!!!

Mr long sword
-9th November 2010, 08:57
Looks like the girls put in a 'world class performance' against the No1 seeds..

marg
-9th November 2010, 09:17
Looks like the girls put in a 'world class performance' against the No1 seeds..

Yes, i'd say so. Seeded 17 , won first match against Venezuela in 32. Lost 36:45 to number one seeds Russia. Chrys picked up 14 hits on Kormilitsyna!
In the individual Chrys won all her poule fights and easily got into 32 where she lost by only one hit. Jo had to beat Perrus, the French number one in front of a home crowd, to get into last 32 where she also lost by one hit.

Mr long sword
-9th November 2010, 09:20
World class not out classed...

AELLA
-9th November 2010, 09:24
I think we need to give GW a little bit of a break, he has engineered with proper funding and great coaches a group of foil fencers with great depth and over the last years some great results. The problem is partly the perception of the funders who no-doubt view the term world class as ongoing world Champions and almost certain gold medal winners. Very few fencers in the world over the last 10 years can be said to fit this definition.

I think to an extent there was 'some foil' prior to the funding comming in, but that the funding has kept the top guys in the sport when perhaps they may have chucked it in earlier... But that aside, I think that the programme and the centre of mass has given foil a great legacy for years to come.

I am STILL struggling with the term 'World Class' and how the 'forums' view is obviously very different to that of the funders, who are finals and medals driven...

I know that fencing is difficult to compare to another of other sports, when you are essentially against the clock or a tape measure, where you can make sure that you prepare yourself, and there isn't an issue with some random guy who's had a difficult morning and lost a fight here and there in the poule, and then switched on for the DE's, which does add a different dimention to the sport, and a more tricky route to consistantcy...
But the funders look for what's best for the money, and in 2012, they want Home Games medals, and so the money goes where the sucess is, cycling, athletics has some very patchy funding, rowing, boxing (I think the most comparable with fencing with it's adverserial nature) etc, etc... They have also picked some, up and comming sports, and mass partisipation sports to fund, and they view is the Table Tennis, for example, is cheap and easy to get into a huge number of facilities, and thus some good funding has gone there way, although as in 2008, their qualification hopes as just that, hopes to qualify (not just take the home nation places), we also benefitted from other sports failings when RK and LH both gave good results, and we got more money, I hope that this extra funding doesn't go the way it came with the unfortunate loss of RK at such a vital point in the season from a personal and a funding point of view

I know that our top fencers seem fragile, with the number that are out for a season, or vital parts of the year, can anything be done to improve on this aspect (I know RK has a broken foot, so it's unlikely anything could have been done to prevent that, unless it was a stress break through over training, and then a look at what caused it in his style could be looked at)

Bio-mechanics lab anyone?

hokers
-9th November 2010, 10:12
Looks like the girls put in a 'world class performance' against the No1 seeds..

Perhaps you could explain what you mean by this? The quotes imply you are being sarcastic and hence critical of this result, but perhaps I misunderstand?

Mr long sword
-9th November 2010, 10:22
Hokers don't be silly.....I took the morning off work to watch the little numbers change on my computer...All 3 girls are WC fencers...

hokers
-9th November 2010, 10:34
Ah OK, glad we clarified that.
The girls have Korea at 1pm in the 9-16. Live updates not working for me on fencingworldwide, only on the official site.

TomA
-9th November 2010, 10:40
You will soon learn that at ME seeding and rankings really don't mean that much.No need to be patronising, I know that rankings are a rough guide at best, but it's still impressive to come from being 23rd in the world to winning the world championships. If it had happened in tennis it would be have been amazing.

Plus I was looking forward to Bozcko pulling a Kulcsar against a Frenchman in the final :p

Threestain
-9th November 2010, 11:07
it's actually a surprising result really as noso has been up there (world 23 etc) Grumier has tended to be far and away the top performer over the past year.

But hey, he's young and has a few years left...

hokers
-9th November 2010, 11:17
USA WS knock out China 45-42. That would have made a good final I think!

GBR vs Korea underway now, 10-7 down after 2 bouts.

hokers
-9th November 2010, 11:37
Lost 45-33 in the end.

thedoc
-9th November 2010, 12:22
Wasn't being partronising, but really everyone at that level is so good pretty much anyone in the L64 could win if they were having a good day. If they were playing best of 5 sets like in tennis, then yes, it would be much more surprising.

As for our perennial world-class debate, I would frame it like this: You make the L8 in a major champs. Are you really pleased or disappointed? I reckon a world class competitor would be disappointed.

Though I am no fan of GW in general, watching the video, his statement doesn't come across as outrageous as it might read on paper.

You can still be very very good at something without being world class.

hokers
-9th November 2010, 12:35
WS beat KAZ 45-41. Will face Japan or Spain to decide 13th or 14th.

hokers
-9th November 2010, 13:06
Wow. Russia beat USA 45-32!

RUS vs UKR Final, France vs USA semi.

Mr long sword
-9th November 2010, 13:46
13th..

hokers
-9th November 2010, 13:57
MS final is ITA vs RUS
BLR vs ROU for Bronze.

Canada just had a right go at France in the 9-12 match, were leading before losing it at the end. POL put USA out, so USA vs CAN next I think.

aao
-9th November 2010, 14:52
Though I am no fan of GW in general, watching the video, his statement doesn't come across as outrageous as it might read on paper.

It does depending on the context, in the overall context of how much time and money has been put into the sport under GW's direction over the past 6 years, some would say that it is suprising to find that the PD of that sport who was responsible for how that money was spent, saying that effectively we have only managed to create one world class fencer during this time (especially if considered in the context that that fencer was already able to qualify for the Olympics on his own prior to the investment) and that by that reckoning the performance plan could be considered by some to have so far been relatively unsuccessful.

On the other hand, as many people have pointed out, it the same statement taken in a different context (and the one I hope and believe GW meant) can also mean that we have some very very good fencers in the UK, but only one has consitently managed to stay at the very top level long enough to be considered to be world class.

The trouble is with us getting so close to the Olympics, people in positions of authority have to make sure they carefully consider what they are saying before they say it. This statement by GW is too open to interpretation, especially by those who have very little direct knowledge of the sport, and could if interpreted one way be very damaging to the sport, especially after what has been a largely disappointing worlds so far.

hokers
-9th November 2010, 18:56
Gold for RUS in both MS and WS.

James Chambers commentary drives me insane. Just doesn't understand sabre as far as I can tell.

Foilling Around
-9th November 2010, 19:28
Over the years I have become a reluctant convert to the pathway. Perhaps not all of the details and the decisions made, but of the concept. We were given no choice by the fund holders. The money seems massive to us as a minor sport, but in terms of producing medal winners from a very low base it was the only was to go. And in general it has hit a lot of its intermediate targets.

Remember that the GW interview was edited and that can massively change the tenor of an interview. I would only fully comment if I saw the entire uncut interview.

Of course he sounded disappointed, if he had sounded happy and upbeat we would have said he was living in cloud cuckoo land.

