PDA

View Full Version : Parts of the Fencer that it is Vital to Protect



gbm
-10th March 2004, 17:21
Do think you could never agree with anything the FIE say? :o

From the rules:


3.2. PARTS OF THE FENCER THAT IT IS VITAL TO PROTECT

Extract from the Minutes of the Medical Committee of the FIE
After discussion the Medical Committee considers that the following ought to be considered as ‘parts that it is vital to protect’.
— Above
The plastron, which is included in the jacket, must protect the neck under the bib (overlapping with this latter), the two hollows above and below the collar bone, the region surrounding the armpit of the sword arm, and that covering the heart.
— Below
Protection included in the trousers must cover the abdomen, the two inguinal regions, and the genital organs (by means of a protective cup).


Do any breeches or anything include such protection, or do Leon Paul sell such a device (not that I'm good enough to reach an FIE competition and thus really require one). I find the Leon Paul breeches have rather the reverse effect, and are rather tightly cut at best, and I'm sure some other people have said that too.
I don't even know what an inguinal region is. :)

sabretom
-10th March 2004, 19:40
The inguinal region is your groin muscle and the inside of the top of your leg :) personally i think the leon paul jackets should come with extra padding on the elbows because a whack on the funny bone is very painful! If such jackets exsist could someone tell me where to get them?!? cheers

Petch66
-10th March 2004, 20:43
all-star sell elbow pad type things which is the closest i've seen to elbow padding.

Rdb811
-10th March 2004, 21:33
And vitial bits of kit for sabre (even if nobody uses them - I've heard nasty stories of six months off with ringing elbow) , although these days I rely on elbow suppourt tube.

oddball
-11th March 2004, 11:38
Yup ,and an epee hit on a bony collarbone by a hefty epeeist tends to kill your arm for a few hits. Perhaps extra padding?

PKT
-14th March 2004, 06:42
Originally posted by goodbadandme
... (not that I'm good enough to reach an FIE competition and thus really require one). ... \


From:
http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10313

Lemberg [also of Vancouver, BC, Canada]
Member

When you're not happy about fencing making news :(

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yesterday, during the Junior Games (equivalent of American JOs) in Kharkov, Ukraine, a 17 year old foilist died after having his lung punctured with a broken foil blade ........ The whole fencing tournament has been cancelled. Those who can read Russian, here's the link: http://www.ictv.ua/ru/content/publi...ehgkrjwhgj.html
According to teh article, DT concluded that all safety measures have been taken, but those are Ukrainian standards....

You don't have to be good to be on the receiving end of a broken blade, just unlucky and unprotected.

nowadays, i don't fence without my elbow guard...i've also velcroed and taped a piece of leather oon my glove over my knuckles. in all these years of getting my knuckles rapped, i've finally smarten up, a bit late, i know...

PK

gbm
-14th March 2004, 20:06
I always always wear my 350N plastron as well as my 350N jacket. I don't usually wear my breeches unless I'm at a competition though...

PKT
-15th March 2004, 04:23
Originally posted by goodbadandme
I always always wear my 350N plastron as well as my 350N jacket. I don't usually wear my breeches unless I'm at a competition though...

i followed that practice till i asked myself
1. why am i not wearing my breeches, now that i've bought them?
2. my closet space doesn't need the protection of my 800N breeches; my family jewels and legs do.
3. if i don't wear my breeches, then they'll stay white while my jacket get grayer...
4. i might as well get used to wearing them, it is afterall practice, so practice getting used to wearing them, like getting used to wearing knee socks...

i hope this reasoning sounds logical to you.

pk

gbm
-15th March 2004, 10:06
I'd need to buy some more socks then, since I fence 5 times a week.

slimrbp
-15th March 2004, 11:48
Allstar do FIE 800N undershorts.

http://www.allstar-usa.com/cgi-bin/shopallstar3.pl?page=1&build=3&cat=clothes&sub=SHG

They sell them on the UK site also but no photo.

randomsabreur
-16th March 2004, 11:22
Currently have 2 800N jackets and 1 non marked jacket. Currently only 1 pair of breeches coz old pair inhibited movement rather impressively.

