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Captchris
-17th March 2011, 16:16
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere previously...

One of my young fencers is on the verge of puberty and is complaining of knee pain. I was worried and advised the parents to take them to a doctor asap. Their family doctor couldn't see anything wrong and prescribed ibuprofen (a similar dosage to the over-the-counter stuff).

Whilst receiving some physio treatment myself the other day, I'd mentioned it to her, and she said it was common due to the growth phases of youngsters. From what I can recall...

The bones are growing quickly, hence if they don't stretch the leg muscles, then it puts pressure/tension on the ligaments and hence on the patella. This can cause problems for them later in life. I can't remember exactly the names of the problems as it was in Latin and I was being pummelled like a lump of dough at the time!

I wasn't sure if any of you had come across this and if you were aware of the problems that could ensue.

As for my youngster I was going to suggest they stretch before and after training, but also in the mornings and evenings (as suggested by the physio).

What are your thoughts? Are there exercises to help with the shin muscles as well as the quads? Is there anything else my young fencer could be doing to help themselves?

Thanks in advance,

SotonFencer
-17th March 2011, 16:38
As a boy I used to suffer from something similar - which was always around the lower knee and at times would get quite painful (esp at night). Doctors said it was Osgood–Schlatter disease. Best thing is RICE and Ibuprofen I also found Deep heat/Tiger balm helped... It all stopped just after puberty (When all my other problems began!!)

Captchris
-18th March 2011, 00:32
That sounds familiar! I think that's one of the things the Physio said. When you say RICE, are you talking about Raise, Ice, Compression, Elevation?

Red
-18th March 2011, 01:07
Almost - Rest

S&C Guy
-18th March 2011, 12:08
Yeh, sounds like Osgood–Schlatters to me. The key with that is athlete management. There will be stuff he can do and stuff he can't. Makes sure he is vocal with you if pain comes on, many athletes stay quiet about pain thinking they may be looked on as soft if they moan. Reduce the volume of training he does and make sure he gets plenty of rest. You just have to be patient for a while.

I would look at it as an opportunity to work on other skills rather than heavy sparring and stuff. Possibly blade skills, tactics stuff, along with working on some of the basic S&C stuff we have on the Academy website. His body is changing and that takes some getting used to so he will lose some co-ordination and balance for a while so that needs to be worked on. Also he is going from a period of his life where he is very mobile as a kid into reduced mobility as an adult, for example ask your youngest guys to do a deep sqaut and they can do it easy, now try that as an adult. it will probably be much harder! If this is trained throughout this period though you should not lose the ability to do a full squat. Again everythin you should do with him should be governed by the amount of pain he is experiencing, but it gives you an option to keep him involved and training.

One final thought, consider fencing is a 'quad-dominant' sport and quad dominant athletes are more likely to experience knee pain due to the quads connnecting in between the shin bones and the knee cap. This puts pressure on the knee joint. To ease this pressure it is important to work on soft tissue quality, by massage or foam rolling of the quads and IT Band (ligament on the outside of your leg) and then strengthening the hamstrings with eccentric work such as straight leg deadlifts, glute-ham raises and Nordics.

Good luck, Rhys

Nick_C
-25th March 2011, 22:45
This sounds very similar to what i've had over the last 12 months.

Anterior knee pain - i've seen about a million consultants of this and that, and they've, now, almost agreed on Patello-femoral pain syndrome aka "Runners' knee". The cause isn't known, but may be related to stiffening of leg muscles. Stretching courses are thought to help (although it hasn't really helped me), but your kids should really be stretching before and after fencing anyway.

At its worst, its debilitating - i couldn't walk down stairs or slopes, and i could barely walk up them. It means you can't really train or go to the gym effectively. Prognosis isn't greatly helpful - it will either clear up, or not, sometimes after a few months, or sometimes not. I've had MRI scans & physio courses. It's caused me to not fence nor gym since the Commonwealths (6 months), and my knees are as good now as they've ever been over the last year.