Foilling Around
-9th November 2010, 19:30
Gold for RUS in both MS and WS.

James Chambers commentary drives me insane. Just doesn't understand sabre as far as I can tell.

or foil, believe me!

Cloudy
-9th November 2010, 19:46
Gold for RUS in both MS and WS.

James Chambers commentary drives me insane. Just doesn't understand sabre as far as I can tell.

Is he the older sounding voice or the younger sounding voice, because the older sounding voice seems to hate anything to do with right of way. It's a bit odd when you've got a commentator complaining about something that fundemental.

D'Artignan
-9th November 2010, 20:05
Is he the older sounding voice or the younger sounding voice, because the older sounding voice seems to hate anything to do with right of way. It's a bit odd when you've got a commentator complaining about something that fundemental.
He's the old one, who it always seems to me, actually knows less about the fencing than the Eurosport random event commentator does, for some reason.

Ronald Velden
-9th November 2010, 20:19
Foiling Around

I concur with what you have written.

A lot has been written criticising Graham Watts statement which was clearly
made as a consequence of huge disappointment.

I have been always supercritical of the 'one trick pony' attitude adopted in equal measure by Government,UK Sport and the Performance Director. Bluntly it has all been short termism directed at London 2012.

Mens Foil has been converted at senior and junior levels into a 'professional'
sport with very high expectation.

They have benefited from a full-time world class coach [Ziemek] and a high class young trainer [Maciej] backed by other specialists and of course a full-time training programme operating 5 days a week.

Overall the results have been good with both Richard Kruse and Laurence Halsted winning European Silver Medals in last four years and the Team winning a Bronze. Richard has also achieved a top 4 ranking this season and
Laurence broke into top 20 of World Rankings as well.

Behind these fencers we have also produced two medals at World and European Junior Championships in last three seasons from Fitzgerald and
Rosowsky.

However, what has not been delivered to fencing in contrast to most other
sports is capital investment in facilities. I mention this because LOCOG reversed their original decision to build a dedicated fencing centre which
would have been a platform for up grading sport just like the Velodrome in
Manchester or Rowing Centre in Nottingham, which kick started the revolution in both those sports.

More importantly I would have expected some of the money received by the sport over last six years to have been invested in recruiting some 'world
class coaches' so that the other weapons could at least start the process
of upgrading their performance levels in the same way as foil has achieved.

The sad fact is that post 2012 I fear that sports who do not achieve success
[medals] will have their funding withdrawn and consigned to the backwaters
from whence they came. That would be a great shame.

aao
-9th November 2010, 20:23
Over the years I have become a reluctant convert to the pathway. Perhaps not all of the details and the decisions made, but of the concept. We were given no choice by the fund holders. .

Yes and no for me, I think the pathway (or whatever it is now called) has been very successful in mens foil, I also think the concept was broadly good. But I don't feel it has been particularily successfully applied in the other weapons and opportunities to remedy this have not always been taken.
While the funding bodies have indeed dictated many of the poilicies, I personally feel that in epee the funding could have been better used, even within the tight framework given. But this is just a personal view based on my view of performances over the past few years, I certainly know some of the top epeeists don't agree me.

My point was not actually to debate whether it has worked or not, it is too late to make any changes anyway, and the Olympics will prove its success or not, its just that whatever happens, those who are responsible for the program should be very careful about what they say to the press about the performances.

Pere fleuret
-9th November 2010, 21:23
'Mens Foil has been converted at senior and junior levels into a 'professional'
sport with very high expectation.

BBC news report: 'Jefferies had been due to fight France's Erwan Le Pechoux but pulled out, claiming a burger eaten the night before had given him food poisoning. '

Can I ask why a top athlete would be eating a burger the night before a world championship match? Don't the team have nutrition advice?

Peter Pan
-9th November 2010, 21:34
Can I ask why a top athlete would be eating a burger the night before a world championship match? Don't the team have nutrition advice?

Come on, that's a bit pathetic

Hassan
-9th November 2010, 22:04
Behind these fencers we have also produced two medals at World and European Junior Championships in last three seasons from Fitzgerald and Rosowsky.



I think you'll find both these medals were won by Rosowsky. Fitzgerald, however, did win one of the toughest junior A Grades, Aix en Provence, last year.

wide eagle
-9th November 2010, 22:04
can I ask why a top athlete would be eating a burger the night before a world championship match? Don't the team have nutrition advice?

Usain Bolt eat chicken nuggets before his record beating Olympic run ;) I do find it how the commentators were complaining about the music that had been picked, what’s wrong with a bit of

Ronald Velden
-9th November 2010, 22:27
Hassan

Sorry I meant Jeffries who won silver at World Junior Champs in 2009.

Foilling Around
-9th November 2010, 22:33
I think you'll find both these medals were won by Rosowsky. Fitzgerald, however, did win one of the toughest junior A Grades, Aix en Provence, last year.

And of course Ed Jefferies in Belfast.

The pity is that the powers that be do not understand that in combat sports it takes time to gain the experience to become top end world class. (except for the occasioal wunderkind).

Promising juniors we certainly have, but I personally think for Rio rather than London.

Though I have been proved wrong once and a I hope I am done so again.

cesh_fencing
-10th November 2010, 00:29
Originally Posted by Pere fleuret
can I ask why a top athlete would be eating a burger the night before a world championship match? Don't the team have nutrition advice?


Come on, that's a bit pathetic

The fact that it was reported that he had been eating a burger the night before the event is a bit of a PR mistake, the fact he got sick due to it is a real shame for him personally.

One of the things I thought the new pathway scheme etc were meant to do was educate the fencers into giving an image of doing the right thing in public, even though behind closed doors they probably do not following the 'ideal' to the letter..

The fact that it is now public knowledge that an elite athlete, on central funding was eating a burger (which is certainly not ideal preperation in most text books) the night before what is probably the most important match of his season, and because of that burger got sick, is not good for the image of 'pathway', or those who meant to be ensuring these fencers were at their peak for the next day.

Lets just hope all the foilists, boys and girls, stay off the Burgers and have a good day tomorrow...

Hassan
-10th November 2010, 09:01
Hassan

Sorry I meant Jeffries who won silver at World Junior Champs in 2009.

You could argue that this result was actually more a success of the Pathway than the achievements of RK and LH, given their respective starting points.

Threestain
-10th November 2010, 09:22
Hang on - why is eating a burger the night before a problem?

If it's the normal routine for that person, surely it's better to do that than 'carbo-load' with pasta. A burger is often (especially in france) steak mince, and therefore good quality food. Unfortunately this one caused food poisoning.

Just because it's a burger means nothing. The food the night before means virtually nothing, unless it makes you ill - far less likely with a burger than most other things, so just darn bad luck.

JackSparrow
-10th November 2010, 10:33
I agree.

aao
-10th November 2010, 10:52
Personally i think its a crime against nature to have a hamburger while in Paris, but then again most of the things I would eat while there are definately not condusive to fencing (or even moving) the next day.

