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Seth Twilight
-15th February 2004, 20:14
I was thinking, i'm going to buy my own equipment very soon, so i thought hang on two foil grips to choose from and i don't know which to choose.
My argument points are:

For Regular

- i have practiced with this grip a lot more and there is more room to stretch ur hand
- For the Thistle(Pistol) grip you need a shorter blade t
- I havn't practiced that much with thistle grip
- It can get with uncomfortable thistle

For Thistle(Pistol)

- More control
- hence more accuracy
- looks fancy
- lots of people i know prefer it

whats ur opinion people? i need to know! i dont know which one to go for

hear from u guys soon!http://www.leonpaul.com/images/forum/smil3e47888d7ef65.gif http://www.leonpaul.com/images/forum/smil3e47888d7ef65.gif http://www.leonpaul.com/images/forum/smil3e47888d7ef65.gif

Pointy stick
-15th February 2004, 21:12
There aren't two grips to choose from. There are dozens. French grips are not all identical, and pistol grips certainly aren't.

The conventional wisdom seems to be to learn on French, then move to pistol. Some people say start with a pistol grip, because that's what you'll end up using and you might as well start as you mean to go on.

It is true that all or most of the world's top fencers use some version of the pistol grip. This doesn't automatically make it ideal for the beginner. In many equipment based sports, top level kit can be more of a hindrance than a help to a beginner. (Who would learn dinghy sailing in a full race-spec boat? Rock climbing is far easier for beginners using the single rope system. A squirt boat is not an ideal first kayak. A full race spec superbike would be dangerous in inexperienced hands...)

The presumed advantage of the French grip is that it teaches you to control the blade with small finger and hand movements. The perceived disadvantage of the pistol grip is that it can "teach" the beginner to grip it tightly and fight with the fore arm, rather than the hand.

One simple advantage of the French is that later you can shorten the tang and fit a pistol grip. You can't do the reverse.

My own limited experience is that I took a lot of persuading to move from French to pistol. I then found some versions of the pistol grip almost unusable - to the extent of not enjoying my fencing at all. However, I have found one I like, and it feels completely natural now. A week or so ago, I reverted to French for a steam competition, and found it totally alien! (That's my excuse!:o )

So the answer to your question? The search for easy answers to difficult questions is why the sword was invented.

Perhaps you should experiment - but under the guidance of a coach who can make sure you're holding the grip properly. Maybe you can borrow one of each for an evening. If you go into competition, you will need two foils anyway, so whatever you choose will not define the rest of your fencing career.

If you take to it, you'll soon have 3 or 4 foils... one that needs rewiring; one that has an unexplained intermittent short circuit; one with a sticking tip; and one with a seized grub screw so you can't replace the spring.

Rdb811
-15th February 2004, 22:26
A popular topic of conversation (I think this is the third or fourth thread we've had).

As pointy says, you have to experiment, and a French grip can be shortened - borrow somebody else's pistol grip (for an evening, at least) and see how you get on.

Seth Twilight
-16th February 2004, 19:34
THX for the enlightenment guys ill remember that till nxt monday since my club is shut today cossa half term!

oh well i guess having a good coach like WJR comes with a price!

Jumpit
-17th February 2004, 00:55
For Regular

- For the Thistle(Pistol) grip you need a shorter blade t
- I havn't practiced that much with thistle grip

- It can get with uncomfortable thistle

For Thistle(Pistol)

- More control
- hence more accuracy
- looks fancy
- lots of people i know prefer it

whats ur opinion people? i need to know! i dont know which one to go for

Jumpit
-17th February 2004, 01:17
Sorry... I meant to post the following::o
__________________________________


This is a good question to ask your coach. He will let you know if you're ready for a pistol grip.

There are some interesting ideas in your post I'd like to address:

______________
For Regular

- For the Thistle(Pistol) grip you need a shorter blade t
~~Not true. The tang length is longer behind the bell guard, but the blade length in front of the bellguard remains the same.

- It can get with uncomfortable thistle
~~Not with the right thistle grip. I find french grips (regular) uncomfortable, myself.

For Thistle(Pistol)

- More control, Hence better accuracy:
~~ Not usually. The increased power of a pistol grip tends to help new fencers use far more blade movement than they need. Which, actually, decreases accuracy.

-Looks Fancy
~~ If you say so.

-Lots of people I know prefer it
Well. Yeah. Once you've mastered some good basic control over the regular grip, you'll be ready to move onto a pistol grip.

