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Andy
-10th September 2011, 11:26
Mens
James Cooke and Sam Weale have both qualified for the Mens Final tomorrow 11/9/11

Semi A
James had a good fence, and a solid swim for him and qualified comfortably at the head of his group.
Semi B
Sam qualified 7th in his group, Nic Woodbridge had a disapointing fence, and dispite his great swim, was too far behind to catch up in the combined, with a time of 11:19 it could well have been all about the shoot.
Semi C
Robbie Flack had a hard day at the office, with just 12 wins in the fence, and a swim of 2:09 and a combined at 11:04, it wasn't enough to qualify him.

Womens
All 4 women qualified for the final

Semi A
Freyja Prentice qualified 5th despite her 17th positions in both the fence and swim.
Katy Burke had a great swim 2:14 which was 4th in her group which was enough to allow her to qualify in 14th position
Semi B
In the other semi, again both Brits qualified,
Mhairi Spence with a good fence and swim qualified 5th in the group, and
Heather Fell had a good swim and combined to qualify her in 18th

Womens Final

So far just the Fence results are in,
Mhairi is placed 4th
Freyja is 26th
Katy 30th
Heather 33rd

The swim is a good event for GBR with Mhairi, Katy and Heather all loving the pool
The Ride comes after the Swim, then finally the combined Run and Shoot

Full Results are available here
http://www.pentathlon.org/component/uipm/results/pentathlon/740-uipm-senior-world-championships
some skills with the dropdowns are required, and the team results are a bit suspect at the moment, but I believe we're well placed towards the top of the table with some strong events coming up.

A.

Andy
-10th September 2011, 11:56
Swim results are in:
5th Katy 2:13:06
8th Mhairi 2:15:71
9th Heather 2:15:79
26th Freyja 2:22:34

Overall standings
3rd Mhairi
17th Katy
27th Heather
29th Freyja

Andy
-10th September 2011, 14:00
Check out the (FREE) Live TV feed available here
http://pentathlon.org/media-centre/pentathlontv

Andy
-10th September 2011, 14:37
After the Ride (I think)

4th Mhairi
12th Katy
?? Heather
25 Freyja

Andy
-10th September 2011, 15:11
22 Heather

Andy
-10th September 2011, 16:46
Final Results - Women
8th Mhairi Spence
10th Katy Burke
16th Freyja Prentice
27th Heather Fell

Womens Team
I'm not 100% sure but I think we came 4th in the team.

Well done to all the GBR Women, some great individual performances, and some disappointments too.

Andy
-11th September 2011, 19:20
Final Results - Men
12th Sam Weale
35th James Cooke - With an awesome Swim of 1:55:47

Here are the top 6 results!
1 MOISEEV, Andrei RUS 5964 1024 1 26 1340 6 2:01.89 1180 4 72.90 2420 23 10:45.33
2 LESUN, Aleksander RUS 5944 976 2 24 1296 17 2:05.60 1140 8 74.20 2532 11 10:17.20
3 MAROSI, Adam HUN 5924 832 15 18 1332 7 2:02.39 1200 1 74.50 2560 4 10:10.20
4 FROLOV, Ilia RUS 5908 952 3 23 1292 19 2:05.95 1100 23 72.50 2564 3 10:09.30
5 KASZA, Robert HUN 5820 952 3 23 1332 8 2:02.49 1140 10 69.60 2396 28 10:51.50
6 DEMETER, Bence HUN 5816 784 23 16 1328 9 2:02.77 1180 2 80.30 2524 12 10:19.90

Interesting!!!

cesh_fencing
-11th September 2011, 20:12
Final Results - Men
35th James Cooke - With an awesome Swim of 1:55:47

Unfortunately if you are 300 points behind the leaders after the fence you are going to have difficulties getting a top result, however fast your swim is.

4 out of the top 5 overall were 1st, 2nd and =3rd in the fence, kind of shows where work needs to be done.. Possibly more pentathletes at future opens???

Andy
-11th September 2011, 22:19
Unfortunately if you are 300 points behind the leaders after the fence you are going to have difficulties getting a top result, however fast your swim is.

4 out of the top 5 overall were 1st, 2nd and =3rd in the fence, kind of shows where work needs to be done.. Possibly more pentathletes at future opens???

Dropping 500 points in the Ride also didn't help. Pentathlon is still very much a 5 dicipline sport, and being good at all 5 really helps.

cesh_fencing
-11th September 2011, 23:47
Dropping 500 points in the Ride also didn't help. Pentathlon is still very much a 5 dicipline sport, and being good at all 5 really helps.