Its not a big thing, it would have been better if all that had been said was that he was sufferring from food poisioning, simply because generally people do not in their minds associate top level sport with burgers and therefor isn't something which is helpful to the image of the sport.

cesh_fencing
-10th November 2010, 11:18
Hang on - why is eating a burger the night before a problem?

If it's the normal routine for that person,

I agree with aao

With all the nutritional advice that the athletes are given (or should be on the programme), should eating burgers be the normal routine the night before doing their sport (or in their day to day life, as I cannot see any of our mens foilists being people who spend hours in the kitchen making their own ‘healthy’ burgers), if they are trying to be 'World Class' as such. I doubt many nutritionists would have burgers at the top of their set of food classes for the night before an event.

I know I eat all sorts of things I should not prior to events, but especially with the money being thrown it their direction they should be seen to live to the ‘ideal’ in terms of nutritional sustenance.

My main point however, is that it did not have to be made known that a dodgy burger was the reason. That slip is the embarrassing thing, as if simple ‘food poisoning’ had been given as the problem, no-one would be having this discussion.

With funding at the level it is now for some of these fencers, simple slips can seriously effect the impression of how professional the sport is and I am simply surprised that such a PR gaff was made with things not having gone very well to that point at the event,.

hokers
-10th November 2010, 11:21
Yet if it had been described as a steak baguette or a beef sandwich that would have been OK.

"All is marketing and garnish" - Ben Elton

Fox66
-10th November 2010, 11:30
Burgers and beef sarnies aside, we have just beaten Canada 45 -40 in WF Team!

Foilling Around
-10th November 2010, 11:39
Back to the fencing!

Good way to spend a non-contact lesson watch the WF scores.

Well done ladies, beat Canada, ranked 14 in the world, whilst we are ranked 13, to make it to the 9 - 12 play offs. And now for Hungary, followed by Japan or China

With Singapour, ranked 12 in the world, going down to the 13 - 16 play offs I think that means that the WF team ranking will at least go up to 12th.

Remember that Singapour and Canada have a massive advantage in World points term because the continental championships count for points and it is much more difficult to score good points in Asia or the Americas than it is in Europe.

And that, I believe, is the minimum ranking the powers that be will accept for a home teram wild card to the Olympics. It also means that the GBR WF team have out performed their seeding at evenry team event bar one in 2010.

Keep it going girls

And now for 2 hours of Year 10 Psychology!!

randomsabreur
-10th November 2010, 11:41
I have a lot of sympathy about food poisoning - decided against what I really fancied on the grounds that I should have something that would be unlikely to give me food poisoning (goats cheese canneloni). Got food poisoning - should have had the wretched shellfish dish I fancied rather than the "safe" option. Now if forced to eat out at an Italian restaurant, I have pizza or risotto (but would rather choose any other nationality...)

It is entertaining fencing a competition with a bucket at the side of the piste and having eaten nothing...

I personally wouldn't have a burger in France, unless sourced from a fast food joint, they are generally provided seriously undercooked!

Hopefully the GB team is sensible enough to allow fencers to eat at whatever time is appropriate for them, rather than requiring all to attend a "team meal" after the previous evening's finals (i.e. 10pm!)

Lefty Foilist
-10th November 2010, 11:52
At least EJ wasn't getting completely drunk in Paris the night before the DEs; though in my experience that isn't necessarily always detrimental to your performance!

p.s. I am not recommending that our pathway fencers get wasted the night before the Worlds or other international comps! Well, unless they want to experiment...

Mr long sword
-10th November 2010, 13:44
At least EJ wasn't getting completely drunk in Paris the night before the DEs; though in my experience that isn't necessarily always detrimental to your performance!

p.s. I am not recommending that our pathway fencers get wasted the night before the Worlds or other international comps! Well, unless they want to experiment...

Oh you've shattered the illusion now..I thought all international playboy fencers got at least tipsy the night before.

FEMTO
-10th November 2010, 15:03
'Mens Foil has been converted at senior and junior levels into a 'professional'
sport with very high expectation.

BBC news report: 'Jefferies had been due to fight France's Erwan Le Pechoux but pulled out, claiming a burger eaten the night before had given him food poisoning. '

Can I ask why a top athlete would be eating a burger the night before a world championship match? Don't the team have nutrition advice?

When I first heard about the news, I only read of food poisoning, no mention of what the exact food was. I joked about it with my girlfriend and said I bet it was a burger. And now I read here that it turns out to be a burger...so funny, yet so sad and so typically English it has to be said. I am pretty sure that burger was accompanied with chips too. Talk about carb-overload and beyond.

Threestain
-10th November 2010, 16:04
but my point is, is that a burger in France could be anything from a dodgy kebab van/mcdonalds to a steak tartare in a michelin restaurant. added to the fact that night before match food is far far more psychological than physiological...

aao
-10th November 2010, 16:19
I really don't actually think it makes a blind bit of difference what he ate, its just that it would have been better from a PR point of view if all that had been said is 'food poisioning' rather than being specific. The only real reason for that is that in the UK if you say the word Burger to people, most people get a vision of a greasy burger next to chips which is not what people associate with top level athletes and unfortunately some of those people who have this view are likely to work for funding bodies or potential sponsors.

pinkelephant
-10th November 2010, 16:36
Has anybody proved it was the burger? Have tests been done on it? Has Ed given any samples for testing? The burger could be completely innocent, and unable to defend itself against the libels being published in this forum.

Gav
-10th November 2010, 16:41
but my point is, is that a burger in France could be anything from a dodgy kebab van/mcdonalds to a steak tartare in a michelin restaurant. added to the fact that night before match food is far far more psychological than physiological...

Unless you eat one of those one pound of beef (cooked weight) burgers.

Not that I've ever done that you understand.

munkey
-10th November 2010, 18:42
As a minor distraction from Ed's dietary habits, the GB WF team finish 12th, including a good win against Canada and an agonisingly narrow defeat to Hungary. I'll let you get back to Burgergate now.

Munkey

TRB
-10th November 2010, 19:31
And now I read here that it turns out to be a burger...so funny, yet so sad and so typically English it has to be said. I am pretty sure that burger was accompanied with chips too. Talk about carb-overload and beyond.

For the record Jeffries is not english, it's that good scot's blood in him that couldn't say no to a burger. And while we're on that, a burger is not always a bad thing. As it has been pointed out a burger in Paris is more than like of a high standard, not along the lines of a McDonalds.

horus
-10th November 2010, 19:58
I dislike McD's as much as anyone, for several reasons, but Michelin star or not, a "high quality" burger served rare or raw is far more likely to be carrying a nasty E.Coli or similar than the standardised, thoroughly cooked McPap.

Any butchered meat can carry nasties on the outside - either indirectly from the animal's colon, or via the poorly-washed hands of a chef's assistant . Rare steak is usually OK cos the outside gets sterilised even if rare on the inside as this is sealed. But chop it all up and then serve rare or raw - might taste nice, but any bugs from the outside of the meat are now on the inside, gently warmed to optimum germ-breeding temperature ready to continue their population growth in your digestive tract.