Let's hope he's not got this!

S&C Guy
-25th March 2011, 23:04
This sounds very similar to what i've had over the last 12 months.

Anterior knee pain - i've seen about a million consultants of this and that, and they've, now, almost agreed on Patello-femoral pain syndrome aka "Runners' knee". The cause isn't known, but may be related to stiffening of leg muscles. Stretching courses are thought to help (although it hasn't really helped me), but your kids should really be stretching before and after fencing anyway.

At its worst, its debilitating - i couldn't walk down stairs or slopes, and i could barely walk up them. It means you can't really train or go to the gym effectively. Prognosis isn't greatly helpful - it will either clear up, or not, sometimes after a few months, or sometimes not. I've had MRI scans & physio courses. It's caused me to not fence nor gym since the Commonwealths (6 months), and my knees are as good now as they've ever been over the last year.

Let's hope he's not got this!

Nick C, this is more common in adults than teenagers but very painful! I would recomend looking into some Foam Rolling (You can buy one for 10 from physio supply stores). The go on youtube and learn to foam roll your quads and IT Band. This will be brutal when you first do it, but the relief can be huge! Most people i see with Runners knee have extremely tight IT Bands (a thick ligament that runs from your hip to the knee on the outside of your leg), the tension builds up causing it to pull the knee laterally. Also several muscles connect onto the IT Band and these can stop functioning properly if there are ITB issues. Rolling the quads too may help. Fencing is quad dominant and the extra work these muscles recieve (and subsequent hypertrophy) can cause some knee pain as the quads connect in behind the back of the knee cap. Easing tension in this area can help manage pain also.

These aren't always the issues but for a tenner i think its well worth a go! But brace yourself for the IT Band rolling! It will get better eventually but the first few times it can make grown men weep!

Rhys

Captchris
-26th March 2011, 13:58
UPDATE: Since upping the stretching regimen to... morning, before fencing, after fencing, evening its calmed down a lot. So my youngster is a lot happier, healthier and raring to go! We've also been looking at different quad stretches. I'm afraid I only know variants of the one from the Performance Preparation routine.

Nick_C
-26th March 2011, 17:45
Nick C, this is more common in adults than teenagers but very painful! I would recomend looking into some Foam Rolling (You can buy one for 10 from physio supply stores). The go on youtube and learn to foam roll your quads and IT Band. This will be brutal when you first do it, but the relief can be huge! Most people i see with Runners knee have extremely tight IT Bands (a thick ligament that runs from your hip to the knee on the outside of your leg), the tension builds up causing it to pull the knee laterally. Also several muscles connect onto the IT Band and these can stop functioning properly if there are ITB issues. Rolling the quads too may help. Fencing is quad dominant and the extra work these muscles recieve (and subsequent hypertrophy) can cause some knee pain as the quads connect in behind the back of the knee cap. Easing tension in this area can help manage pain also.

These aren't always the issues but for a tenner i think its well worth a go! But brace yourself for the IT Band rolling! It will get better eventually but the first few times it can make grown men weep!

Rhys

Great, thanks for that. I shall invest - fingers crossed!

S&C Guy
-27th March 2011, 16:12
UPDATE: Since upping the stretching regimen to... morning, before fencing, after fencing, evening its calmed down a lot. So my youngster is a lot happier, healthier and raring to go! We've also been looking at different quad stretches. I'm afraid I only know variants of the one from the Performance Preparation routine.

Glad to hear its easing off. There are bound to be some good and bad days but the pain can be managed and if the athletes commited to stretching and recovery theres no reason for it to stop him training long term.

