PDA

View Full Version : Incorrect Seeding



srb
-22nd February 2004, 19:58
Does any one know up to what point in a competition you can get an incorrect seeding changed?

I was fencing at the Hampshire Open at the weekend. The poules were called, and both myself any Leon Shah were surprised that we were in the same poule, and it was only a poule of 5. Anyway the competition started, and we got on with the fencing. However, not convinced that the seeding was right I started to look at the other poules.

It then became apparent that on paper, Leon was the 1st seed, I was the 4th seed. On top of this there was a poule of 6 that didn't have anyone ranked in the top 100. At this point I asked the organisers about this. They came back apologetic and said that they had missed me out and I had had been given a ranking of 999.

Anyway the Hampshire Open is a nice friendly competition and we just carried on, Leon beat me easily and I then went into the DE with a seeding probably significantly lower than it should of been.

The same happened at the Aldershot where the organizers missed out Sam Stockley which resulted in both Sam and Nick Payne being drawn in the same poule.

So does anyone know where the cut off point is, where the mistake cannot be corrected, and you have to fence on?

srb

Prometheus
-22nd February 2004, 20:14
As far as I'm aware no, not in BFA competition.

The pools should be in accordance to national classification.

You sometimes get a list of pool entries with their classification which you should check.

As there is no requirement for this list as far as I am aware the organisers expect you to query any mis-ranking.

I believe this is expected to take place prior to commencement of your pool.

I did it once and found out that it was correctly ranked :o



bad luck srb.

whizzkid1982
-23rd February 2004, 11:54
in theory any time up until you start fencing, so when the poules are called. once you have started it is difficult.

however organisers don't have to change things as happened at the hamlet open this year when myself and chris farren were entered as 999 seeds, which was entertaining!!

Prometheus
-23rd February 2004, 14:47
srb, check out the link If you look at section 2.18.2 (a) then at WC events a notice board must be available including the composition of the pools.

Of course the Hampshire hasn't, to my knowledge, qualified as a WC event yet I'm sure - in fact we're not likely to have too many before long!

http://www.fie.ch/download/charges/CHM (http://www.fie.ch/download/charges/CHM/en/Handbook%20of%20specifications%20WC.pdf)

Cheetara
-23rd February 2004, 16:12
Merseyside yesterday. In the womens sabre the first and third seed according to the national rankings were in the same poule as well as one fencer who's ranking is way below what it would be if she competed lots (She came second). This last one was just unlucky but not a good poule to be in.

colliebeast
-23rd February 2004, 18:47
Originally posted by Cheetara
Merseyside yesterday. In the womens sabre the first and third seed according to the national rankings were in the same poule as well as one fencer who's ranking is way below what it would be if she competed lots (She came second). This last one was just unlucky but not a good poule to be in.

the reason the 1st and 3rd ranked fencers were in the same poule, was because MOFT and (most other competitions) seed by ranking and club. This is so 2 people from the same club do not get each other in the poules (it would be a long way to go to fence the same people!) At a larger competition this is not so noticable.

nahouw
-24th February 2004, 04:04
Originally posted by srb
Does any one know up to what point in a competition you can get an incorrect seeding changed?


Only at the point in which the incorrect seeding is uncovered, and before the next round has started.

Once that round has been started, it has to proceed as announced, That is why a good competition organizer will post the preliminary pools and the results after the first round of pools.

An extremely good competition organizer, when such a mishap has occurred, AND if given enough time before a pool round has started, can make an appropriate adjustment under the rules.

Exgeordielass
-24th February 2004, 13:30
Originally posted by colliebeast
the reason the 1st and 3rd ranked fencers were in the same poule, was because MOFT and (most other competitions) seed by ranking and club. This is so 2 people from the same club do not get each other in the poules (it would be a long way to go to fence the same people!) At a larger competition this is not so noticable.

Which is great when you only belong to one Club, my son also fences at Kingston as did two others of his poule in the Hampshire on Saturday! The three from Kingston were fencing for Guildford, Wimbledon and Kingston respectively.:tongue:

srb
-24th February 2004, 13:54
This is not that uncommon. In my poule, mentioned at the start of the thread, there was another fencer from my club, who for some reason was down as his old club. So he was really happy when he found out he had the top seed and the 4th seed (from the same club) in his poule. Consequently he then got a hard DE draw.

It then gets worse at county level. Last year in the Surrey Men's Foil there were four fencers who train at Aldershot in my poule. Of which three of us train intermittently at Kingston as well.

However, on the day, think I we were fencing for Aldershot, Kingston, Crawley, and Claremont, so we didn't benefit from club separation.

srb

Boo Boo
-24th February 2004, 14:23
Club seperation has only ever caused me pain (I know that they use it in Bristol).... Since I am the only woman foilist in my Club, it doesn't help me, instead it ensures that I am very likely to get one person from each of the big clubs in my poule (at a much higher seed than I should get...)