Never mind the relative food values, any travelling athlete should be armed with basic knowledge of food hygiene. If you have a big day ahead - don't eat raw or rare chopped meat, or raw oysters, or salads too in many restaurants......

TomA
-10th November 2010, 20:38
As it has been pointed out a burger in Paris is more than like of a high standard, not along the lines of a McDonalds.Speaking as someone who has lived there, don't you believe it! I suspect however that Ed probably didn't go to one of the dodgy burger vans that you get on street corners.


But chop it all up and then serve rare or raw - might taste nice, but any bugs from the outside of the meat are now on the inside, gently warmed to optimum germ-breeding temperature ready to continue their population growth in your digestive tract.I've eaten it rare for most of my life, never had food poisoning. So long as the meat has been properly reared, checked and slaughtered and then prepared with appropriate attention to hygiene, there is no risk. I suspect the latter may have had a part to play (if it was the burger) as beef in France is usually of good quality.

At the end of the day there's no use in casting aspersions when we don't have the full story.

Lefty Foilist
-10th November 2010, 21:05
Graham Watts tweeted that the MF team is starting at 8am against Iran tomorrow. Good luck fellas!

Insipiens
-10th November 2010, 21:10
For the record Jeffries is not english, it's that good scot's blood in him that couldn't say no to a burger. And while we're on that, a burger is not always a bad thing. As it has been pointed out a burger in Paris is more than like of a high standard, not along the lines of a McDonalds.

unless of course it is a "Royale with Cheese"

Saxon
-10th November 2010, 22:09
...and mayonnaise on the french fries...

horus
-10th November 2010, 22:18
Speaking as someone who has lived there, don't you believe it! I suspect however that Ed probably didn't go to one of the dodgy burger vans that you get on street corners.

I've eaten it rare for most of my life, never had food poisoning. So long as the meat has been properly reared, checked and slaughtered and then prepared with appropriate attention to hygiene, there is no risk. I suspect the latter may have had a part to play (if it was the burger) as beef in France is usually of good quality.

At the end of the day there's no use in casting aspersions when we don't have the full story.

Sorry, but you are quite wrong and misguided. The fact that you have eaten raw meat and not been ill proves only that the risk may be low - and you don't make it clear if you are talking about steak (v. very low risk when rare) or burger/steak hache (potential hazard when rare).

Slaughtering is not a sterile process, and unless you have seen the meat from source, how can you be sure of what you are eating?. Most E.Coli will pass through you OK and you will have ingested many millions and got away with it. Eat a few E Coli 157 however and you will know about it....I'm sure most of the people who have died from it had also eaten many similar meals before and been OK....

PS I'm not casting any aspersions, just trying to correct a few misconceptions about food safety, health and relative risks....

horus
-10th November 2010, 22:20
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli_O157:H7

randomsabreur
-10th November 2010, 22:27
Sounds like Horus has done some work experience in an abbatoir then. Similar stories to vets - my fiance has steak more or less mooing and burgers well cooked. I prefer my steak to have visited a candle or two, but agree on the burgers. Generally in France you have to explain that you want your burger "Tres bien cuit a l'anglaise" and still send it back about 3 times before they get it right, unless you are getting it from a fast food establishment, in which case it usually comes adequately cooked.

TomA
-10th November 2010, 23:42
Sorry, but you are quite wrong and misguided. The fact that you have eaten raw meat and not been ill proves only that the risk may be low - and you don't make it clear if you are talking about steak (v. very low risk when rare) or burger/steak hache (potential hazard when rare).
I'm talking about both. I would argue neither is much more dangerous than eating a raw vegetable, cheese or sushi/sashimi (all of which are an accepted part of our food culture). If E.Coli gets onto any raw foodstuffs, that is pretty much that. You may argue that the risk is higher with meat and to some extent I agree, in the cases of pork and chicken especially. However beef, in France at least, is subject to quite stringent measures (much to farmers' disgust in some cases). The risk of contamination from the animal itself is extremely limited (as opposed to the risk associated with chickens and pigs, which have fairly suspect diets and rearing by comparison).

Incidentally, France has two thirds fewer incidents of food poisoning per capita each year than the UK. It raises some questions about how we prepare and eat food over here when a nation that eats un-cured/smoked raw sausages and bacon as well as minced beef is beating us on food safety.

horus
-11th November 2010, 07:55
You are confusing several issues:

I would agree that the French are better at food hygiene than the British in general - but your response shows how limited knowledge of the subject in this country leads to the mis-consceptions prevalent in the UK as you demonstrate in your post.

All raw meat carries risks. There are general principles applying to food prep in general, and there are specific concerns for some meats.

For fish, like tuna or salmon, the risk of bugs present when it is prepared being pathogenic when ingested is very low. You could get worms, but that's different. You are unlikely to get a food poisoning bug from tuna.

Oysters - they are filter feeders, and do sometimes pick up sewage that can have viral or bacterial pathogens. I take that risk sometimes - and have paid the price a couple of times...

Chicken - the main risk nowadays is Salmonella (or Campylobacter). That organism can be found in the body cavity of the majority of chicken carcasses wherever you get your chicken. Allow the inside to contaminate your work surface and then fail to cook properly - D&V could ensue.

Pork - traditionally never eaten rare due to risk of worm eggs in the meat. Nowadays unlikely - but I agree that pigs are not always fussy, and basic principles of food prep apply.

Beef - the French were very worried about BSE/nvCJD, hence their regs. A shame the UK were so lax on abattoir control years ago, but that's another story. My main point is that beef cattle are prone to carry E.Coli 157.
We all carry E. Coli (which is why hand washing after the loo is good), but not this particular nasty. The cattle are carriers - they are asymptomatic - and no matter how careful the slaughterman is, it is still possible that the surface of the carcass is contaminated. "Ordinary" E. Coli gets into your burger which is warmed in the centre - maybe just a bit of nausea and possibly the runs if anything. Get E.Coli 157 in there and you may not live to regret it. 157 on the surface of a steak, pass it over a flame and eat it quivering - no problem.

O.K. - granted, some of these risks are very small, and we all take risks every day. I'm not into the H&S culture, and sure, I will take some of these risks myself re food at times. The point is that people should be able to do what they like and take whatever risks they like with themselves, but I believe that they should be able to appraise those risks based on the best information possible - not just because they or someone else gets away with the risk. You eat what you like, I don't mind. I personally wouldn't eat a partly cooked burger or rare chicken out of choice for the above reasons, but you can if you like. Just, please, don't spout half-truths about the risks just because you have been lucky enough to avoid food poisoning.

JackSparrow
-11th November 2010, 08:48
Men's Foil team are 35 -27 up against USA. 2 more matches to go.

kingkenny
-11th November 2010, 09:01
42 -35 Come on!

JackSparrow
-11th November 2010, 09:06
Nice one!

kingkenny
-11th November 2010, 09:08
Ok can we now talk about hotdogs instead of fencing please. I like hotdogs more than burgers but I also like chicken wings. Bolt the fastest man in the world likes chicken wings. Is he world class?

