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Rhubarb
-23rd February 2004, 13:35
Just heard at MOFT that the FIE programme of 'rationalising the calendar has resulted in GB losing its 3 current senior world cup events, the corble sabre(mens individual) Ipswich Cup epee(women's individual) and Epee Club Trophy( Men's individual). The Eden cup is safe as its Junior world cup. The women sabreurs will be whooping it up however, as they have been given a home 'A' grade, the only domestic world cup senior event we now have, as yet unnamed and without a venue.

aao
-23rd February 2004, 14:37
no suprise if its true, the birtish A-grades aren't upto scratch when compared to their foreign counterparts (poorly located venue, lack of tv, small entry) its a great shame but without the BFA really pushing to keep any of them and with the number of European A-grades dropping to 6 what can you do.
I just feel sorry for the domestic fencers who now won't be able to get a taste of what the top level of world fencing is like, because they aren't in the top 8/10 of the rankings, and won't ever realistically be that high. Before I switched to fencing for another country the London\glasgow was always a good target to aim for during the season and I know alot of people still base their seasons around trying to qualify for the domestic international.

shame :(

tigger
-23rd February 2004, 21:19
I agree aao. A disaster for GB fencing, but not a surprise. Given that the FIE were planning to cut European A grades, this years and last years Corble was a suicide note.

Lucan
-23rd February 2004, 23:24
Do the European A-grades have qualifiers on the day before? Also which are the European A-grades (sabre)?

nahouw
-24th February 2004, 04:13
I had heard of the new criteria for the calendar, but I hadn't heard of any decisions as of yet.

GB, in the scheme of the many European competitions, I would have expected to be cut under the new criteria.

What other details have been heard?? I guess that when the scheduling committee meets at Junior Worlds, we will all soon know anyway.

michel
-24th February 2004, 07:48
Every country in the world would be able to only organize 4 seniors A-Grades in a season.

So, for example, France who organized a Senior A-Grade in each weapon (ME Paris Souvenir Monal, MF Paris CIP, MS Nancy, WE Saint Maur, WF Paris or Marseille Challenge Jeanty, WS Orleans) will only organize during season 2004/2005 4 of these 6 tournaments as a A-Grade. So in the planned calender (we can see it on FIE website), MS Nancy and WF Souvenir Jeanty disappear.

No restriction for Junior A-Grade.

aao
-24th February 2004, 10:47
the draft tournament schedule for 2004/5 can be found here:
http://www.fie.ch/download/letters/2004/info/05/en/Projet%20de%20calendrier-04-05.pdf

got to say that looking at the mens epee one I am very suprised by the decisions that the FIE have made, as well as London going, Europe has also lost Budapest!, Barcelona (one of the biggest comps on the circuit), Lisbon, and Innsbruck. Heinheim and Paris and Legano (Italy) remain but so oddly do Stockholm, Tallin and very oddly Berne??! can't quite work out the reasons for this as the last 3 certainly aren't the biggest comps on the tour and didn't offer the best facilities, media coverage or to be honest biggest/nicest cities.
can imagine that there are some very pissed European federations out there at the moment. especially bearing in mind that iran, kuwait and qatar have managed to retain their status! (3 comps in the middle east? why???)

Epeecurean
-24th February 2004, 15:26
Thanks for the calendar. This was pre-ordained I'm afraid. As you know, the Leipzig Congress made the decision to reduce the number of WCs from 20-odd (depending on weapon) to 14. By my count of the men's epee WCs/GPs....

Current New
--------- -----
GP 6 5
WC 14 9
-----------------------------
Total 20 14

But the FIE also made the decision to distribute the WCs and GPs like so:

Grand Prix (+team events)
Europe 2, Americas 1, Asia 1, Africa 1

World Cups
Europe 4, Americas 2, Asia 2, Africa 1

...which meant a cut in European events from 12 to 6 and keeping the likes of Kuwait, Qatar and Tehran (considered Asia, & for Europeans not so far as Sydney, Korea, etc.) and Jakar and Tunisia (Africa). This is supposedly to create fewer higher profile events and also to encourage inter-continental participation (a big thing with the IOC).