Still, means that I need to be awake in the first round - otherwise I suffer :(

Boo
(looking to join Salle Paul or Salle Boston... ;) ).

Prometheus
-24th February 2004, 14:32
Originally posted by srb
This is not that uncommon. In my poule, mentioned at the start of the thread, there was another fencer from my club, who for some reason was down as his old club. So he was really happy when he found out he had the top seed and the 4th seed (from the same club) in his poule. Consequently he then got a hard DE draw.

It then gets worse at county level. Last year in the Surrey Men's Foil there were four fencers who train at Aldershot in my poule. Of which three of us train intermittently at Kingston as well.

However, on the day, think I we were fencing for Aldershot, Kingston, Crawley, and Claremont, so we didn't benefit from club separation.

srb

So not only hamstrung by your talent but also by your club mates?;)

Rdb811
-24th February 2004, 16:27
The Crawley fencer (Dr Q) was in fact fencing for Streatham, but was the only one to beat srb, who tonked his two club mates, then won all his second round fights, including Dr Q again. So much good it did them.

The three of them then proceded to give me serious stress by not being au fait with the rules for ranking after the poules.

srb
-24th February 2004, 17:08
Originally posted by Rdb811
then won all his second round fights, including Dr Q again. So much good it did them.


Ah, so it finally goes on record that srb has actually managed to beat Dr Q in a competition....

....unfortunately never in a DE. In fact srb lost in the DE to Dr Q later that very day.

The serious stress I think was caused by number of victories versus indicator. If I remember rightly srb and Dr Q had better indicator than Chris Howser, but Chris had been in a bigger poule so had one more victory. However, I'm still convinced that it was just Rbd811 trying to stage srb's defeat against Dr Q yet again.

In the afternoon srb then hopped clubs and went on to fence in the team competition for Kingston. Chris also hopped clubs, and fenced for Streatham as a replacement for Dr Q.

So as I said, at county level it just gets worse.

srb

Rdb811
-24th February 2004, 18:20
Tell me about it - at the Surrey Epee this year we had Neale Thomas, Chris Howser, Howard West, aao, Tim Buzwell, plus a collection of veterans who knew what they were doing and some whizz kids (in a field of 20) - the average qualiy of fencer was much higher than any Open.t

Exgeordielass
-25th February 2004, 09:46
Originally posted by Rdb811
Tell me about it - at the Surrey Epee this year we had Neale Thomas, Chris Howser, Howard West, aao, Tim Buzwell, plus a collection of veterans who knew what they were doing and some whizz kids (in a field of 20) - the average qualiy of fencer was much higher than any Open.t

And much higher in both the epee and sabre than the South East competition had been in January.

Aoife
-28th February 2004, 11:37
Few newbie questions...

(boy, shouldn't still be asking these after 15 months!)

1. how do they sort poules? I thought it was just split up by age, then group into poules.

2. How do you get a seeding? You need to be good, right? (and, presumably, go to a lot of comps).

3. Why is there club seperation? I've fought against the only other BFA member in my club (ahhh.... but what happens if you're not registered with a club? Neither of us are, as we technically have no club and no coach *plays violin of sorrow*)

doobarz
-28th February 2004, 13:36
Originally posted by Aoife
1. how do they sort poules? I thought it was just split up by age, then group into poules.

The competition may have age group restrictions, but in an open, you are all grouped together.



2. How do you get a seeding? You need to be good, right? (and, presumably, go to a lot of comps).

Seeding is taken from National ranking for an open, I guess from the LPJS ranking for LPJS comps, and international ranking for A Grades. Satillite tournaments have there own formula, but yes, winning competitions will improve your ranking, which will improve your seeding at future events.


3. Why is there club seperation? I've fought against the only other BFA member in my club (ahhh.... but what happens if you're not registered with a club? Neither of us are, as we technically have no club and no coach *plays violin of sorrow*)

The club you enter under will be used for seperation, so you don't have to fence your potential team mates in a poule.

Aoife
-29th February 2004, 20:34
The club you enter under will be used for seperation,

So, what if you don't enter under a club? What if you just put 'unattached' or whatever it is I have to put (don't have a proper club).



And what does a higher seeding do for you? (past being able to go 'I'm yadda yadda seed' and look smug?) Does it give you any advantages in opens?


Seeding is taken from National ranking for an open, I guess from the LPJS ranking for LPJS comps, and international ranking for A Grades. Satillite tournaments have there own formula, but yes, winning competitions will improve your ranking, which will improve your seeding at future events.

So, you're monitored on how you do in all your opens and they adjust your seeding each time?

Mantis
-29th February 2004, 20:54
Originally posted by Aoife
So, what if you don't enter under a club? What if you just put 'unattached' or whatever it is I have to put (don't have a proper club).