JackSparrow
-11th November 2010, 09:15
The members of the USA team are ranked: 5th, 11th and 21st in the FIE World rankings. I have to say that I didn't think we would beat them without Kruse in the team. Well done! Awesome result. China next I think?

Lefty Foilist
-11th November 2010, 09:15
45-36 to GB vs USA. China up next. Come on lads!

wingnutLP
-11th November 2010, 09:20
Ok can we now talk about hotdogs instead of fencing please. I like hotdogs more than burgers but I also like chicken wings. Bolt the fastest man in the world likes chicken wings. Is he world class?

I think Ben's point here is that cuisine is not the topic of this thread if you want to talk about food please start a new thread in the chit chat section. Any further posts on food will be deleted.

Gav
-11th November 2010, 09:51
What time is the next bout on at?

JackSparrow
-11th November 2010, 09:59
What time is the next bout on at?

It's on now.

Gav
-11th November 2010, 10:03
Where are you watching it?

I've got Rus v Fra on this link.

http://www.dailymotion.com/hub/xf6_escrime-2010-video#videoId=xfkatq

wingnutLP
-11th November 2010, 10:04
10- 1 :(

JackSparrow
-11th November 2010, 10:10
Can't find a live stream. Though you can see them in the background in your link. Just following the scores on fencingworldwide.com

kingkenny
-11th November 2010, 10:12
http://www.fencingworldwide.com/WAFechten/fechten/fightframeset.jsp?turniernr=2984&saison=9&piste=34&reload=2

Gav
-11th November 2010, 10:21
What's going on over there? I see GBR is getting destroyed by the chinese.

cesh_fencing
-11th November 2010, 10:40
What's going on over there? I see GBR is getting destroyed by the chinese.

40-18 down going into the last bout.

I guess that we are looking at no2 seed against no 10, which in teams is a wide gap.

Laurence gets first 3 hits of final bout, but a bit to late I think.

Gav
-11th November 2010, 10:43
They definitely dug themselves a hole.

I find that with teams there's more scope to mess up the seedings as you can come up with a game plan to frustrate the strengths of the other team.

I guess today was just not supposed to be.

cesh_fencing
-11th November 2010, 10:47
Last match 11-5 to LH so at least he had a good go... Match score 45-29..


I guess today was just not supposed to be.

Considering the team available (with RK out) a last 8 is a surprisingly good result.

To beat the USA was a acheivement and to get destroyed by China is something I suspect many good teams have endured...

pinkelephant
-11th November 2010, 10:48
what time is the next bout on at?

dinner time!

hokers
-11th November 2010, 10:48
I find that with teams there's more scope to mess up the seedings as you can come up with a game plan to frustrate the strengths of the other team.


These things are relative though. China has 5 in the top 51, including 3 of the top 10. We have one in the top 50, who took 11 off one of those top 10 fencers, but still it's a pretty serious stretch to see GBR winning that just from the odds. Would have been closer with RK, but you still wouldn't put the mortgage on it.

rpryer
-11th November 2010, 10:51
China has 5 in the top 51, including 3 of the top 10.

And the 3 in the top 10 were the team today.

Gav
-11th November 2010, 10:51
Last match 11-5 to LH so at least he had a good go... Match score 45-29..



Considering the team available (with RK out) a last 8 is a surprisingly good result.

To beat the USA was a acheivement and to get destroyed by China is something I suspect many good teams have endured...

No, don't get me wrong. They did well.

Even saying that, a complete caning is a bit of a surprise. Clearly they're game was on - judging by the previous rounds. Even if they were likely to get beaten I would've thought they might grind it out.

Chinese were just too hard on the day. As I said earlier - it was just not to be.

L8 is pretty good - is this going to up their world rank at all? Anyone know?

tigger
-11th November 2010, 10:53
In my opinion to make L8 without Kruse is a decent result - hopefully they will finish higher than 8th.

Insipiens
-11th November 2010, 10:59
might be tough in the fight-off for 8 - 5 as Germany are losing to Japan and Korea vs Italy is currently 35 - 37. (was 35-35 a minute ago but cassara just got two hits)

cesh_fencing
-11th November 2010, 11:03
might be tough in the fight-off for 8 - 5 as Germany are losing to Japan and Korea vs Italy is currently 35 - 37. (was 35-35 a minute ago but cassara just got two hits)

Italy were 35-29 down to Korea, but Cassara does a 11 hit winning bout to put Italy 5 hits up going into final bout...

Insipiens
-11th November 2010, 11:13
well Italy made it through thanks to Cassara winning the penultimate leg 11-0.
But the 8 - 5 are going to be GB. France. Korea and Germany.
Any of those could push GB even with RK, good luck for the next stage.

JackSparrow
-11th November 2010, 11:21
Which means we should be able to watch the GBR vs France match live on Gav's link.

http://www.dailymotion.com/hub/xf6_e...videoId=xfkatq

Will be very interesting to see how ed jeff gets on against le pechoux, who would have been his opponent in the 64.

hokers
-11th November 2010, 11:28
You can't link like that, have to have the whole thing:

http://www.dailymotion.com/hub/xf6_escrime-2010-video#videoId=xfkatq

hokers
-11th November 2010, 11:50
Stream is pretty good actually, just watching Ed vs Le Pechoux. GBR lead 13-10.

Now 15-14 FRA, Ed was 4-9 vs Le Pechoux for the record.

pigeonmeister
-11th November 2010, 11:53
I'm watching the GBR-France match live on the link above. 15-14 to France, after a late surge by Le Pechoux vs Ed.

hokers
-11th November 2010, 12:00
CADOT losing his temper vs JK.

Oh sht JK just fell off the piste and injured himself. looks bad :((

Gav
-11th November 2010, 12:01
Yeah I saw that. Ouch. Doesn't look good. This is a good match though.

wingnutLP
-11th November 2010, 12:22
I know that I am biassed but those masks look great :) Great job by LH to come back from 20 - 25 to 29 - 30

Lefty Foilist
-11th November 2010, 12:22
Halsted nearly pulled us back in front, but Le Pechoux's a crafty one; great bout though! 29-30 to the French.

hokers
-11th November 2010, 12:22
LH is *all over* Le Pechoux, gets it back to 29-30, (9-5)

Hassan
-11th November 2010, 12:23
I know that I am biassed but those masks look great :)

Sorry, I think they look ridiculous...

wingnutLP
-11th November 2010, 12:31
Sorry, I think they look ridiculous...

The camera man seems to like them and we have had a boat load of requests both from british fencers aand from non GB teams so I think you may be in a minority.

Gav
-11th November 2010, 12:32
I like the idea of them. In fact I am surprised we've not seen more made of this by teams and the FIE.

I'd be up for having my mask spray painted with the saltire!

Highlander
-11th November 2010, 12:35
would have been nice to have seen a least one attack from MM in his last fight

why wasn't Rhys fencing anyone know?

hokers
-11th November 2010, 12:39
JK seems fine now, brings it back to 38-40.

