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Barry Paul
-12th March 2004, 13:05
At a recent team Championships at Taulbabishopheim

It is alleged.
German ladies epee team are through to Olympics. France has to win to get to the Olympics. Germany losses by 15 hits with top German fencer sitting it out. Next day Mens sabre team France already qualified. Germany must beat France in 1/4 final. Germany wins.

Not that I am suggesting there was any thing going on, but it does make you wonder if the F.I.E. gave their selection procedure any proper consideration.

Barry Paul M.D. Leon Paul

3 Card Trick
-12th March 2004, 14:15
Shouldn't that be COMBINE?

Craig
-12th March 2004, 15:52
Interesting. Who was the last out (top 4 and EUR zone) impacted negatively by this?

Craig

Barry Paul
-12th March 2004, 17:08
Are there zonal team entries or is just the top eight? Because if there are looking at Chinese and Korean Team results should be interesting. Barry Paul

Craig
-12th March 2004, 17:58
It's top 4 teams and then the top team from each of the zones:
Europe
Africa
Asia-Oceana
Americas

For the Americas, Canada is going in Women's Epee and the US has Men's Sabre and Foil locked up and is leading over CAN in Men's Epee.

Craig

Barry Paul
-15th March 2004, 07:05
Once a team is in the top 4 it will not bother too much in the Zonals and or can trade some team results between different weapons/sexes at zonal events. Barry Paul

oddball
-16th March 2004, 11:34
What are Cartels??

Barry Paul
-16th March 2004, 12:53
In the good old days of pools and other systems before Direct Elimination, initially Individuals and then countries would, once they were throught to the next round, give fights away in the expectation of been helped at some other competition if the position was reversed. It is called cheating. If you read Richard Cohens Book By the Sword you will get an idea how bad it became. Barry Paul

DrT
-16th March 2004, 13:00
Originally posted by oddball
What are Cartels??
1. an international group of independent businesses formed to control production and prices and to restrict competition in certain business enterprises.
2. a written agreement between warring governments, esp. for an exchange of prisoners.

Combine:
1. a machine used for harvesting that cuts and cleans the grain.
2. a group of people or organizations united by their interest in a commercial or political enterprise.

(Definition 2 is probably more relevant here ;) )

JohnL
-16th March 2004, 13:07
In response to the original question, "Are Cartels (Combines) back?)

I think I would ask, "Did they ever go away?"

Craig
-16th March 2004, 13:31
Originally posted by Barry Paul
Once a team is in the top 4 it will not bother too much in the Zonals and or can trade some team results between different weapons/sexes at zonal events. Barry Paul

Check out the latest article at Fencing.Net:

Road to Athens: Men's Epee (http://www.fencing101.com/content/view/165/2/)

All the strong teams will be in Vancouver either protecting their seed or going for qualification as it is the last world cup for Olympic consideration.

There are 3 European teams competing for 2 slots. Russia, France, and Germany are pretty much locks for 3 of the top 4, so for them Vancouver is about seeding. You really don't want to be in the 4/5 slot.

Korea and China are within 2 points of each other with China coming on strong. For that reason, I'm picking China to come out ahead this weekend and will also predict them to win their first round at the Games, so Germany really wants to get up to #2 if they can to avoid the Chinese team.

After Vancouver, there is one more World Cup for individual qualification. I'll be tracking all of that over at Fencing.Net.

Craig

PKT
-16th March 2004, 20:48
Originally posted by Craig
...

All the strong teams will be in Vancouver either protecting their seed ...

Craig


aah, the lack of thee tiny letters -ing - changes the shole meaning of what Craig menas, doesn't it?
:grin: [smarty pants]

see y'all in Vancouver. i'll be behind a digital video-camera most of the time...

pk

nahouw
-16th March 2004, 23:08
Originally posted by Barry Paul
It is alleged.
German ladies epee team are through to Olympics. France has to win to get to the Olympics. Germany losses by 15 hits with top German fencer sitting it out. Next day Mens sabre team France already qualified. Germany must beat France in 1/4 final. Germany wins.

Not that I am suggesting there was any thing going on, but it does make you wonder if the F.I.E. gave their selection procedure any proper consideration.


Barry, considering the format for qualification, I agree that since you brought it up, that there may APPEAR to be improprieties; however, you do have to consider the whole picture.

The Tauberbischofsheim Individual competition was the day after the team event, and seeding for the Olympics is important, so the German coach's decision to let a fencer rest considering that they already qualified a team is reasonable. Look at the recent men's épée competition in Paris -- the team event was held the day after the Individual event, and many teams chose to not let their best fencers fence in the individual event in order to save them for team event. Even the USA, the decision was made that any USA fencer who participated in the Individual competition would NOT receive ANY US ranking points.