Breeches will wear out too fast if worn and washed too often! Worse they might shrink.
At sabre trackies are sometimes better against a low hit than stretch breeches, very much miss my old budget kevlar pair but the inability to move was getting ridiculous

PKT
-16th March 2004, 18:27
Originally posted by randomsabreur
... 1 pair of breeches coz old pair inhibited movement rather impressively.

... very much miss my old budget kevlar pair but the inability to move was getting ridiculous


we've grown a bit lately, haven't we?

ditto for me... that said, i'll still stay with my N800 breeches during practice.

PK

PKT
-16th March 2004, 18:35
Originally posted by goodbadandme
I'd need to buy some more socks then, since I fence 5 times a week.

in one of the world championships finals - forgot which - the president of the FIE was watching, seated in front of the hoi polloi.
he actually got up and spoke to the director who turned around and asked one of the fencers to pull up his socks...

remember, not only does one have to wear long socks, the said long socks have to stay up, or it's a yellow card...if the ref is real picky...

come on the pist with the socks down or ankle socks...

if you're an epeeist, proper fencing socks do offer a bit of a thicker layer in front of the shins. but if you have a practice partner who likes to hit you on the shins, football socks with the extra protection on your front leg shins may be needed.

pk

NHCTUSA Fencer
-23rd March 2004, 21:47
as far as protecting "downtown" goes, you had best becareful when you wear a cup. a friend of mine was wearing a cup and it some how shattered and ripped open certain vital organs...not a pretty sight.

gbm
-24th March 2004, 13:58
Ow. Was there any legal action (their ****ing well would have been from me!)

whatsUp
-24th March 2004, 19:42
Have seen some interesting results from study done for stab proof vests for the police.

You only need a blade to penetrate 1cm under the skin to hit something vital especially in the chest.

The same research even worries me wearing a plastron and 800N jacket having read some papers on stabbing type injuries.


I am sorry for the death of a fencer from a punctured lung as such an injury is easily treatable.

Remember the parts that hurt may not be vital to life (although some may be vita lto enjoying life)

Regards

Colin

gbm
-24th March 2004, 20:31
The purpose of 800N plastron + jacket is not to prevent the force from hitting, but to prevent penetration even of a broken sword, and thus to prevent the single sharp point with a very large pressure from stabbing the person in question.
Instead, as long as the sword does not penetrate, there should be much less of a wound (maybe a big bruise) from even very hard hits.

whatsUp
-24th March 2004, 20:38
If you look at the mechanics of a blade injury which is the same as a stab wound the force applied is not the same as a drop test which is the standard way of testing material for its protective effect.

It would be interesting to know the equipment that the Ukranian fencer was wearing and the type of blade that caused his injury.

Colin

gbm
-25th March 2004, 08:09
STANDARDS FOR TESTING THE RESISTANCE
OF CLOTH AGAINST PERFORATION

1. Generalities

The method which is the subject of this standard is intended to determine the resistance against perforation of cloth used to make up fencing uniforms.

The perforation load is defined as the maximum value of impacts registered before the sample of cloth is perforated by the test probe: the load is expressed in Newtons or else in kilogrammmes of force to one decimal place.

2. Methods of conducting the test

2.1. The test takes place using a high speed dynamometer (as, for example, the INSTROM 1273 apparatus) fitted with a moving test probe 3 mm long, with a square section, a pyramidal head and an angle at the tip of 120° (see Figure A.2, section A); this probe must be made of high speed or super high speed steel, with a length of 70 mm, of which at least 50 mm juts out from the holding device (see Figure A.2, section B).

2.1.1. The travel of the point must be perpendicular to the surface of the cloth during the course of the test.

2.1.2. The speed of the probe during the test component of its travel must be more than 6 m/s.

2.2. The test must be conducted in a place where the temperature is 20–25°C and with a relative humidity of 50–55%.

2.3. The samples for the test must be taken from a piece of cloth around 50 cm high, free of faults and obtained at random at a distance of at least 2 m from the ends.

The samples must be square in shape with sides of 14–15 cm and they must be fixed on a device with a double vice (see Figure A.3) while leaving a section of 50 mm diameter free for the test.

