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munkey
-8th February 2011, 23:04
I had a look at the British JMF end of season rankings that appeared on the BF website today and will presumably be used to select the team for the World Junior Championships. It's been an outstanding season for the junior men's foilists and the top 4 in the GB rankings are 1. James Davis 2. Husayn Rosowsky 3. Alex Tofalides 4. Jamie Fitzgerald. I then looked at the FIE junior men's foil rankings and found that the top 4 Brits are ranked thus: 6. Fitzgerald 12. Tofalides 14. Rosowsky 16. Davis i.e. exactly the reverse of the British rankings.

Now I'd just like to point out that all 4 are outstanding fencers and any of them could produce an exceptional result at the Junior Worlds but isn't it a bit weird when our ranking system can produce a three man team for the individuals that doesn't include the world no. 6?

Your thoughts please.

Regards

Munkey

pinkelephant
-8th February 2011, 23:17
I had a look at the British JMF end of season rankings that appeared on the BF website today and will presumably be used to select the team for the World Junior Championships. It's been an outstanding season for the junior men's foilists and the top 4 in the GB rankings are 1. James Davis 2. Husayn Rosowsky 3. Alex Tofalides 4. Jamie Fitzgerald. I then looked at the FIE junior men's foil rankings and found that the top 4 Brits are ranked thus: 6. Fitzgerald 12. Tofalides 14. Rosowsky 16. Davis i.e. exactly the reverse of the British rankings.

Now I'd just like to point out that all 4 are outstanding fencers and any of them could produce an exceptional result at the Junior Worlds but isn't it a bit weird when our ranking system can produce a three man team for the individuals that doesn't include the world no. 6?

Your thoughts please.

Regards

Munkey

Not weird at all. The FIE scoring system is a very blunt instrument which does not distinguish between competitions of different strength. The BF system is far more subtle, and rewards performance at a tougher event with a greater number of points.

munkey
-8th February 2011, 23:26
Not weird at all. The FIE scoring system is a very blunt instrument which does not distinguish between competitions of different strength. The BF system is far more subtle, and rewards performance at a tougher event with a greater number of points.

True to an extent. For example the Egyptian who is ranked 19th in the FIE JMF gained 48 of his 56 ranking points by winning the African Zonal championships. But if you're European that's clearly not the case and the reduction in the number of FIE events this season means there really aren't any easy World Cups.

TomA
-9th February 2011, 01:24
It's worth bearing in mind that Jamie Fitzgerald is still counting his result from Aix in 2009 as well in his world ranking, but not in his British one.

pinkelephant
-9th February 2011, 16:49
True to an extent. For example the Egyptian who is ranked 19th in the FIE JMF gained 48 of his 56 ranking points by winning the African Zonal championships. But if you're European that's clearly not the case and the reduction in the number of FIE events this season means there really aren't any easy World Cups.
True - but the current ranking list is built on the previous 12 months, not just this season's Brave New World.

Foilling Around
-27th February 2011, 12:29
True - but the current ranking list is built on the previous 12 months, not just this season's Brave New World.

The British Ranking, which is an aquisitive ranking from the beginning of the season, very much rewards 'form'. What you did in the 7 months of the year before the current seaon began in immaterial.

So who would you rather went to the Worlds? Someone who is fencing well right now, or someone who was fencing well 9 months ago.

pinkelephant
-27th February 2011, 12:43
The British Ranking, which is an aquisitive ranking from the beginning of the season, very much rewards 'form'. What you did in the 7 months of the year before the current seaon began in immaterial.

So who would you rather went to the Worlds? Someone who is fencing well right now, or someone who was fencing well 9 months ago.

I'm not sure what you're getting at - I wasn't expressing an opinion. I was merely pointing out that the current FIE ranking includes results from LAST season, before things got really tough.

Foilling Around
-27th February 2011, 13:05
I'm not sure what you're getting at - I wasn't expressing an opinion. I was merely pointing out that the current FIE ranking includes results from LAST season, before things got really tough.

And my reply was not intended to be as aggressive as it reads. It was a kind of rhetorical question.

TomA
-27th February 2011, 13:21
So who would you rather went to the Worlds? Someone who is fencing well right now, or someone who was fencing well 9 months ago.Bit of a red herring really. You could have a good season up until, say, Christmas, qualify off those results and then take a nose dive for the rest of the season but still be selected (less true for men's foil at the moment though).

Equally I think you could argue that the system encourages fencers to peak for the qualifying events (World Cups + Junior Euros) rather than for the world championships. You can see this comparing results from the Europeans with results from the Worlds - British performances at the former are, IMO, disproportionately better than at the Worlds, even taking into account the missing Chinese, Americans etc.