As far as other quad stretches, there aren't many. The knee is a hinge joint, it only bends one way and most of the quads only go over the knee joint so apart from pulling your heel to you bum either standing or lying down you don't have a lot of options! One quad muscle however goes over the hip as well though so you can do more to stretch this muscle. If you go into a lunge as shown in the Hip Flexor stretch on the performance prep stuff and then pull your back foot to the bum, keeping the knee on the floor this will stretch the Rec-Fem further. It is sometimes called a sprinter stretch, if you look that or Rec-fem stretch on youtube you should find examples if you can't picture what i'm describing. You can also put the foot onto a bench, if holding it is too dificult/painful. Remember to squeeze the glute on the side your are stretching as hard as possible to get your hips in the correct position also.

Rhys

Captchris
-27th March 2011, 20:10
Cheers for that. I think I'm picturing what you're describing.

valentino46
-28th March 2011, 14:26
ive had Osgood–Schlatters about 3 years ago and i was told not to do any sports for a couple of months (6-7) i havent had any trouble but recently about the last 2-3 weeks ive had trouble with the back leg and was wondering can it come back?

Thanks,

Conor

p.s i've tried RICE and Ibuprofen but it doesnt seem to do anything and it didnt the first time :/

S&C Guy
-29th March 2011, 10:01
ive had Osgood–Schlatters about 3 years ago and i was told not to do any sports for a couple of months (6-7) i havent had any trouble but recently about the last 2-3 weeks ive had trouble with the back leg and was wondering can it come back?

Thanks,

Conor

p.s i've tried RICE and Ibuprofen but it doesnt seem to do anything and it didnt the first time :/

Sadly this is often the recomendation of physios or doctors that are not used to working with sportsmen. Not doing anything for 6-7months will stop you from experiencing pain but it doesn't really solve anything. Its like if your son is struggling with his Maths homework, so you tell him to just not do any Maths homework for the rest of the year! He doesn't struggle any more but it doesn't help his maths and next year its likely he will struggle even more.

The important thing to understand about Osgood-Schlatters is its not that it can come back like a virus, but some people are more likley to have issues with it during periods of growth due to the differing rates of bone and muscle growth. Once you have finished your major growth spurts you shouldn't experience issues with it any more, and continuing pain will be from other problems, that may or may not be related to the original pain. As i said earlier there is no need to stop doing everything, if you do that you will get some muscle wastage and come back to fencing with weaker smaller muscles that are not strong enough to manage the new range on limb length you have developed. Instead you should use the time to reduce your training volume, make sure what you do do is quality work and within your pain management. Use the time to stretch, utilise soft tissue work like massage and foam rolling and maintain mobility through the ranges you need for fencing. From there maintain strength or even build strength within that range. RICE can be good post training but not everyone gets relief from it because it isn't really an inflammation issue, same with ibuprofen. Muscular pain is sometimes better managed with things like Voltarol but to be honest i don't really recomend any pain management unless absolutely necessary! Instead monitor your pain and manage your training accordingly. If its bothering your take the time to focus on blade skills and upper body work, if its ok, take the opportunity to get some light sparring or mobility/strength work in.

All athletes need to take responsibility for their own bodies. You know when your in pain and how much, no one else can tell you these things. The key then is to make an intelligent decision, Is this pain serious or am i just sore? Do i need to train in pain today? If i train today, will the pain/injury get worse? If i train am i willing to take responsibility for doing any further damage to myself that will stop me from training long term in the future?

Quick anecdote for you. I had my first Weightlifting comp last year and i had been training for it for 4 months. I was excited and nervous and whilst training on my own, without my coach supervising i managed to break my thumb. This was 5 days away from the comp, i was training tired and getting frustrated because it wasn't going well and i should have gone home, but instead i carried on and had an accident. The doctor told me i shouldn't compete, but i decided that no long term damage would come from competing. It wasn't muscular or ligaments, and the thumb wasn't sticking off at an agle, it was just swollen and very painful. So i trained once more on it to test it and then competed with it strapped into position and loaded up on some pain killers. After the comp i took 4 weeks off for it to heal. Was it painful to compete, yes, very! Is my thumb ok now, yep! Could anyone else make the decision for me whether i could deal with the pain, no.