I agree, however add those 500 points on and he was still mid-field..

Apart from Mhairi, fencing for all the others seems to the their weakest events with results rarely even over 800 points in big finals (Worlds for example), which is under 50% wins and as it is usually the first event so it makes a mountain to climb to catch up.

I know a 1.55 swim is amazing, however if one extra hours training was switched per week from swimming to fencing, it may lose a couple of seconds on the swim, worth 20 odd points but by gaining even one extra fencing win and that is over 20 points, get 2 and that is over 40.. Also the people you beat miss out on racking up points as a bonus.

I thinks GB Pentathlon really needs to up the standard of the fencing part of the squad as on the occassion of a 'better than usual fence' the athletes are usually in the top half dozen, however after a normal fencing result they are down in mid-field...

Not really sure whay this has not been noticed in the past??

PS I used to do Pentathlon and coach lots of the younger pentathletes and a good solid fence (i.e 900 points or more) is the base required for the rest of the event IMHO. Score 800 or below and you are at a huge disadvantage.

miraberis
-12th September 2011, 00:02
This discussion is quite interesting for someone like me who knows not very much about pentathlon. Carry on guys!

Lee Spiers
-12th September 2011, 07:25
This discussion is quite interesting for someone like me who knows not very much about pentathlon. Carry on guys!


3 MAROSI, Adam HUN -

Ace fencer, fenced him a few times in hungary

Andy
-12th September 2011, 11:22
The problem with the Fence and the Ride, is that there is a greater element of unpredictability, If you train for a swim, they arenít really going to do anything funky with the pool, and even if itís a shallow (generally a slower time) pool, compared with a quicker (generally deeper) itís the same for all the athletes, the Run again is the same for all. The Shoot is on a stationary target.

However the Ride is with an unfamiliar horse, and if you are going 2nd, someone may have already upset it somewhere round the course, or it may be thinking about itís tea, and not about the fences.

The Fence is also as we all know hitting a moving hostile target before it hits us, and itís fine to say we need to win 66-75% of the matches to have a good chance of a medal, but the other chap is also going for his hits too. Also if we are avid forum readers you will know that Epee is one of those sports where a complete unknown pops up and wins something like Dmitr Bogdan in Group B, ranked 173 wins the fencing (=1), and as we all know, 1 hour a week more in the fence isnít going to make you a world class fencer, and some of these guys are! Itís a difficult one, Iím sure that the run coaches will be saying they need to run more, and the swim coaches, need to swim more, and the ride coaches say they need to ride more...
But this is the case in all multi-sport events, i.e. Jess Enis won the Silver in the World Championships recently, with 2 of her 5 events below her usual standards, and her Javelin score being way behind the top throws (being the third event she lost potential points in) Multi Sports are hard, thatís why we donít all compete at MP, we canít all ride, or swim, or run or shoot...

I think that James was disappointed with his fence, and felt that he could have / should have won more hits (interview on Pentathlon.Org) but that said, being mid table in the final of the world championships is not what heís aiming for, he came 9th at the World Cup Final just before his 4th at the Euroís this year, so heís capable of being around the medals, at the top events.

miraberis
-12th September 2011, 11:53
I guess all the individual coaches think their event needs more attention.
I would have thought it was the job of the actual pentathlon coaches to have the final word, though.
How much time do the top pentathletes spend on fencing training?

cesh_fencing
-12th September 2011, 12:10
1 hour a week more in the fence isn’t going to make you a world class fencer, and some of these guys are!

But the key to multi-sport events is to work and improve on your weakest event and simply maintain the events you are already really competitive as the improvements to your score which you are less proficient in will be much more than an event you are alreay near the top and the just get a bit better (with the way Pent is scored).

I agree there is a balance, however any event with an obvious weakness needs working on.

An extra hours quality fencing training/top class lesson does make a huge difference to a pentathletes fence.

A few years back I had one of the senior girls team who was based in Bath who got dropped due to her consistanly failing in the fence, scoring 600, 700 at several world cup events in a row. She came home one summer, had possibly 6 1hr lessons over the summer and the following season started getting 900+ scores in the fence, which got her back in the team and then came 3rd at the British Epee Champs the next July.. Not much many hours work, but the work was on her weak event and really paid off.