JackSparrow
-11th November 2010, 12:40
would have been nice to have seen a least one attack from MM in his last fight

why wasn't Rhys fencing anyone know?

Not now. Come on GBR!

aao
-11th November 2010, 12:45
have I missed something, the main site shows France having won 41-39 but I can't believe there would onl be 2 hits in the final fight, pluse the score updater doesn't show this

hokers
-11th November 2010, 12:45
Argh, defeat. 41-45.

wingnutLP
-11th November 2010, 12:47
finished 41 - 45 to France It was a good performance and great to watch. I was impressed with the quality of the live stream.

Lefty Foilist
-11th November 2010, 12:50
As many people have said over the years: bloody French!

Good contest though, well fought! Despite losing it's still an international match between the best of two countries, which results aside is rarely a dissapointing spectacle.

Thanks for the link Gav!

Gav
-11th November 2010, 12:54
The annoying thing is that there doesn't appear to be a different stream for any of the other pistes! If anyone wants to wade through the french and find out I'd appreciate it.

Hassan
-11th November 2010, 13:12
The camera man seems to like them and we have had a boat load of requests both from british fencers aand from non GB teams so I think you may be in a minority.

Gaudy and garish are two words that come to mind. And the fencer's name in big, black and bold capitals is far from subtle.

UglyBug
-11th November 2010, 13:35
Missed GBR v FRA - are they on again? is there a video of GBR v FRA? I want to see the pretty hats in action

Gav
-11th November 2010, 13:40
Missed GBR v FRA - are they on again? is there a video of GBR v FRA? I want to see the pretty hats in action

You've just given them their new nickname.

Team GB you are "The Pretty Hats"!

Gav
-11th November 2010, 13:47
Wow, the french are getting a pasting.

rpryer
-11th November 2010, 13:57
GBR currently 35-30 down in the 7/8 match

rpryer
-11th November 2010, 14:04
40-36 down going into the last fight.

rpryer
-11th November 2010, 14:10
Lost 45-39 to finish 8th.

Foilling Around
-11th November 2010, 15:05
Apart from China, very close matches throughout. Hard not to conclude that with RK they could very well have won the last two.

That is not an insult to the rest in the same way as saying that Man Utd are not the same without Rooney is not an insult to their rest of the team.

We have some great young talent in MF, I know as I have watched most of them progress through the age groups over the last 6/7 years. What they need is experience.

We now have the World Cup circuit coming up there they can get plenty of experience of pressure fencing. The fencers who come out on top to join RK and LH will be best of a strong pack. The Europeans next year will be a great launch pad shortly after the end of the WC calendar.

I really hope that a chance is given to all, not just a blinkered view of those already on pathway. Remember that most of our top tennis players over the years have not come through the national system.

Insipiens
-12th November 2010, 08:53
China went on to beat Italy 45-43 in the final and were clearly on top of their game yesterday. They did need Sheng Lei to beat Baldini 9 - 3 in the final bout though!

The Driver
-12th November 2010, 09:11
Two page article in "The Times" today - would attach copy it if my office computer would let me

aao
-12th November 2010, 09:56
Womens Epee team out to Japan in L32 44-37 :(

hokers
-12th November 2010, 10:43
Jo presenting a video tour of the Grand Palais. The clip also shows her going out 15-14, to an out-of-time counterattack that flukes a blockout.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/fencing/9182066.stm

More video from Paris from earlier:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/fencing/9168962.stm

Gav
-12th November 2010, 11:01
Poor Chrystal looked like she was about to burst into tears.

hokers
-12th November 2010, 11:18
I'm sure she did, but that has to be a sign of wanting it really badly, which is a good thing.

Difficult to tell from the angle of the video, but it looks like she went for a counter attack and missed, then was hit going backwards. Must be very hard to take, having done so well to that point.

cesh_fencing
-12th November 2010, 11:34
So with GB finished for this Worlds what can be learnt?

Mens foil team did well to get a L8 missng their No1 fencer I have to say. But this was a single highlight I feel.

Otherwise a bit of a non-event, with some fencers doing great first rounds and then not getting going for the L64 and losing to lower ranked fencers.

Where is it going wrong? PD level, general support for fencers day in day out, coaches at the event (i.e. National coaches), day to day coaches, or pretty much all of the fencers simply not performing on the day when it mattered?

I realise some are at World Champs for the first time, so they may deserve a bit of slack, but many of our squad are very experienced at going to worlds etc.

pigeonmeister
-12th November 2010, 11:42
It looks like the BBC really made a big effort for these champs. That itself shows much progressive has been made, but such as shame we couldn't deliver a major result for the cameras.

MatFink
-12th November 2010, 12:26
Firstly I am overjoyed that the BBC re taking more interest in fencing.

Having watched Graham interview, I think he cam across very well, and it is my personal feeling that a few of his comments were taken out of context. If you watch it, he clarifies his world class comment with the addition top 10.

Graham has the difficult job of driving performance but also protecting BF and the fencers by mitigating when things don't always go to plan. For me Crystal in the women's team sabre was a big highlight, as was the use of Katherine Kempe (demonstrating that we have more young talent to come through before 2012). The men's foil team beating USA without Richard was a highlight, and more than justified the choice to bring in Jamie Kember.

Ok maybe this wasn't our greatest championships, but with most teams achieving a percentage of Last 64's (which we haven't done in the past) it is clear that our strength in depth is an improvement on the past. Still nearly 2 years to 2012, and Men's Foil and Women's Sabre continue to show huge promise. Women's Foil and Men's Sabre and still in the race, and as I have stated on many occasions. I believe in Jon Willis, and the other epee guys. Women's epee is a very young team, so there is no reason that they shouldn't also develop over the next 18 months.

My lowlight, if you like, was our handling of the media specifically in regards to the Ed Jefferies burger thing. The faster BF look into working with a professional media consultant/consultancy the better. We are becoming a more professional organisation but it is essential that the world through the eyes of the media see us as such. I assume that we haven't had anyone handling this area up until now, but now is the time.

My opinion for what its worth, but I really believe there is evidence to be positive about moving forward.

Matt

DSSabre
-12th November 2010, 12:39
Having been out at the world championships i also believe that there is progress being made at all weapons in the run up to 2012. We have a good solid base now at Men's foil at all age groups and as Graham points out even without arguably our strongest fencer in the Men's Foil team we still made a last 8 in the team event.

I think we need to look towards the future and have faith in the system being put in place at senior level. Men's foil have produced medalists at all age ranges in the last couple of the years, what we need to do is look to apply this sytem more across the other wepaons and hopefully the money will be found to do this.

DS

D'Artignan
-12th November 2010, 16:23
This one looks entertaining - 7-3 for Korea against China halfway through the 5th match.

JohnL
-15th November 2010, 14:48
Ok maybe this wasn't our greatest championships, but with most teams achieving a percentage of Last 64's (which we haven't done in the past) it is clear that our strength in depth is an improvement on the past. Still nearly 2 years to 2012, and Men's Foil and Women's Sabre continue to show huge promise. Women's Foil and Men's Sabre and still in the race, and as I have stated on many occasions. I believe in Jon Willis, and the other epee guys. Women's epee is a very young team, so there is no reason that they shouldn't also develop over the next 18 months.