The thing to remember is that developing teenage bodies need to be looked after. Teenagers recover energy wise, quicker than ligaments and tendons. you don't want to be a 17-18yr old guy with long term recurrant injuries hanging over you, they will only get worse! You have your whole adult life to enjoy fencing or any other sport or physical activity, do not put that at risk over fencing one or two local competitions as a teenager!

Hope this helps,

Rhys

Rhys

Threestain
-13th April 2011, 22:56
According to the evidence base for Osgood Schlatter's Disease (overuse injury leading to repeated avulsion where the patellar tendon attaches to the tibia)

Conservative measures are the mainstay of therapy. We suggest the following conservative measures (Grade 2C):
Application of ice to the involved area after participating in sporting activities.
Analgesics or nonsteroidal antiinflammatory drugs as needed for pain.
Continued sports participation, provided that the pain can be tolerated and resolves within 24 hours.
Physical therapy to strengthen the quadriceps and stretch the quadriceps and hamstrings.

Bear in mind that most sportsmen and women actively cause their injuries to worsen due to inadequate time for healing (though this doesn't necessarily mean complete bedrest!). Hence why my tendonitis persists. Hence why my dad's hip had to replaced at 64 (ex rugby and cricket). Balance is what's required!

fencingnewbie
-14th April 2011, 02:32
Well, for pain relief a warm compress would surely ease the pain. And for the medications, don't just take over-the-counter NSAIDS, better consult a physician so that you'll be assured that you are taking the right and helpful medication. Don't use that aching part too much, it will just cause more friction on the bones, hence producing more pain. So, rest is another option.

pinkelephant
-14th April 2011, 08:42
Well, for pain relief a warm compress would surely ease the pain. And for the medications, don't just take over-the-counter NSAIDS, better consult a physician so that you'll be assured that you are taking the right and helpful medication. Don't use that aching part too much, it will just cause more friction on the bones, hence producing more pain. So, rest is another option.

Threestain is a doctor. If he says ice, ice it is. Ice will reduce inflammation - warmth won't.

valentino46
-14th April 2011, 12:09
Also rest doesnt do anything im currently doing stretches and icing my leg and it feels much better :) so i'd listen to the people that know there stuff :)

fencingnewbie
-14th April 2011, 16:30
Threestain is a doctor. If he says ice, ice it is. Ice will reduce inflammation - warmth won't.

I beg to disagree. Actually the principle is, when it involves bones/ joints it is usually relieved by warm compress because cold will aggravate the pain. But if it involves muscles, say a bump then the immediate remedy would be cold compress (within 24 hours) then alternate warm and cold over the next hours.

fencingnewbie
-17th April 2011, 03:04
Well, for pain relief a warm compress would surely ease the pain. And for the medications, don't just take over-the-counter NSAIDS, better consult a physician so that you'll be assured that you are taking the right and helpful medication. Don't use that aching part too much, it will just cause more friction on the bones, hence producing more pain. So, rest is another option.

To make this comment clear, just want to add up something. I suggested warm compress because this is actually helpful before doing the practice. This will increase circulation to the area so there will be lesser pain. The cold compress is applicable AFTER the training because inflammation may have occurred due to the friction between the joints. So it is just a combination of hot and cold compresses.

pinkelephant
-17th April 2011, 23:26
To make this comment clear, just want to add up something. I suggested warm compress because this is actually helpful before doing the practice. This will increase circulation to the area so there will be lesser pain. The cold compress is applicable AFTER the training because inflammation may have occurred due to the friction between the joints. So it is just a combination of hot and cold compresses.

So why are you disagreeing? Threestain specifically said ice was to be used AFTER participating in sporting activities.

Nick_C
-19th April 2011, 17:03
...but the first few times it can make grown men weep! ...

you weren't joking!!!