In the case of fabrics made of several separated layers of cloth, a continuous seam must be sewn along the sides of the square of material which constitutes the sample.

2.4. The samples of cloth must be brought to the area where the test will take place at least two hours before the test.

2.5. During the test the force applied by the probe must be registered under the proper conditions of temperature and humidity. The end of the scale for measuring the forces must not be more than 5000 Newton with a tolerance of ± 5 Newton).

2.6. For each cloth, at least three samples must be tested, taken at random from the piece of cloth.

devalleassoc
-25th March 2004, 13:41
That all seems wonderfully claen, simple, controlled, and totally unrealistic. (But then how wlse could you rate anything with consistancy?)
The problem is, accidents are not clean neat or controlled. Fabrics are not usually brand new. What is the solution?? I do not know. The answer is not that simple at, IF there even is one.

gbm
-25th March 2004, 13:48
And who's fencing kit is at 20-25C and 50-55% humidity after a few fights?

devalleassoc
-25th March 2004, 14:07
Exactly!! Not mine!!! (125% humidity is more like it, if that were possible) As we know(?) the wetter the fabric, the more elastic (weaker) it tends to get.

gbm
-25th March 2004, 14:14
Greater than 100% relative humidity is actually possible...
I would say 'liquid' on the fabric would probably qualify for this definition...

devalleassoc
-25th March 2004, 14:28
That's a very interesting point. Actually, this can very easily occur with a great deal of perspiration, combined with many layers.

devalleassoc
-25th March 2004, 15:28
Originally posted by goodbadandme
And who's fencing kit is at 20-25C and 50-55% humidity after a few fights?

Actually, Goodbadandme, since the safety tests are nothing more than a way of POSSIBLY preventing lawsuits against manufactures, and they are not based on the possibilty of A REAL accident ever happening, I think that we should bring back.....REAL ARMOUR!!!!!
What do you think of that!!??!!:sam:

gbm
-25th March 2004, 17:14
Andrew (me) clunks down the piste in full Leon Paul Athens 2500N Plate Armour and peers through his Leon Paul 5000N Visor 2000...

J_D
-25th March 2004, 18:17
While the tests are there to prove that the material exceeds the requirement of 350N and 800 N, depending on the sample, the question that does not appear to have been asked is where do these figures come from?

what is the force applied by a weapon broken with say a 10" section left in the hand of a 16 stone fencer mid fleche as this would be quite different to the force of an 8 stone lady mid lunge after losing the last 6" of her foil!

devalleassoc
-25th March 2004, 21:42
Originally posted by goodbadandme
Andrew (me) clunks down the piste in full Leon Paul Athens 2500N Plate Armour and peers through his Leon Paul 5000N Visor 2000...

......W/bullet proof lexan at THAT!! I'm there!!!!! (I'm sure our pal Madfencer would just luuuvv this!!)

J_D, thank you, our point precisely!! (No punn intended.......so, what's the point...okay, I'll shut up now!!)

whatsUp
-26th March 2004, 08:28
The reason that specific vests were developed for stab wounds is that the protective effect needed to stop a sharp object is completely different from that required to stop a bullet due to the differences in force transmission.

The police bullet proof vests were found not to protect against stab wounds thus the change.

The mechanism for testing above is what is called a drop test and only measures resitance to penetration in ideal conditions. The mechanics of a satb are completely different which is why I still am unconvinced that even 800N clothing would stop a broken blade piercing the clothes.

Regards

Colin

devalleassoc
-26th March 2004, 12:29
Originally posted by whatsUp


The mechanism for testing above is what is called a drop test and only measures resitance to penetration in ideal conditions. The mechanics of a satb are completely different which is why I still am unconvinced that even 800N clothing would stop a broken blade piercing the clothes.

Regards

Colin


800N clothing do not, will not, and cannot stop a broken blade from penetrating, as the shape, forces etc, are totally unpredictable, so there is no way that a mechanical test can ever come close to duplicating this. That's why it's called an ACCIDENT!

(Perhaps they should pay an elite fencer to lunge, full force with some random broken blade into a heated, sopping wet piece of fabric, rigged to sensors to measure the force) There ya go, low tech meets high tech. It'll never happen. ;)