In addition, for an event like Women's foil, in which there will be no team event in the Olympics, many countries are holding back their best fencers from these events -- why? -- because it is the perfect opportunity to provide a real challenge for your up-and-coming fencers to be thrown into the fire -- they get good experience which will rapidly further their development, and since there is no Olympic team competition for them, it is a great opportunity to do so -- a win-win situation as far as a country's overall development program (assuming that you are in a country that has a program that looks at long range needs as opposed to short term results).

The last thing to look at is the psychology aspect. The German Women's Épée team has already qualified; the French Women's Épée team had their back against the wall -- they HAD to beat everybody in order to qualify. This is an extreme motivation. How many times have you ever watched a DE bout in which one fencer was leading the bout, and then he lost it in the end? The reason that he lost it was because he thought he was so sure to win it, and relaxed, because he was ahead. What he didn't count on was that he put his opponent into a position with his back against the wall, and needed to turn it around. A bout is never finished until the end, and the prudent fencer would realize this and drive on until the end. Bottom line in any bout or match is that the person who has the bigger and stronger will and drive will win! A true testament that fencing is primarily a mind game!

Lastly, the referee is responsible for overseeing the bouts. There is a card for collusion, for not fencing the best of your ability, etc... Since the referee in the match didn't see anything of this sort, I would chalk it up to the psychology factor -- remember -- fencing is probably about 80% mental -- whoever wants it more, and who is able to perform under pressure, will win.

Also, considering all this, you have to be an EXTREMELY good fencer in order to throw a bout -- it is extremely hard for you to show your true intentions without an observant referee noticing.

So, all-in-all, I would say that there are not cartels operating; I think that the qualification paths are extremely hard and that all fencers are doing the best that they can.

Barry Paul
-17th March 2004, 07:50
As I said in the original post the present Team qualification system does leave individual teams qualified and in a position to help other countries in subsequently competitions. Previously the ability to throw fights or matches for future advantage or cross weapon advantage eventually lead to wholesale cheating by the top countries.

Unless the system changes it will happen again.

Barry Paul

Epeecurean
-17th March 2004, 08:04
Originally posted by nahouw
Lastly, the referee is responsible for overseeing the bouts. There is a card for collusion, for not fencing the best of your ability, etc... Since the referee in the match didn't see anything of this sort, I would chalk it up to the psychology factor....
[]
Also, considering all this, you have to be an EXTREMELY good fencer in order to throw a bout -- it is extremely hard for you to show your true intentions without an observant referee noticing.


nahouw, I agree with most ofl your points explaining the result and why it was likely not a combine (resting fencers, relative motivation, etc.), but I seriously doubt these last two points are true. I don't think it takes much at all to throw a bout, you would just have to ease up slightly. And even if you do think you have to be an extremely good fencer to pull it off, wouldn't the French and German national teams qualify under that criteria? As for referees detecting and penalising collusion -- I've never heard of it happening. Even in the days of poules, when combines were considered a big problem, I doubt think there were many official determinations of collusion.

Barry, did they ever catch cheaters back in the day?

Cheers,
Epeecurean

JohnL
-17th March 2004, 12:57
The problem, both now and back in the old days, is proving it.

Saying that there are penalties for collusion is to suggest that the referee is responsible for identifying it. That is a task beyond the natural abilities of mankind.

Top fencers are not going to make any collusion so obvious as to incur a penalty.

The only way to reduce it, is to reduce the opportunities for a fencer to gain from it.

As a separate question;

Back in the old days, when there was DE with repecharge, you had to lose 2 bouts to be eliminated. If during the course of a bout one of the fencers was not trying and the referee says so and is about to award a penalty the fencer says, "This guy always beats me anyway, I am better off losing to him and saving my energy for the next bout"

Is he guilty of an offence or is it just good tactics?
If guilty, of what?
Should he be penalised?
What for?

Rdb811
-17th March 2004, 22:50
Some years when team orders were not allowed in F1, Eddie Irvine got 'telephone call' and slowed down to allow Schumacher through. Martin Brundell made the comment that it wiill be explained as a "brake problem" - sure enough Ross Braun popped up 20 minutes later muttering about 'spongy brakes'. Nearly every stewards enquiry seems to inolv a horse 'losing it's action'. And then ther's the infamous Austria - West Germany World Cup match.

On the otherhand, a triple pike with somesault off a horse ....

Barry Paul
-18th March 2004, 17:47
At a world Champs a Russian Lady was so bad at throwing her fight she was disquolified? or were Hits given against her (not much point in that, as she was trying to be hit) Her oponent was also warned, not sure what for. Trying to win? Barry Paul

Epeecurean
-18th March 2004, 18:28
Originally posted by Rdb811
On the otherhand, a triple pike with somesault off a horse ....

It looked real smooth, didn't it? I'd've given that guy a gymnastics score of 9.8 at least!

PKT
-30th March 2004, 01:17
Originally posted by Barry Paul
At a recent team Championships at Taulbabishopheim

It is alleged.
German ladies epee team are through to Olympics. France has to win to get to the Olympics. Germany losses by 15 hits with top German fencer sitting it out. Next day Mens sabre team France already qualified. Germany must beat France in 1/4 final. Germany wins.