Threestain
-26th April 2011, 19:22
warm compresses are useful for pain relief, because they work in the same way as capsaicin cream for chronic pain, and by rubbing the area. The different nerve fibres are gated in specific ways allowing pain to be somewhat modified. It does not affect the actual causation itself merely the symptom. NSAIDs and paracetamol (also an anti-inflammatory but with an unclear pathway) act to reduce the pro-inflammatory cytokines and reduce the actual inflammation.

StabInTheDark
-1st May 2011, 17:54
warm compresses are useful for pain relief, because they work in the same way as capsaicin cream for chronic pain, and by rubbing the area. The different nerve fibres are gated in specific ways allowing pain to be somewhat modified. It does not affect the actual causation itself merely the symptom. NSAIDs and paracetamol (also an anti-inflammatory but with an unclear pathway) act to reduce the pro-inflammatory cytokines and reduce the actual inflammation.

Sorry to join this thread rather late,

First thing to say is you can't diagnose and treat over the Forum however wonderful it may be in other respects, and however good the above advice in terms of general treatment of soft tissue injuries.

Second, conservative treatment ie doing nothing often works anyway, But....

Third - do see a specialist sports physio and take their advice. Doctors often don't understand enough about the dynamics of sport and the possible musculoskeletal consquences of fencing in particular

Finally, a suggestion to ask the physio about from my own experience: my dauighter had recurrent knee pain for about 18 months, associated with fencing whilst growing, a thorough and complete examination by a really good sports physio suggested that the problem was in her stance, not really to do with growth rates at all: referred to a podiatrist who identified low arches causing knees to bend slightly inwards and putting strain on tendons and ligaments around knee: answer - othopaedic inserts for fencing and avoidance of "flat" shoes at other times (encouraged to wear heels to school). You can test to some extent for this yourself by asking the subject to stand, "normally" relaxed, in bare feet and draw a line with a felt tip pen up the achilles tendon - should be a nice straight vertical line. if it is bendy you may have a problem. Daughters knee problem resolved with one visit to Physio and two to podiatrist (one diagnosis & fitting, other one follow up). Both private, total cost about 200 incl the cost of the orthopaedic appliances. (BTW The podiatrist was freaked out initially by the wear pattern on her fencing shoes, take along a pair of everyday trainers)

NB Same physio 2 years later also spotted daughter's shoulder problem ultimately requiring surgery: told us, exactly, in 20 mins what it then took the NHS 18 months and an MRI scan to confirm. Will let you have his details by PM if you wish.

Nick_C
-1st May 2011, 19:42
NB Same physio 2 years later also spotted daughter's shoulder problem ultimately requiring surgery: told us, exactly, in 20 mins what it then took the NHS 18 months and an MRI scan to confirm. Will let you have his details by PM if you wish.

I have to just say that this is exactly my experience too!

12 months of GPs, orthopaedic surgeons, Sports medicine consultant appointments and mri scans... result: we advise you to not fence for 6 weeks - lol, i've not fenced for 6 months anyway.

5 minute chat with two separate physios, both saying the same thing, and I think they've hit the nail on the head!

S&C Guy
-2nd May 2011, 09:43
Sorry to join this thread rather late,

First thing to say is you can't diagnose and treat over the Forum however wonderful it may be in other respects, and however good the above advice in terms of general treatment of soft tissue injuries.

Second, conservative treatment ie doing nothing often works anyway, But....