Unlike DEs in fencing where you can get random draws and get knocked out early or get a nice way through, the 1 hit poule unique is a very good indicator of where fencing levels are, so it is a great indicator of how competitive someone is in the event, unlike the show jumping which in many cases is just the luck of which nag you get...

In terms of me telling my young fencers who do pentathlon that they need to do more fencing it is often the opposite, the ones which are good at fencing, I actually have been pushing to spend more time on other events to bring up their overall scores...

Tubby
-12th September 2011, 12:17
I'm with Chris on this. Particularly as what you add to yours on the fence you take away from others.

PM1
-13th September 2011, 11:16
My Richard is a talent coach in Yorkshire Pent, and you'd expect him to agree with the "more fence training" argument, but I do think you are all correct - individual lessons, just a few, would make a significant difference, I'd guess.

cesh_fencing
-14th September 2011, 02:21
My Richard is a talent coach in Yorkshire Pent, and you'd expect him to agree with the "more fence training" argument, but I do think you are all correct - individual lessons, just a few, would make a significant difference, I'd guess.

As PM1 has pointed at. If is not just fencing training, such as throw them on a pistes against other pentathletes, it is decent quality lessons, sorting out flaws in technique (which many have) that is needed.

Often Pentathlon coaches try to coach all the diciplines, however often they are not a master of all 5 and very rarely the best epee coaches around.

andylymn
-14th September 2011, 09:07
Yes agree with the talent pathway in that you have to work on weaknesses in particular disciplines. It does however, depend on age and level of development though. We have to assume here a certain level of competence. The weighting of the swimming event does favour specialist swimmers, probably designed from the biathlon bit with the younger ones. There certainly is a need for quality training all round. Disagree a bit with the sentiments on fencing especially the 1 hit format. I know a few specialist fencers who don't like this format initially because they like to work out the oponents style etc. However, like most sports once you're on the circuit you will get to know what the opposition is like.

Quality, conditioning and correct preparation are more important in the long run than being good at say 3 disciplines and struggling at 2. Competency at all 5 is ideal but for some it is a bit of fun and extra experience of competition and harder training !!!

AELLA
-14th September 2011, 10:46
I don't know much about Pentathlon or it's personalities, but I have two questions


How do the British Pentathletes compare as fencers to the other fencers in the country?


Why isn’t Moiseev on the Russian Team, when he won the European Championships in 2011, and came second in the World Cup #2 in Italy, he also won the Olympics in 2008 & Won the European Championships in 2008. It seems a hard world in the Russian Squad.

cesh_fencing
-14th September 2011, 20:43
Disagree a bit with the sentiments on fencing especially the 1 hit format. I know a few specialist fencers who don't like this format initially because they like to work out the oponents style etc.!!!

Andy - Not sure what you actually disagee on???

Pentathlon fencing is a specialist form of fencing.

Working out opponents is much more to do with observation of previous fights people have had on the day.

Once on the piste you have to adapt your plan and fence in an 'open eye' way so that you are able to react to whatever is thrown at you. Usually you should have a plan formulated generally however...

Many Epeeists hate 1 hit as it does not allow them to work opponents out over several hits, however in Pentathlon events, I probably used to know exactly what I was going to do on 90% of my opponents before I got on the piste to fence them, due to technical flaws that were obvious to a more experienced fencer from their previous fights against other opponents. Or set plans I had for high percentage hits in certain circumstances..

The key is to be technically correct, this is where extra, good quality, lessons are the key, and the right mindset on the day of events..

cesh_fencing
-14th September 2011, 20:49
How do the British Pentathletes compare as fencers to the other fencers in the country?

Why isn’t Moiseev on the Russian Team, when he won the European Championships in 2011, and came second in the World Cup #2 in Italy, he also won the Olympics in 2008 & Won the European Championships in 2008. It seems a hard world in the Russian Squad.


The 2 questions

1- On the mens side not very well, and as GBR is weak as a fencing nation that does not bode well for our male pentathletes in the fence. On the Girls side Mhairi Spence is a pretty good fencer and has competed at Commonwealths for fencing. The other girls are not so consistant.

A few years back Kate Allenby won the Epee Nationals and Sarah Landridge came 3rd in the same year, I would be surprised if the current girls would be anywhere near that level. Though they do surprise people sometimes.

2 - No idea... If you think of BF randomness on selection, who has an idea of what Russia does. One thought is that the imjury levels in Pent are pretty high, and many athletes will have spells out due to injuries.