Why keep smallish Talinn and Berne and drop prestigious Barcelona and Budapest? I suspect they considered WC allocation across the whole range of weapons and countries and there was some intense lobbying. So Hungary decided to cede ME, but still kept MF, MS and WS. Saber of course being the most important weapon to the Hungarians. For Estonia, Switzerland and Sweden epee is their main event so naturally they didn't want to lose those. The UK didn't fare so well, losing out WE ME MS but only getting WS.

aao
-24th February 2004, 16:40
hmm what you say makes sense, but then again I also thought that they were after trying to make the new slimmed down A-grade circuit the equivilantg of the tennis masters series, using the best venues with the most tv press exposure.
On that basis losing Barcelona and Lisbon in mens epee doesn't make too much sense, fair enough stockholm is in a nice (if small) venue but tallins venue is particualrily unapealing when compared to Barcelona (and while the top 6 or 7 estonians are very good at epee there really isn't much strength in depth in either estonia or switzerland) . As for Bern haven';t been there but it is by all accounts a smallish venue.

If the Fie are really serious about making fencing more appealing to the public the above should have had some role in their decisions. Also 3 comps in the middle east can be for no other reason than purely financial as, while they have made great strides none of the coutries are 'power houses' of fencing.

anyway

Rhubarb
-24th February 2004, 16:56
\i think we are seing here M.Roch's idea of internationalising fencing for the approval of the IOC.By running a circuit like this he demonstrates that fencing has cured itself of being a 'european sport' and is now truly international with a calendar that encompasses all continents and lots of new federations. the keen observer of the FIE web-site will note these young, up and coming fencing nations cancelling their events, (possibly due to only having 5 fencers)for various reasons.

but hey, you only have to check the list of ref's for the olympic games to realise that they are taking almost no-one who ref's epee world cup in Europe. The plan ,i think is to have the egyptian, Kuwaiti or the guy from Iran do the epee. Messrs Kolobkov and Jeannet should beware. I'm considering going to Athens to spectate as the arguments in the men's epee should be of Olympic proportions

Threestain
-25th February 2004, 13:16
Its a shame we lost the ME/WE events as they finally had a venue worthy of an A-grade within spitting distance of the world's largest airport. And also the venue got some really good reviews from the women this year - as well as having good facilities it looks pretty. I just hope they can manage to put the WS event there.

Apparently the World Cups held in the middle east are actually pretty good - extremely well funded and quite well run - and frankly I'm all for utilising willing rich countries! (surely makes more sense than cash strapped eastern european ones?).

Also epeecurean seems dead right - its not just ME that counts unfortunately Alp, there are six weapons and some countries excel in other ones too! :)

Prometheus
-25th February 2004, 13:34
Why keep smallish Talinn and Berne and drop prestigious Barcelona and Budapest? I suspect they considered WC allocation across the whole range of weapons and countries and there was some intense lobbying. So Hungary decided to cede ME, but still kept MF, MS and WS. Saber of course being the most important weapon to the Hungarians. For Estonia, Switzerland and Sweden epee is their main event so naturally they didn't want to lose those. The UK didn't fare so well, losing out WE ME MS but only getting WS.

On that basis then we must appear rather better at WS than others (countries and weapons).

Rdb811
-25th February 2004, 23:20
That's probably true, all things considered.

Threestain
-26th February 2004, 10:19
Possible but seeing as results in Men's Foil have been equally good in recent years by that extension.