Third - do see a specialist sports physio and take their advice. Doctors often don't understand enough about the dynamics of sport and the possible musculoskeletal consquences of fencing in particular

Finally, a suggestion to ask the physio about from my own experience: my dauighter had recurrent knee pain for about 18 months, associated with fencing whilst growing, a thorough and complete examination by a really good sports physio suggested that the problem was in her stance, not really to do with growth rates at all: referred to a podiatrist who identified low arches causing knees to bend slightly inwards and putting strain on tendons and ligaments around knee: answer - othopaedic inserts for fencing and avoidance of "flat" shoes at other times (encouraged to wear heels to school). You can test to some extent for this yourself by asking the subject to stand, "normally" relaxed, in bare feet and draw a line with a felt tip pen up the achilles tendon - should be a nice straight vertical line. if it is bendy you may have a problem. Daughters knee problem resolved with one visit to Physio and two to podiatrist (one diagnosis & fitting, other one follow up). Both private, total cost about 200 incl the cost of the orthopaedic appliances. (BTW The podiatrist was freaked out initially by the wear pattern on her fencing shoes, take along a pair of everyday trainers)

NB Same physio 2 years later also spotted daughter's shoulder problem ultimately requiring surgery: told us, exactly, in 20 mins what it then took the NHS 18 months and an MRI scan to confirm. Will let you have his details by PM if you wish.

Absolutely agree with everything said here!

Also the knee tracking in is something we take particular interest in with the Academy guys, its particularly prevelant in females (because of their hip shape) and is a predictor for ACL damage! It can be a sign of dropped arches however is more often a sign of tight calf muscles and weak glutes! So stretch, foam roll, activate and strength ad infintium!!! 9 times out of 10 the differences achieved from this simple protocol is huge. I've had numerous PM's from people who've tried it and had success so give it a go!

Rhys

Threestain
-2nd May 2011, 17:29
obviously I would never diagnose someone over the internet. equally anecdotal evidence is merely that anecdotal.

however I do appreciate that certain sports specialists do have vast experience.

I can only give my advice as someone who has fenced for 20 years, is medically qualified, had the good fortune to work and fence with some excellent sports physios and therapists, been involved in the medical conferences at world championships (where other countries explained their sports treatment programmes - many years ahead of ours to be honest), and does have a working understanding the bio-mechanics of the sport.

Jon Willis
-2nd May 2011, 22:42
I can only give my advice as someone who has fenced for 20 years, is medically qualified, had the good fortune to work and fence with some excellent sports physios and therapists, been involved in the medical conferences at world championships (where other countries explained their sports treatment programmes - many years ahead of ours to be honest), and does have a working understanding the bio-mechanics of the sport.

But apart from all that, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Threestain
-3rd May 2011, 22:42
I believe they gave the world the vestal virgins...

pinkelephant
-3rd May 2011, 23:05
I thought they kept the vestal virgins OUT of the world.

Foilling Around
-3rd May 2011, 23:25
I certainly don't think they did anything about knee pain as my left knee was aching after 2 days of refereeing at the BYCs

CRC
-9th July 2011, 21:31
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere previously...

One of my young fencers is on the verge of puberty and is complaining of knee pain. I was worried and advised the parents to take them to a doctor asap. Their family doctor couldn't see anything wrong and prescribed ibuprofen (a similar dosage to the over-the-counter stuff).

Whilst receiving some physio treatment myself the other day, I'd mentioned it to her, and she said it was common due to the growth phases of youngsters. From what I can recall...

The bones are growing quickly, hence if they don't stretch the leg muscles, then it puts pressure/tension on the ligaments and hence on the patella. This can cause problems for them later in life. I can't remember exactly the names of the problems as it was in Latin and I was being pummelled like a lump of dough at the time!

I wasn't sure if any of you had come across this and if you were aware of the problems that could ensue.

As for my youngster I was going to suggest they stretch before and after training, but also in the mornings and evenings (as suggested by the physio).

What are your thoughts? Are there exercises to help with the shin muscles as well as the quads? Is there anything else my young fencer could be doing to help themselves?