Not that I am suggesting there was any thing going on, but it does make you wonder if the F.I.E. gave their selection procedure any proper consideration.

Barry Paul M.D. Leon Paul


This is my observation after the 2004 Vancover World Cup:

==)-----------------------

You now know the team results of the Vanc. World Cup (VWC).
If you don't, here's the URL
http://www.pbinternational.ca/results.html

Before the team DE tableau was dispalyed, i was told to watch for the reactions of the various teams' coaches and members. Alas, nothing dramatic was visible.

But these are the facts, as Craig have so succinctly wrote in his post:
http://www.fencing101.com/index.php...id=165&Itemid=2

Russia, France and Germany have qualified for the Athens Olympic Games (AOG) based on their world ranking as #1, 2 and 3, respectively.

1. Going into the VWC, Ukraine led Italy and Hungary by 6 points.
2. Only the top two teams in the World Cup points standing at the conclusion of the VWC woulld qualify for the AOG.

The result in Vancouver:
Hugary 2nd
Italy 4th
Ukraine 5th

By virtue of the 6-point lead Ukraine had over Italy going into this last round and their 5th place in the VWC Ukraine qualified for the OG and so did Hungary with their 2nd place finish which leaves ... Mamamia!!! ITA, the defending Olympic epee team champion FAILED to qualify for the AOG.

Before the start of the 3rd round DE of the team event RUMOURS were ramapant:
~ Italy ALLEDGEDLY offered 10,000 Euros to the Russians to beat Hungary.
~ The Russians ALLEDGEDLY went to the Ukrainians and told them of the Italian offer. Purportedly, the Ukrainians told the Russians that they'll match the Italian offer.

End results?

1. Russia lost to Hungary by 45/33, and that's with the reigning World Champion Kolobkov on the team. Alas, I didn't tape that match.
2. Germany was leading the Ukrainians 31-28 with Schmid, seeded #16 in the World Cup point standing, fencing the last leg against Karuchenko, seeded 30th. [i was shooting the FRA - HUN match and came to the ALL - UKR match when the score was already 31 - 28 FOR the Germans. I started shooting from that point on.]

Now, you tell me, when one is leading by 5 points in epee, all one has to do was go for double hits, right? One shouldn't lose with a 5-point lead.

Sure enough, Schmid lost 6 points in a row!!! and on time.

At the conclusion of the match, Schmid did not look too bothered by the loss.

OTOH, the ITA Coach was going ballistic - quite understandably because he might lose his job as a result - around the DE tableau where the ITA team set themselves, was going around saying "Dio!" "Proco Dio!" and "Putanna!" and slapping his hand on a table. This, my friends, i DID captured on video by accident since i made it a practice of shooting the DE tableau at the conclusion of each round... and the ITA team was devastated, to say the least.

Here's a foto of the aftermath of the ALL - UKR match.
http://www.fencing101.com/gallery/d...p&cat=0&pos=175
You can see the ITA team in the background with the said DE tableu on the right-hand side of the foto.

BTW, here's the individual results:
None of the Germans fenced in the individual event.
The Ukranians results were: OSHAROV, 19th; Khvorost, 37; Karuchenko, 38th; chumak, 45th; Nikishin, 46th.
The ITA results: Rota, 1st; Schaier, 27th; Confalonieri, 48th; Bossalini 69th.

It was not surprising that the audience - which was made up of mainly competitors, fencers, coaches and officials was muttering, rather boisterously, that the Germans and the Russians, not wanting to fence the stronger Italian team in the AOG, threw their matches thus ensuring the Hungarians and the Ukranians qualifying for the AOG.

That's forward-thinking strategy.

OTOH, FRA went on and beat the Hungarians 45 - 40. FRA did not lose to anyone.

==)----------------

After the medals were presented, some woman in the offical medals party started singing loudly the first few notes of the Russian national anthem!!! then realised she was singing the wrong anthem. Sacre' bleu!

In resposnse, i, though behind the camera, started chanting LA MARSEILLAISE - thanks to my French maitres. At which point Fabrice Jeannet realised that the organisers were not going to play the anthem or raise the Tricolour, joined me and goaded his teammates to a very rousing and crowd-pleasing singing of LA MARSEILLAISE.
http://www.fencing101.com/gallery/d...ge.php?pos=-245
And a good time was had by all.

Your humble reporter,
PK

Tubby
-30th March 2004, 11:34
PK
a most interesting account, thank you. The links to the 101 gallery comes up with 404 file not found.

PKT
-30th March 2004, 20:45
Sorry.
Craig, the web master was diddling with the setup.
Here's a new link:
http://www.fencing101.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=lastup&cat=&pos=0
Inthis foto, the FRA team was singing a hearty rendition of their national anthem...

or this:
http://ca.f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/patrick68tam/album?.dir=/eef2&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//ca.f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/patrick68tam/my_photos
you may have to get my permission to get into this one...
PM me.
PK