-whats ur opinion people? i need to know! i dont know which one to go for
~~ Yeah. I'd ask your coach what he thinks. He's seen ya fence and knows if a pistol grip will create problems or solve them.
______

Sorry I messed up that last post of mine, folks. Not sure what happened there.

Australian
-17th February 2004, 16:45
whats with the whole thistle thingy? :confused:

Jumpit
-17th February 2004, 17:14
I dunno. I assumed it was a colloquial term for orthapedic grip that I was unaware of.

foilerist
-17th February 2004, 22:28
i've found similar pros and cons to each grip. but i found it was easier to transfer between the two grips if the weapon was set properly. out of interest i seem to parry more to the low line with a french grip and take high parries with the pistol. have any of you found you do particular things with each grip. by the way i use pistol grips as a matter of course just for the strength thing.

Australian
-18th February 2004, 14:55
Originally posted by Jumpit
I dunno. I assumed it was a colloquial term for orthapedic grip that I was unaware of.

i've never heard it used anywhere... from littlies to a-grades...

meh :)

Jumpit
-18th February 2004, 15:55
but then again I'd never heard the term "fencing steam" before this forum either. lol.

I kinda like the term, though. Thistle. A belgium grip looks pretty thistly. :)

Blade Runner
-18th February 2004, 17:30
Pistol grip is also known as an orthopaedic grip. Some fencers in my club have problems with wrists, so prefer the pistol. On the other hand, one club colleague developed a shoulder problem with a pistol grip, as it does alter the way you control the point.

Also, the centre of balance for a foil with French is about an inch or so from the coquille on the forte. Circular parries can be initiated by very briefly taking your thumb off the grip, causing the blade to drop. With a pistol grip, there's more of a wrist action - possibly some shoulder action too?:confused:

Australian
-18th February 2004, 18:49
Originally posted by Blade Runner
With a pistol grip, there's more of a wrist action - possibly some shoulder action too?:confused:

shoulder?

*sees images of people wielding foils/epees like axes and slamming them down*

i'd say more wrist/elbow use ratehr than shoulder... but you still need to have good finger work to be any good with a pistol grip

TAJ83
-18th February 2004, 19:10
I have to say that I greatly prefer pistol grip. I find it much easier to use. I find I have more control over the point, also, I find it hard to get a strong grip on a french grip foil. I'm constantly getting disarmed when I'm using them, but maybe that's just me being poor!:(

Seth Twilight
-18th February 2004, 19:46
OOH i'v e only been in this forum a half of a week and already i'm getting loads of replies on my first thread!!!:) well anywho...

thanks all of u guys who replied, there are very good arguments here from each side and i thank many of for correcting my few *cough* :rolleyes: mistakes i'm sure i as well as many others will find this topic interesting and helpful.

one question.

if ur tang is long enough 4 the regular grip could u keep changing the grip even though the tang might be a bit long

ps. what does a belgian grip look like

Jumpit
-18th February 2004, 20:24
Naw you cant switch 'em out. The tang is too long for the pistol grip handle.

It can even be tricky to switch from one pistol grip to another pistol grip for that matter.

A Belgium grip looks sorta like a thistle.:tongue: (See attached photos)

Jumpit
-18th February 2004, 20:29
See?

Insipiens
-19th February 2004, 12:13
Originally posted by Jumpit
Naw you cant switch 'em out. The tang is too long for the pistol grip handle.

but you can cut down a french grip tang.


[/i]

It can even be tricky to switch from one pistol grip to another pistol grip for that matter.

A Belgium grip looks sorta like a thistle.:tongue: (See attached photos)

That looks like what we call an "othropaedic" grip in England.
I thought a Belgian grip was the same as a "gardere" grip in Leon Paul speak. ;)

Pointy stick
-19th February 2004, 15:58
Does anyone really use garderre grips? I've had a few seconds to swish a garderre gripped foil around and it seemed to combine the disadvantages of French and pistol, but not the advantages. 'Orrible.

Seth Twilight
-19th February 2004, 20:07
Why what does a garderre grip look like?

clockity
-20th February 2004, 09:09
Originally posted by Seth Twilight
Why what does a garderre grip look like?

Click the "Equipment" (http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/Foil_Handles.html) button at the top right of the forum... Other handles can be seen on the various suppliers' websites with all the various name combinations.

Jumpit
-24th February 2004, 15:40
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Seth Twilight
Why what does a garderre grip look like?
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I thought gardeere was a type of belt.