Thanks in advance,

When I was going through puberty, (a long time ago) I also experienced pain behind my knees. It usually happened at night and usually was only on the right side. It was just due to growing. It just may be what some people call growing pains.

diame
-2nd September 2011, 09:22
fencingnewbie - Thanks for making it clear..

http://www.fencingforum.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=246629

eheart
-20th September 2011, 03:39
Your back knee is getting lots of new kinds of forces exerted on it. Joints aren't made to handle forces. That's the job of all the little muscles around them. So if your knee is causing you pain, it's letting you know that the muscles around your knee need to be stronger.

Bertiegol01
-24th November 2011, 07:18
Good post. You did a good work,and offer more effective imformation for us! Thank you.

madfencer
-24th November 2011, 13:45
Absolutely agree with everything said here!

Also the knee tracking in is something we take particular interest in with the Academy guys, its particularly prevelant in females (because of their hip shape) and is a predictor for ACL damage! It can be a sign of dropped arches however is more often a sign of tight calf muscles and weak glutes! So stretch, foam roll, activate and strength ad infintium!!! 9 times out of 10 the differences achieved from this simple protocol is huge. I've had numerous PM's from people who've tried it and had success so give it a go!

Rhys

Interesting. I bust my knee 2 and a half weeks ago. Sports therapist said that my knee is tracking (I have dropped arches because of fused bones in my left foot) and I have predicted ACL and medial ligament damage, aswell as damage to the meniscus (hoping to get an MRI or ultrasound to confirm). I also recently had hip problems and was told I had weak glutes and really tight calves! What stretches would be good Rhys?

EDIT: it's my front knee and front hip (left)

Jacdaw
-17th December 2011, 22:57
This might be abit late but I will say it anyway, when I was 14/15 I had Osgood-Shlatters (probably spelt wrong) and I had to go to the doctors to get it checked. I had been putting off the doctor for sometime and he told me that if I hadn't of gone to him when I did it could of got really serious and had to have around 2 years off sport. I didn't originally know where I had got it from, as I do other strenuous activities like parkour. But from the sounds of it fencing causes allot of cases. I'm now fully recovered :P in the end it took around 4 months to heal. Then another 2 to get back into shape XD

n_freebody
-3rd July 2013, 10:07
Sorry to resurect an old thread but I figured that would be better than start a new one on a very similar if not the same topic.

I have problems with my front knee. It feels weaker than my other one, hurts whilst exercising and when I squat more often than not there is a loud cracking sound. I year or so ago I had the same problem and so went to my dr (I was very lucky in that one of the GP's at my surgery was a sports specialist) and he identified it as collapsing arches. I bought insoles for all my training shoes and the problem went away within a week or so. Unfortunately it has come back and I have now moved to a place with no sports specialist GP's and I cant afford to go see a physio.

Could this be caused by over training? I know RICE is one of the best things for it but rest isnt really an option at the moment due to the elite epee comming up. The best I can do for the time being is cut out all the knee impact exercises at circuit training and maybe swap gym for swimming for a while. Are things such as cycling and rowing good or bad for your knees? I will probably also invest in one of those foam rollers as they do look good and have borrowed a friends to do my back occasionally and so would be a worth while investment. Other than that (and yes I realise the forum is no substitue for professional help), is there and exercises that can help strengthen my knee?

Alternatively can insoles ware out and become ineffective? Could it be that I need a set properly measured to my feet?

I dont know, I'm fairly rubbish with all this physio/injury stuff. Sorry if I have rambled.

cesh_fencing
-3rd July 2013, 11:44
but rest isnt really an option at the moment due to the elite epee comming up.

Probably need to see the specialist I am afraid. One cause could be that when you lunge your knee passes the vertical so you are putting too much pressure on it??

As for the Elite Epee, Herman Fenton is going to be along doing sports therapy sessions and he will probably be the best person to speak to as he will have seen lots of similar over the last 20 years he has been dealing with fencing injuries.

He has put me back together more times than I wish to remember. And he will give you great advice on how to avoid the problem going forward..

Rudd
-3rd July 2013, 11:47
Are things such as cycling and rowing good or bad for your knees?
It depends. They are low impact but won't address alignment issues.


