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reposte
-7th May 2003, 13:51
In your opinion, is it possible for a fencer to be one of the top in the world, and yet never achieve international recognition - not win anything, that is?
I've read on one fencer that won just a single silver medal in some international event (possibly an Olympic game at it's early stages) who didn't win much else but was said to have "on a good day, beat anyone."
I know that in the former Soviet Union a lot of extremely talented fencers weren't permitted to go to international comps
because they had the wrong last name...

What do you think?

:party:

haggis
-7th May 2003, 14:18
Pascal Jolyot (FRA). Silver at Moscow Olympics in 1980 behind Smirnov, following silver at 1979 Worlds behind Romankov. In 1980 he was probably only 23. He suffered with injury problems a lot (shoulder) and I believe eventually had to retire as a result. A fine classical French fencer who was unlucky (?) to be around with Romankov and Smirnov and injury prevented him from taking on the next wave of Italian stars (Numa, Borella, etc.) Saw him fence in about 1986 during his latest injury comeback. His hand still worked a treat but there were clearly problems.

The poor sod never even won the World Juniors (runner-up to some hairy Brit called Bruniges)

reposte
-7th May 2003, 14:25
Yes, but you still take as a given that he was Romankov and Smirnov's lesser, and I'm wondering - could there be someon who is top of the chart, and not make it.
For Example, Golubitski was WC for about 3 - 4 times in a row. Was he the best fencer through out all that time?

Can, say a shaky and unstady temper, bad lack and injury contrive to deny someone being champion despite being an enviable someone to win at comps?

haggis
-7th May 2003, 14:32
Golubitsky won 3 successive WCs 97, 98 and 99. THe only surprise was that it took him so long to win the first one.

I'm struggling to come up with other names for you but I'll give it some more thought. Jolyot might still fit the bill - injury-plagued career but definitely considered a possible , even likely, World Champion in his youf.

reposte
-7th May 2003, 18:01
BTW, were the injuries Fencing related? How does one get hurt so badly on the shoulder from Fencing?

And regarding the big G', do you think he was the best (at his time I mean, not through out generations)?

haggis
-7th May 2003, 21:16
Not totallysure about Jolyot's injury. Maybe some of the more experienced members of the board can enlightened us.

Golubitsky, definitely the best of his generation. Three WCs is probably a pretty poor return for how he dominated foil. As I said, the only surprise when he won in 97 was how long it had taken.

srb
-9th May 2003, 13:13
For a UK woulda shoulda coulda my vote goes to Justin Pitman.

He was a fantastic fencer, but his face didn't seem to fit with the senior selectors.

haggis
-9th May 2003, 13:44
Ah, Justin Pitman. Tremendous fencer, really nice guy. Unfortunately, after his junior years became rather fat lazy party boy (hope Laurence is reading). Definitely a coulda and a shoulda but not a woulda cos he didn't seem interested enough. Pity.

reposte
-9th May 2003, 14:16
Certainly fits the bill regarding woulda shoulda - not so sure regarding coulda..
The "move to senior" syndrome is well known and is not entirely dependant on commitment. Senior fencing is entirely
different so we can't tell whether he had it in him despite the fact that he was a remarkable junior.
Examples are ample: Haggis, you yourself wrote to me about Thorsten Weidner, and from back home here
we've got Junior World Champion Tomer Or who only now is beginning to make something of himself world class as senior.
I think that almost ten years have since past from his JWC win.

BTW - I don't know Pitman, neither by name or reputation so this remark is general...

Mischa
-9th May 2003, 14:49
Or is in the top 10 now isn't he? Good luck to him!

reposte
-9th May 2003, 17:15
Yep, but he's dropping. He was fifth at his top I think, only a few months ago, I hope he's in Bonn and that he'll take good care of business.
Anyway Misha, if you have "Balen ISR" on your back you should know that there is more then the rivals to contend with when you're Israeli... I heard he almost got chucked out of the Athen's trip and had to buy his own ticket because of union debts...
I wonder how's that gonna turn out.