The only issue with regards clubs is that the poules should avoid having more than one person from each club if possible, and as few as possible otherwise. If you are unattached this does not affect it.


And what does a higher seeding do for you? (past being able to go 'I'm yadda yadda seed' and look smug?) Does it give you any advantages in opens?

My understanding is that the poules would be arranged so that there is one 'top' seed, one 'not-so-top' seed, etc, and a number of unranked fencers in each. This avoids having one poule with all the strong fencers and another full of unranked fencers, as sometimes happens at the BUSA individuals.


So, you're monitored on how you do in all your opens and they adjust your seeding each time?

Yes, if you finish in the top 3/4 or the last 64 (whichever is smaller) you will get ranking points. The tables are here. (http://www.britishfencing.com/ranking_lists.html)

PM1
-29th February 2004, 21:10
...and your scores will be added IF and ONLY if you have expressed an interest in being added to the ranking lists (info on the appropriate sites).

Go for it, girl!!

Mantis
-29th February 2004, 21:18
Originally posted by PM1
...and your scores will be added IF and ONLY if you have expressed an interest in being added to the ranking lists (info on the appropriate sites).

Really? I never asked and I appeared, not very high up, admittedly.

Rdb811
-29th February 2004, 21:46
The seeding works on a snake -

1 8 9 16 17 etc
2 7 10 15
3 6 11 14
4 5 12 13

so that each pool is of even strength, and then fencers are switched (to the next lower pool from memory) to minimise fencers from the same club meeting (or country if an international - it was not unknown for some of these encounters to be subject to 'team orders').

Obviously it helps (but not that much) not to have another strong fencer in the pool so that you end up down the seeding for the DE - if you lose a fight more in the DE then you are further down the list when you get knocked out.

It's the sort of thing the top flight would argue about.

PM1
-29th February 2004, 21:53
What a lucky person you are then, Mantis - and a senior at that...cadet and junior mens epee work on a "please count me in"bais, as did cadet foil, and I believe the others do as well.

But I can be wrong. So very wrong......:confused:

Aoife
-29th February 2004, 22:02
So then... cadet and junior- what's the difference?


Do only the opens listed in the rankings count towards points?

(British Open, Essex Open, Welsh Open, Bristol Open, and Slough Open... then the internationals).


Eek! I've fought the second seed! :eek:




(info on the appropriate sites).

Urm... can't find appropriate sites :shrug: Any hints?

doobarz
-29th February 2004, 22:15
Cadet = Under 16
Junior = U20

All the opens count - see the BFA calender for more details.

PM1
-1st March 2004, 07:21
Cadet covers all under 17 (and over 13) on Jan 1st of the season being competed in, Junior is all etc etc under 20 blh blah.

Sites - go into BFA web site, click on rankings, and if you follow weapon and age group/sex, you SHOULD find the relevant info. Most of the weapons/groups are well organised now, or have a name to follow up.

For the serious cadet/junior fencer, there are certain nominated events for that age group (seem to be differnt in each weapon and sometimes differ year on year), tho all open events count for senior rankings: you can be on all 3 age group rankings if you are young enough.

Some foreigns you can only go to if selected by the weapon cmmitte, but many are truelu "open". Check out the Nahouw link on BFA - jolly good it is, too.

Hope this helps.

:grin:

pinkelephant
-1st March 2004, 11:52
You don't have to be over 13 for Cadet - you do for Junior.

Cadet = U17 and Junior = U20 on ist January of the season concerned.

PM1
-1st March 2004, 21:09
sorry boss......:(, but the rest is correct....yes???:confused:

Aoife
-4th March 2004, 14:14
:shrug:

I'm still very confused about where to go... :(

I've found this site (http://www.foilcommittee.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/foilcommittee.html) but nothing on there seems to be of use.

Help!

Boo Boo
-4th March 2004, 16:14
Aoife,

For juniors (i.e. "Under 20s") look at: http://www.foilcommittee.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Junior_rules_etc/Junior%20%20cadet%20women%20%20information%202003% 20%204%20season.htm and
http://www.foilcommittee.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/international-rules/Junior_scheme%20_for_Sword_2003-2004vers-2-12-6-03.htm

For seniors look at:
http://www.foilcommittee.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/international-rules/SENIOr-ranking-2003-4-vers2.htm

Current junior WF rankings appear to have been "reset" for the next season (http://www.foilcommittee.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/rankings/lad_jun_rank.htm). These appear to be rankings for the start of the 2004/2005 season.

The currentish (they are correct for 01/02/04 - not 09/02/04, as the list says, since they have not been updated to include Slough...) senior WF rankings are at http://www.foilcommittee.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/rankings/lad_sen_rank_short.htm

The senior ranking list (at least when it is updated to 01/03/04) will be used to seed your poules and to work out the NIF (strength) for the Invicta Open. This NIF will be used to work out how many points you get when you finish in the top 75% :)

Boo
(just back from holiday)