I will probably also invest in one of those foam rollers as they do look good and have borrowed a friends to do my back occasionally and so would be a worth while investment.

A lot of knee pain can be attributed to tight glutes and resultant tight ITB. Using the foam roller may help, it won't hurt.


Other than that (and yes I realise the forum is no substitue for professional help), is there and exercises that can help strengthen my knee?
It depends on what is wrong with your knee.


Alternatively can insoles ware out and become ineffective? Could it be that I need a set properly measured to my feet? Yes and yes.

Gav
-3rd July 2013, 11:56
It depends. I agree with Rudd - it depends on the underlying cause.

Last year I went through about 6 months of solid phsio. For years (since I was about 29-30) I had problems with my ankles and knees... I just ignored it and dealt with the pain. Eventually I went to a good physio and ended up doing a lot of work with them....

So I advise going to a good physio. In the end I paid.

I've only recently tried fencing again and... well I can fence now (a real night and day moment for me). For a long time I couldn't and wouldn't admit to myself what I needed to do.

Think of that as a warning tale.

J_D
-3rd July 2013, 11:58
Replace the insoles, it certainly won't hurt.

Find a good pilates instructor as well, get some one on one sessions, it's good for core and joint strength.

See Herman and take his advice!

n_freebody
-3rd July 2013, 12:00
Probably need to see the specialist I am afraid. One cause could be that when you lunge your knee passes the vertical so you are putting too much pressure on it??

As for the Elite Epee, Herman Fenton is going to be along doing sports therapy sessions and he will probably be the best person to speak to as he will have seen lots of similar over the last 20 years he has been dealing with fencing injuries.


Ok Chris, I will give that a try. I suppose a small cost of seeing an expert once now for advice is going to be much cheaper than letting it develop into much worse problems. It is likely that it could be due to overlunging or my On Gaurd being changed recently by a new coach.

Thank you both

n_freebody
-3rd July 2013, 12:03
Replace the insoles, it certainly won't hurt.

Find a good pilates instructor as well, get some one on one sessions, it's good for core and joint strength.

See Herman and take his advice!

I will see Herman and see what he suggests. I really cant afford to see a phsyio on a regular basis however but I would imagine even just a bit of advice of how to look after it is better than nothing.

As for Pilates I already do yoga does that count?

J_D
-3rd July 2013, 13:21
Yoga has a different emphasis, Pilates focuses more on core and posture. Having tried both, I found that Pilates provided a better remedial effect and better preventative techniques moving forward.

n_freebody
-15th July 2013, 15:30
I will see Herman and see what he suggests. I really cant afford to see a phsyio on a regular basis however but I would imagine even just a bit of advice of how to look after it is better than nothing.


Well I did as was suggested and have come to one conclusion and one conclusion only. Herman is a God. A God of torture and pain but a god none the less :P

cesh_fencing
-15th July 2013, 17:24
Well I did as was suggested and have come to one conclusion and one conclusion only. Herman is a God. A God of torture and pain but a god none the less :P

I am guessing it is feeling a bit better then..

Herman is amazing and why BF has not been using him for the last 15 years I cannot understand (Physio politics I suspect). Went as Sports Therapists as part of the Worlds team over 20 years ago, but not used any more. A real shame and I think our teams would have less injuries if he had been kept as part of the team/set-up.

One of the Under 11 girls I coach has not really been fencing for the last 3 weeks because of knee pains (during a growth spurt) and she saw Herman in the morning before the start of the Junior Series Finals on Saturday and ended up winning..

I cannot count the number of times Kate & I have gone to Herman broken, and come out fixed. A true magician when it come to sports injuries recovery and prevention..

purple
-17th July 2013, 14:28
Well I did as was suggested and have come to one conclusion and one conclusion only. Herman is a God. A God of torture and pain but a god none the less :P

Hah, another convert to the church of Herman. :-)