My lowlight, if you like, was our handling of the media specifically in regards to the Ed Jefferies burger thing. My opinion for what its worth, but I really believe there is evidence to be positive about moving forward.

Matt

Hey Matt

I held off on an opinion on the WC performance until after thy had been completed.

Let's look at the results shall we;
MF - 38th, 55th, 58th, 62nd. Team 8th
WF - 31st, 43rd, 65th, 69th. Team 12th
ME - 42nd, 67th, 117th. No team
WE - 68th, 84th, 104th, 127th. Team 17th
MS - 41st, 73rd. No team
WS - 23rd, 32nd, 48th, 59th. Team 13th

(Just FYI, I really don't care whether people come 33rd or 64th. All it says is you didn't make the L32)

Given the above, worrying about how the press were handled regarding a burger giving one of the guys food poisening pales into insignificance given the horrendous results listed above. If getting more people into the Last 64 was seen as an improvement, then we should just give up now. It is not what I expect of our top fencers and no doubt not what they expect of themselves.

My opinion;
MF - Hurt hugely by RK ingury. Individual results poor. Did well in the team, not just to beat the US but to hang in with other countries in the last 8 (China excluded.)
WF - Individual poor, Team worse.
ME - Pack up and go home. This was terrible (Sorry JW)
WE - Worse than mens epee.
MS - Individual poor, No Team.
WS - Individual OK, Team poor and showed a lack of depth.

I am not as optimistic as you. I believe the mens foil guys could do OK and there is a strength in depth that may bode reasonably for the future.

The other weapons, there are a few individuals that are doing well despite the system. Unfortunately my predictions (previous posts) of continued poor results have come true and in my opinion will continue to do so until we adopt a more narrow minded approach as apposed to the current broad bruch methodology of improving the quality of fencing in the UK.

hokers
-15th November 2010, 15:03
Would your opinion be different if any of the 3x 15-14 defeats for JW, JH, CN had gone the other way? How small a margin is it between a good result and a poor one? How much of that margin can be attributed to chance?

Also, remember AOC won 6-6 in the poule, as did CN. Doesn't sound *that* bad at the world championships does it?

JohnL
-15th November 2010, 17:06
Hey Hokers

At the WC's, doing well in a poule is fine as far as it goes. It helps you with your seeding to avoid some of the top fencers. As an acheivement on its own(If we're considering our guys world class), it means next to nothing.

As for losing 15-14, yes it's a bitch. But I don't imagine too many fencers making the L32 on the winning side of those results, being criticised for being "lucky," to make the L32. We constantly make excuses, "It's a young team," "They show promise," "They were unlucky." Unfortunately the results speak for themselves and generally speaking, they sucked.

Threestain
-15th November 2010, 17:53
Hey Hokers

At the WC's, doing well in a poule is fine as far as it goes. It helps you with your seeding to avoid some of the top fencers. As an acheivement on its own(If we're considering our guys world class), it means next to nothing.

I would disagree here. It means a hell of lot (at least in ME) - the number of previous world champions, A-Grade winners etc who have to go head to head in the preliminary DEs is ridiculous. Some didn't even make it through the poules.

Essentially in my opinion two results matter in the poules - 1. winning them all to go straight to the top 64 (or top 33% in epee), and avoiding one of the top 16. 2. winning 2 or less and being knocked out. After that I agree with it being immaterial.

Foilling Around
-15th November 2010, 21:10
WF - 31st, 43rd, 65th, 69th. Team 12th
WF - Individual poor, Team worse.

.

Whoa! I'm glad I'm not one of your kids, the judgement would be terrible.

Success has two measures; absolute and relative. It would take me far too long to research theother weapons so I will focus on the one I know best.

In absolute terms the return of a L32 and two L64 together with a teams result of 12th is poor. If however you look at progress and return on investment the. It is better.



Investment has been minimal compared to the men's foil. Last year in a similar size field we returned three L64s

The team have gradually proved their world ranking in 2010. In 2009 they were seeded 17 and finished 15th. This year they were seeded 14 and finished 12th.

The world ranking is now 12 and that starts to give winnable L16 matches.

That is all relative success and it is expanding the competiveness of the women's foil circuit at the top end. That can only drive standards higher.

JohnL
-17th November 2010, 21:48
My kids do just fine thank you. :)

It's just that I've seen for so long a system that won't work continuing to fail. If people consider last 64's a success, then I had an amazing international career!!!!

I expect a lot of our top fencers. I will support them in any way I can. But I maintain that with the exception of MF, any success is acheived in spite of the system, not because of it.

Foilling Around
-17th November 2010, 22:51
I expect a lot of our top fencers. I will support them in any way I can. But I maintain that with the exception of MF, any success is acheived in spite of the system, not because of it.

No arguments from me! There has been some funding for the women's foil to travel to events and some access to training at Lansdowne bit there has been no coherent strategy to develop the weapon structure and base.


My argument was with your limited definition of success. Though it is probably better tp define WF as making progress as opposed to achieving success.

aao
-18th November 2010, 02:16
In the post Olympic future I am sure we will all look back at what was done, why it was done and what it achieved and decide then whether we wish to keep the system going or make changes.
I have long been a vocal advocate for change in the way we are preparing our fencers in all disciplines outside mens foil, I too feel that we really haven't progressed the way we could and should have in the past few years, and I don't honestly feel that it has been a lack of resources that have led to this, its more that those resources have been allocated and then as far as I can see been left to either work or not, with no significant scrutiny of why they sometimes haven't led to the results we have hoped for.
However that said the system is what it is, the funding bodies have all but ensured that we can't now make any significant changes to how the funding is allocated, and the board/ceo/relevant committees have over the years decided to keep the faith with the current system. So basically we can all jump and shout and give our opinions and wish we were able to have the confidence that we have currently got realistic medal chances in more than one discipline, but ultimately it is now down to the fencers in those weapons to use the resources they have to the best of their ability and hopefully have a good day at the Olympics.

As I said at the end of the Olympics there will be changes whatever happens (the funding will be significantly reduced) whoever is in charge at that point will have an opportunity to make changes then.

The Driver
-18th November 2010, 09:10
I maintain that with the exception of MF, any success is acheived in spite of the system, not because of it.

A point well made, I think

pigeonmeister
-18th November 2010, 09:35
Youtube footage of Rhys Melia's L96 fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnnjhsuUUPw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieQuRAEGBEE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqV-TjhhjC0

Ronald Velden
-18th November 2010, 12:41
Let's be realistic Britain's International Fencers apart from those in Mens Foil
are amateurs.

We lack depth,facilities,high performance coaches and above all professional
training in all 5 other weapons.

On Saturday I was having dinner in Paris with a former French Olympic Medallist. He was complaining about the serious decline in standards in that
country, whose resources are at least 10 times larger than ours and have just
invested over £5 million in a World Championship!

