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View Full Version : Can you use non-insulated masks for F.I.E. A Grade Epee competitions.



Barry Paul
-15th March 2004, 07:15
Can anyone show me if its allowed or not in the present F.I.E. rules. Barry Paul

Australian
-15th March 2004, 10:42
m.27 (rules specific to foil)

The mesh of the mask must not extend below the chin. It must be insulated internally and externally by a plastic material resistant to impact.


m.30 (rules specific to epee)

The mask must not be covered, in whole or in part, by material which can cause the point to glance off (cf. m.25).

The mask must be so shaped that the bib reaches below the prominences of the collar bone (clavicles).

thus, no its not needed for epee

bydande
-15th March 2004, 11:43
I found the following statement in the "Annexe to the material rules" under Section 2.2 "Shape dimensions and methods of production of the elements of fencing masks" para 4.2

"The mesh must be entirely covered in paint with a polymer base"

And as the Epee specific section of the rules does not include any statement to amend or annul this requirement - unlike the sabre specific section which does contain the statement "the metal mesh of the mask must not be insulated" (m3,2) - it could be construed that the rules do require the mask mesh to be insulated for epee as well as foil.

Australian
-15th March 2004, 14:50
Originally posted by bydande
I found the following statement in the "Annexe to the material rules" under Section 2.2 "Shape dimensions and methods of production of the elements of fencing masks" para 4.2

"The mesh must be entirely covered in paint with a polymer base"

And as the Epee specific section of the rules does not include any statement to amend or annul this requirement - unlike the sabre specific section which does contain the statement "the metal mesh of the mask must not be insulated" (m3,2) - it could be construed that the rules do require the mask mesh to be insulated for epee as well as foil.


mmmm interesting...

perhaps an email to SEMI?

PKT
-16th March 2004, 18:46
i've always thought that foil masks are the only ones that needed to be insulated:
when one gets so sweaty that a hit on the mask - a non-valid part of the target - is registered by the score box as a valid hit.

this is not a problem in epee...

i may, of course, be wrong without reading the FIE rules in detail.

pk

Robert
-16th March 2004, 19:48
Originally posted by bydande
I found the following statement in the "Annexe to the material rules" under Section 2.2 "Shape dimensions and methods of production of the elements of fencing masks" para 4.2

"The mesh must be entirely covered in paint with a polymer base"



Oh dear. My mask isn't painted. It is a Leon-Paul, a little on the old side (not sure how old). I was curious for Epee, but this implies it is illegal for foil (cannot imagine why).

Robert

stevejackson
-16th March 2004, 20:28
Robert, At foil you'll get problems when the mask gets sweaty. There can be enough conduction for the mask to record on target hits. I've seen this happen with notionally insulated masks as well. I think certain fencers have been known to encourage this to deprive oponents of hits at cirticical times in a fight. Proving the mask is recording as valid almost forces the referree to annull the hit under rule t54.

At epee masks should be insulated to avoid cheats connecting their mask to the guard and avoiding hits to mask recording, Yes the fencer hitting will realise that they hit mask but unless they're really switched on they would probably assume its one of those random none recording hits that happen sometimes.

stevejackson
-16th March 2004, 20:30
Sorry, forgot to state that the bit about insulated masks for epee in my last post is personal opinion, not from the rules.

Robert
-16th March 2004, 21:17
Steve,

That is a bit of a worry. I don't want to replace my present mask, unless it is to upgrade to a visor type, and I don't want to do that until I'm not going to humiliate myself on the piste.

So I am a little stuck. I don't mind losing a hit because of the sweaty mask problem. But I am a little worried about the epee. In theory at least surely the mask could short the tip the same way a lame does (as well as being open to cheating).

Now I have just fenced 12 months with this foil mask and no-one has said anything, and I have done 4 epee comps (H&W, CambWT, MOFT, Notts) without anyone commenting. It was only when I started doing epee comps that I thought about.

Also, someone else tried my mask on at the weekend and pointed out I get much better vision because of the larger gaps.

Now I am not planning to go to an FIE competition anytime soon but where do I stand if someone questions the mask at an open?

Robert

P.S Steve, thanks for the pmail, I only just picked it up today.

Australian
-17th March 2004, 09:12
Originally posted by stevejackson
Robert, At foil you'll get problems when the mask gets sweaty. There can be enough conduction for the mask to record on target hits. I've seen this happen with notionally insulated masks as well. I think certain fencers have been known to encourage this to deprive oponents of hits at cirticical times in a fight. Proving the mask is recording as valid almost forces the referree to annull the hit under rule t54.

i've seen it happen :)

bydande
-17th March 2004, 10:30
This may be a slight red herrring - but here is what the British implementation of the CE standard on protective clothing for fencers (BS EN 13567:2002) has to say about mask mesh:

"Level 1 mesh shall be plated or coated to prevent rusting or shall be of stainless steel. Level 2 mesh shall be made from stainless steel or similar corrosion resitant material"

So Robert:
- is your mask Level 1 or Level 2 and is the mesh on your mask stainless steel or another metal with a corrosion resitant coating such as nickel?
- or does your mask date from pre the introduction of the CE standard?

Barry Paul
-17th March 2004, 15:09
the rules states hits can only be annulled at foil when a valid hit registers on the mask if the insulation is perfect. As all masks have cracks in the insulation as soon as a mask is used the Referee can give all hits and does not have to give the fencer the benifit of the doubt. Barry Paul

Australian
-17th March 2004, 17:05
Originally posted by Barry Paul
the rules states hits can only be annulled at foil when a valid hit registers on the mask if the insulation is perfect. As all masks have cracks in the insulation as soon as a mask is used the Referee can give all hits and does not have to give the fencer the benifit of the doubt. Barry Paul

and i've seen the hit stand too :):)

it actually hit the little screw thingy at the top of the mask

quite cool in one regard