Moreover I would say that its the countries who have traditional roots and history in certain weapons that have lobbied hard for some and not others. The rest of us get the leftovers

aao
-26th February 2004, 10:45
maybe we should have a goodbye London A-grade party?? sometime around Lunch time on Sunday should do nicely after the last GBR fencer has bowed out in the 32 ;) (of course the Turkish contingent might on the evidence of last year be ready for a party late afternoon on saturday! :dizzy: )

Prometheus
-26th February 2004, 10:45
It certainly is (was now) peculiar that we hold senior A-grades in the weapons that are, arguably, the weaker one domestically.

I would say we quite fortunate to get the one A-grade.

Perhaps the Satellite circuit will take on a surge of popularity - was that the FIE plan do you think?

Epeecurean
-26th February 2004, 12:06
Yeah I think 3Stain is right in saying that we just got the leftovers. John Ramsay's e-mail on the subject said:

"I stress that the BFA had no opportunity to make a case for these events and this is entirely a decision made unilaterally by the FIE without any input from the BFA."

So the question is, did the other countries have opportunity to lobby the FIE or was it unnecessary because their interests are already well-represented in the FIE executive committee (or whatever the FIE decision-making body is called).

Oh well, c'est la vie, and I guess it's no use grousing about it now. It would be nice if they combined the WE/ME and made it at least a Satellite A. The venue in Rickmansworth is nice and it would be good to have a proper London-based event which attracts some 2nd tier fencers from N. Europe.

aao, o halde bir sise Yeni Raki getiririm, iceriz. Senden baska birisi gelecek mi? Yoksa sen tek basina mi TC bayragini tasiyacaksin?

aao
-26th February 2004, 13:05
ooooh good grief I'm impressed now! I would reply in turkish and everything but I suspect It wouldn't be too much use to the rest of the forum (plus my turkish spelling is somewhat ropier than epeecureans on the evidence of the last post!)

I think a celebratory/consolitary bottle of Raki may be no bad thing at all! ;) and yes alas I shall be the entirety of team Turkiye :( but I always feel it quality not quantity that counts :) (so on that basis what I'm doing there is a complete mystery! :rolleyes:)

Will you be competing for you fine country or are your lot sending a full contingent (this is of course provided I've now guessed correctly who you are!)

p.s. the FIE political??? surely not :rolleyes: ;)

Epeecurean
-26th February 2004, 14:11
No I can't compete this year, but I'll be there to cheer you on.

En buyuk Turkiye! Baska buyuk yok!

Good luck,
Epeecurean

aao
-26th February 2004, 15:20
Excellent glad you'll be down to cheer us all on :) and well with support like this how can i possibly fail ;)
(although come early just in case!)

shame you won't be fencing though!

tigger
-27th February 2004, 09:33
Quote epeecurean - Yeah I think 3Stain is right in saying that we just got the leftovers. John Ramsay's e-mail on the subject said:

"I stress that the BFA had no opportunity to make a case for these events and this is entirely a decision made unilaterally by the FIE without any input from the BFA."

I think you should make your case for the event each time you organise it - A fantastic venue, prizes/prize money, good presentation, a bit of show biz and at least local TV interest would maybe have made a better case for the Corble at least? I've no idea about the epee ones I'm afraid...

aao
-27th February 2004, 10:04
agree entirely with tigger, we cannot be suprised when the fie pulls our domestic a-grades when for years the events have been poorly located and organised (especially in terms of publicity) when compared to some of the their foreing counterparts. I've popped into the corble a few times and its venue at Brunel uni was a complete joke by international standards as was the Ipswich. The only one of the 3 which was vaguely comparable was the Glasgow/london epee A-grade which used to be quite good up in scotland but since it moved back down to london has gone down hill.
I understand the BFA's postion on this and i know there;s no pit of gold to pay for big events, but surely if we could have forseen this coming then we should have sunk our efforts (and finances) into promoting one of our events to have a fighting chance of keeping it?

Rdb811
-29th February 2004, 16:54
Originally posted by aao
Brunel uni was a complete joke

A venue so bad that I would have been moaned at for using it for a club cometition.

Neo
-13th May 2004, 19:08
I just went poopy...

:spearhors