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J4G
-19th June 2012, 09:00
A few questions that came up last night between a few of us:

1) Can the team have any starting order from the 4 fencers going? I understood it to be the 3 individuals plus the named reserve. In other words, is Laurence Halsted
entitled to start the first match or can he only come in once subbed on (and if I understand it right he would then be in for the rest of the matches and the team
effectively operating without a reserve for the rest of the day)?

2) If the reserve doesn't fence but the team still medals, do all 4 get one or does the reserve actually have to fence (again, I'd heard somewhere that the
reserve was in the Olympic but not really)?

pinkelephant
-19th June 2012, 09:31
A few questions that came up last night between a few of us:

1) Can the team have any starting order from the 4 fencers going? I understood it to be the 3 individuals plus the named reserve. In other words, is Laurence Halsted
entitled to start the first match or can he only come in once subbed on (and if I understand it right he would then be in for the rest of the matches and the team
effectively operating without a reserve for the rest of the day)?

2) If the reserve doesn't fence but the team still medals, do all 4 get one or does the reserve actually have to fence (again, I'd heard somewhere that the
reserve was in the Olympic but not really)?

http://www.fie.ch/download/homepage/en/3.2%20Alternates%20london%20ang.pdf

Fencer91
-19th June 2012, 09:55
that document doesnt really answer any of his questions apart from confirming that once subbed in no more subs can be made

Jacdaw
-19th June 2012, 11:13
Does the reserve get to fence in the individual?

pinkelephant
-19th June 2012, 11:17
Does the reserve get to fence in the individual?

No.

TRB
-19th June 2012, 12:33
1) I believe the team can be picked from any of the 4. The team event is like any other team event, the only thing that makes the selected reserve different is that they can not fence in the individual event.

2) The reserve must fence otherwise should the team medal they will not be given a medal.

pinkelephant
-19th June 2012, 13:35
The team event is NOT like any other team event - I posted the rules above. Once the substitute has fenced, the original fencer may not compete again in the ENTIRE competition, not just that match. The only difference between this Olympics and previous ones is that the substitution may now be for tactical reasons, whereas in previous Olympics it had to be for injury only.

It's amazing how many injuries there were in a team's last match if they were about to win a medal...:whistle:

DSSabre
-19th June 2012, 13:48
Its also worth noting that for Beijing reserve athletes are not allowed to stay in the village as they were determined not to be actual Olympians and if the reserve fenced the other athlete would have to give up his/her spot in the village for the rest of the games....

Not sure if this is true again in London especially as we are the host nation.

DS

miraberis
-19th June 2012, 14:48
What's the reason for the extra restriction (Quote PE: "Once the substitute has fenced, the original fencer may not compete again in the ENTIRE competition, not just that match.")? Did the IOC (or whoever) just decide to be awkward?

Clare Halsted
-19th June 2012, 16:12
After Beijing when an injury was almost certainly faked to try and include the 4th fencer in the medals, the FIE Medical Commission proposed that the rule for the Olympics was changed to comply with all other FIE events ie tactical substitution allowed throughout. However, the IOC did not accept this hence the current compromise situation.

Clare

TRB
-19th June 2012, 16:33
The team event is NOT like any other team event - I posted the rules above. Once the substitute has fenced, the original fencer may not compete again in the ENTIRE competition, not just that match. The only difference between this Olympics and previous ones is that the substitution may now be for tactical reasons, whereas in previous Olympics it had to be for injury only.

It's amazing how many injuries there were in a team's last match if they were about to win a medal...:whistle:

In that case I stand corrected. Apologies.

Fencer91
-19th June 2012, 16:36
After Beijing when an injury was almost certainly faked to try and include the 4th fencer in the medals, the FIE Medical Commission proposed that the rule for the Olympics was changed to comply with all other FIE events ie tactical substitution allowed throughout. However, the IOC did not accept this hence the current compromise situation.

Clare

If thats the case I hope games like football in the Olympics will follow the same rule about substitution (ie once made thats it for the team for the rest of the tournament) otherwise its completely unfair

pinkelephant
-19th June 2012, 17:16
If thats the case I hope games like football in the Olympics will follow the same rule about substitution (ie once made thats it for the team for the rest of the tournament) otherwise its completely unfair

That's a ridiculous comparison. You might as well say that a fencer who starts before the word "play" should be disqualified, by analogy with the rules for athletics.

Fencer91
-20th June 2012, 00:11
That's a ridiculous comparison. You might as well say that a fencer who starts before the word "play" should be disqualified, by analogy with the rules for athletics.

I disagree why should football be allowed to change the make up of their teams before every match but fencing cant

pinkelephant
-20th June 2012, 06:41
I disagree why should football be allowed to change the make up of their teams before every match but fencing cant
It's a different sport.

TomA
-20th June 2012, 11:04
It's a different sport.But the rules don't change for one competition. Fencing allows one substitution per match in most competitions, but this isn't allowed for the Olympics. Effectively the IOC are dictating to the FIE what the rules of their sport should be, which is not on IMHO.

Cloudy
-20th June 2012, 12:50
But the rules don't change for one competition. Fencing allows one substitution per match in most competitions, but this isn't allowed for the Olympics. Effectively the IOC are dictating to the FIE what the rules of their sport should be, which is not on IMHO.

Actually, no they're not. They're dictating what Olympic fencing is. Fencing is by no means the only sport with some special Olympic rules, I know ice hockey has different rules for the Olympics as well.

miraberis
-20th June 2012, 13:06
The question is why!
It seems perverse for them to change the well established rules of a sport without good reason.
If they have a good reason, what is it? It certainly isn't obvious.

TomA
-20th June 2012, 13:13
Actually, no they're not. They're dictating what Olympic fencing is.Yes, Olympic fencing. Which is what the FIE is the governing body of. So actually, yes they are.

People would be annoyed if the IOC suddenly told the ATP and WTA that the doubles sidelines were to be used for singles tennis, or told AIBA that head shots were no longer to be allowed in Olympic boxing. Yes, it's their competition, they can do what they like, but to make changes to the governing body's rules IMO detracts from the meaning of the event, especially when it will have an impact on the result of a match. You spend your career competing under one set of rules to reach the highest pinnacle of your sport and then when you get there, the rules are changed and it's not the same game anymore.

Fencer91
-20th June 2012, 14:24
It's a different sport.

Different sport same principle. Modern pentathlon is a different discipline but it has fencing in it.....oh wait is that not fencing by your definition because its within a different sport?

If you are going to make ridiculous rules like they have done without an apparent reason or justification then apply it across the whole competition for other sports as well, not just for some sports substitutions.

riposteinprime
-20th June 2012, 14:45
As has already been said - it's to do with limits on the number of accreditations. It's along the same chain as why we don't have more athletes or medals.

Christ guys, no need to get so high and mighty when you don't understand the processes at work.

pinkelephant
-20th June 2012, 16:20
I never said I AGREED with it. I was just pointing out the absurdity of comparing apples with pears.