As John L suggests any success achieved will be in spite of the system and not
because of it.

D'Artignan
-18th November 2010, 12:57
As I, for one, am getting sick of the sniping about the system, and how it's failing, I'd like to hear how John L and Ronald Velden especially would go about producing World Class fencers in all weapons, with great strength in depth, on the budget given? Especially as the latest World Championships on its own had a budget more than double BF's total Olympic funding (if the BBC is to be believed) over a period of years. We all know things aren't perfect, as it's clearly not, but offer realistic, workable solutions if you're going to be so vociferous in your criticisms. [/RANT]

JohnL
-18th November 2010, 13:38
As I, for one, am getting sick of the sniping about the system, and how it's failing, I'd like to hear how John L and Ronald Velden especially would go about producing World Class fencers in all weapons, with great strength in depth, on the budget given? Especially as the latest World Championships on its own had a budget more than double BF's total Olympic funding (if the BBC is to be believed) over a period of years. We all know things aren't perfect, as it's clearly not, but offer realistic, workable solutions if you're going to be so vociferous in your criticisms. [/RANT]

Hey D'Artignan

I have given my suggestions in numerous previous posts. I don't want to continually repeat them because I'd pi$$ people off, but these included;

1. Selecting youngsters (about 11 - 12) both boys and girls, who have not fenced before. Establish them in 5-6 groups around the country with a quality coach(s)

2. Isolate these from the remainder of the fencing community to avoid them being infected with the bad habits of British fencing. Let them fence in their group and against other groups for the first 5 years. After that they will have aquired enough base skills to avoid being infected.

3. Select 1 weapon only (I suggest foil). Let Sabre and Epee go the way of the dodo. There is barely enough coaches to do this with foil without wasting resources on other weapons.


Until drastic action is taken we will remain in the state we are. The plan needs to be long term (at least 10 years) This would then re-establish the grass roots with quality fencers and take british fencing where it could be.

Unfortunately I predicted this WC results would be no better than the last and I was right. I wish I had been wrong.

D'Artignan
-18th November 2010, 13:44
Thanks for taking the time to respond to that little rant John. Tbh, it does sound like a longer term version of pretty much what was decided to do with funding received for the Olympics, though. Maybe this observation supports what you're suggesting, maybe not. I believe other countries may have done something similar as well, but can't be sure. Over to Ronald, now.... :p

aao
-18th November 2010, 14:29
Ok an alternative view of what could have been done and in some cases still could.

1) coaches: We have an excellent one in mens foil, clearly connects with the fencers and improves them, this helps raise standards across the board and leads to a better standard of fencing all round. The other weapons can't say the same, the appointed caoches are by no means bad coaches, but they haven't managed to get the results out of the fencers. If the coaching set up doesn't work then change it, don't just continue down the same line and hope for the best.
How to I evaluate this? simply by comparing the weapons, take RK out of the mens foil and you still have fencers at all ages scoring excellent international results (ignore the blip that was this years worlds) in the other weapons apart from the odd great result the performances are not much better then they were when the coaches were appointed.

2) Focus on the individual not the team. Too many of our weapons are focusing on their 'teams' with the excuse typically that the individuals aren't that important its the teams we want to qualify at the Olympics. Unbelievably misguided in my opinion, if you want a team to have a chance of a medal you need at least one preferably 2 world class fencers in it, every one of the world's medalling teams seemed to have that set up, and even our own mens foil team could overcome the loss of our only world class fencer. Except for our mens foil team none of the others are even close to being at the standard they need to be at, and the focus on making hte team better is significantly reducing the ability of our senior fencers to go out and train where they want and how they want.
Lets be honest, we are going to need wild cards to get most of our fencers into the Olympics so give the fencers a clear route to qualify (e.g. the highest ranked fencer in world cup rankings in each weapon will qualify (if they haven't lready done so by right) the weapon which has the highest ranked fencers overall will also get to send a team which will be selected from the world cup ranking. Keep it simple set the targets and remove the role of the coach in actually dictating what fencers will go.

3) Funding: 'too little funding this, isn't enough funding that' oh come on! yes we are underfunded compared to other sports, but what exactly have we as a sport done to go out and get sponsorship money into the sport (you know the kind of money every other sport gets, which it can spend how it wishes!). We are quite possibly the most under sponsored Olympic sport in the country and in the past 3 years despite having people tasked with the job have achieved virtually nothing!
If we need more money then lets go and get it from the private sector, and for those of you who say oh its not that easy or its not possible, well crap, it is, my own small company invests up to £100k a year on sponsorship into a number of niche sports and we are tiny, if you package it up right and don't ask for the moon it is easy to sell fencing to prospective sponsors, especially as for a very small outlay they have a chance of sponsoring Olympic medallists!
(also for those who say why don't you do it, well I and others have for years offered to, the BFA clearly doesn't want/need the help so apologies for being discouraged)

4) Juniors/Cadets, they are so pissed off with the system its incredible, it costs too much, qualifying criteria are still vague, the Academy is a good idea but is only a few times a year. Basically we could have done so much more for them, even starting at looking at costs and how they can be reduced years ago, its only now that we are trying to do something and its too late for any of them to actually now affect 2012.

5) Accountability and decision making: Nobody ever seems accountable for bad results so nobody seems particullarily worried about fixing them, thats bad enough when you have an unpaid volunteer work force, but is unacceptable when you have a paid one. Every decision seems now to take an age to be acted on, there are committees and sub committes for virtually everything, and the general feeeling seems to be lets just get to the Olympics get it done and then leave the mess to others to fix.

Lets not kid ourselves, it could have been done better, the solutions were there for all to see, but there seems to be so little dialogue between some of the BFA and the actual fencers and coaches that its hardly suprising that we are where we are. I am 100% our fencers, I really wish them all the best but I agree that the system has in some weapons hardly helped them.

Ronald Velden
-18th November 2010, 17:29
D'Artignan

My point was not a criticism of the fencers, but rather that we are operating
a very limited system with very modest resources and it is completely unrealistic to expect amateur fencers to compete against the likes of China,
Italy,France and Russia who have much better resources.

Russia recruited earlier this year Bauer a notable sabre coach at a salary of
US$500,000 per year. That is more than the total budget of our Foil Squad.

As the BBC correspondent who attended the World Championships pointed
out the budget of British Fencing is amongst the smallest of any Olympic Sports in this country.

If you look at Richard Kruse's career you will see that he reached the Olympic Final in Athens with minimal funding and training support at that
time. He was offered just two weeks training in Portugal in a pre Olympic
Camp offered by either IOC or FIE.Furthermore if my memory serves me right he did not even have access to training with Laurence Halsted who
was taking time out of the sport whilst at University. The only advantage
that Richard had was a World Class Coach. That is what I think John L
means by someone who achieves success in spite of the system.

I have said many times before that Sports England and UK Sport would have
been far better advised to invest money at the bottom of the sport rather than unrealistic dreams of winning medals with such limited resources that
are currently available.