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4"10 Writer
-27th March 2004, 12:42
Hello.

I need as much information about BUSA as possible.

1) How many back-ups are you allowed?
2)Support crew?
3)How many weapons are fenced?
4)How many matches approximately per year?

Etc, etc, as i have just entered my club for the first time ready for 2004 and i would like to have them prepared as much as possible to take on you vets. Thanksvery much.

Please email me at:
fourfoottenwriter@hotmail.com

Jayne

Mesomphalos
-27th March 2004, 13:23
The basic format for matches are as follows:

3 person team relay format for all three weapons. (i.e. 1st team to 45, and each fencer fences all the oppositions fencers)

You are permitted one reserve per weapon.

It's really up to you with support team if you mean armourors etc. Most of our mens team (Swansea) are armourors anyways. If you want bring along someone who knows what they're doing even they don't fence. Oh, bring spare foils & bodywires, you know what electric is like.

The number of matches will, of course, depend on the league you are entered in, but it is usually somewhere around 8. A perfect example is in a league of say, five teams, each team will fence home and away against other. In the current Western League 1A there was nine teams entered into the league, but you only fence each team once (home or away is decided by Busa.), so again 8 matches.

And then after all that fun, if you do well you'll go through to knockouts.

Another fantastic weekend is the BUSA individuals competition, which i really recommend you enter.

So, by the looks of things you might be in our league, in which case i look forward to fencing you.

Cheers,

Mesomphalos.

Mantis
-27th March 2004, 16:10
There is no restriction on the number of weapons each person can fence and so it is possible for your team to comprise as few as 3 members. Not sure what you mean about back-ups, but if you are thinking that you need to have a fixed squad for all the season, don't worry. You can turn up with a completely different team each week if you want. :grin:

Otherwise, the rules are the same as the BFA rules for team events.

With regards the individuals, make sure you enter early as the closing date is a month beforehand and they take absolutely no late entries.

Mesomphalos
-27th March 2004, 16:23
Also we usually find a BUSA match takes around two and a half hours to play - just so you are aware that it can be quite lengthy.

Also, presiding is usually swapped between teams for each consequtive bout. We often find that both teams chip in with regards to presiding, so in effect preside by committee - especially in sabre. Of course if you have a coach who can preside impartially then all the better.

You know, i think that's basically it - Oh - Have Fun! that's important......

And go to the pub after the match (if you've got time) - that's the most important. :grin:

Jambo
-27th March 2004, 17:03
Originally posted by Mesomphalos
We often find that both teams chip in with regards to presiding, so in effect preside by committee - especially in sabre.

Ughhh! That is not a good way to ref. Three bad refs dont equal one good one!

hayleyjade
-28th March 2004, 08:02
(jambo your message inbox is full please clear it out! :) )

Mesomphalos
-28th March 2004, 11:18
Admittedly it's not the most preferable way to preside, but if the occasion calls for it, then three average refs are better than one who is uncomfortable presiding. I feel a hell of a lot better if i have to preside foil, as it's my least preferred weapon, then i know if i miss/doubt something i can freely enquire to others about the phase of fencing without looking unprofessional.

doobarz
-28th March 2004, 16:51
Originally posted by Mesomphalos
[B Also, presiding is usually swapped between teams for each consequtive bout. We often find that both teams chip in with regards to presiding, so in effect preside by committee - especially in sabre. Of course if you have a coach who can preside impartially then all the better. [/B]

The BUSA rules stipulate that the home team should provide an independant referee. This is very rare. Try local fencers, or a coach - it really is better to get someone in...

Jambo
-28th March 2004, 18:09
Originally posted by doobarz
The BUSA rules stipulate that the home team should provide an independant referee. This is very rare. Try local fencers, or a coach - it really is better to get someone in...

Who has ever done that?! (Beyond the once I can remember when we got you to ref)

doobarz
-29th March 2004, 06:22
Originally posted by Jambo
Who has ever done that?! (Beyond the once I can remember when we got you to ref)

We once went to York and they had got a local fencer in. @ Northumbria we have used various local fencers who were either on holiday or worked from home. It is possible - your AU should pay them a fee (now that might never happen, but it always does for netball....)

ceprab
-29th March 2004, 07:53
Originally posted by doobarz
We once went to York and they had got a local fencer in. @ Northumbria we have used various local fencers who were either on holiday or worked from home. It is possible - your AU should pay them a fee (now that might never happen, but it always does for netball....)

The only time I have seen a proper ref at a BUSA match was when he was part of the opposition club.

Refereeing by committee has to be better than bad refereeing. We have a member who likes to referee sabre. Once he has been accepted by both teams we let him. This generally involves him awarding points semi-randomly, while the rest of the sabre team and I line up behind him, reconstruct phrases silently (1) with gestures and giggle a lot.

We figure that on average, he probably comes out to about the right score. We try and keep him off when it might be a contentious result. And to forestall criticism for providing a duff ref; we are always happy to accept a ref from the opposition if they can provide one; and I have seen much worse than random. Our guy does at least have a passing familiarity with the rules.

1. We usually agree (2)
2. With each other, not the ref.

ceprab
-29th March 2004, 07:55
Originally posted by Mantis
There is no restriction on the number of weapons each person can fence and so it is possible for your team to comprise as few as 3 members. Not sure what you mean about back-ups, but if you are thinking that you need to have a fixed squad for all the season, don't worry. You can turn up with a completely different team each week if you want. :grin:

Otherwise, the rules are the same as the BFA rules for team events.

With regards the individuals, make sure you enter early as the closing date is a month beforehand and they take absolutely no late entries.

I suspect there may be something about people being in a specific team squad if you are running more than one team (Ask Aber - they had two last/this year).

And I agree: make sure you take as many as possible to the individuals, and get the entry in early. Great fun.

doobarz
-29th March 2004, 15:33
http://www.busa.org.uk/Media/downloads/38_11200320090119_57.doc


Is the link to the fencing section of the BUSA rules. It does say:

33.1 Matches

Universities shall obtain the service of an independent Referee for all matches.

But also..

If an independent referee is not available then the refereeing duties shall be shared between the 2 teams.

mcvicar
-12th April 2004, 11:45
I suspect there may be something about people being in a specific team squad if you are running more than one team (Ask Aber - they had two last/this year).

I can't quote the rules off the top of my head but, as I recall from this season, 1st Team cannot play for 2nd Team and 2nd Team members can play 2 matches for the 1st. Worth checking the rules though as that is only off the top of my head...

4"10 Writer
-12th April 2004, 16:16
:(

Does anyone know when it all begins?????

colliebeast
-12th April 2004, 20:57
about the 2 or third week in oct

Naimst
-13th April 2004, 15:08
In August/September they will publish the leagues and fixtures on the BUSA website. (www.busaresults.org.uk) it is always a good idea to check them early on to make sure that you are there but also that if you have a problem with the date of one of the matches, your AU can get it changed early on. Your opposing uni is more liable to be flexible about rearranging games if you get on it earlier rather than later.
The fixtures will all be finished by around 15th Feb or there abouts at which point BUSA will put everyone who has qualified in to the Championship or Shield knockouts and then these fights will begin!!!

Have a look at this year's leagues to get an idea about dates and things, they will be pretty much the same next year.

Nai

kitten
-17th April 2004, 03:46
Lol hey Jayney!

The rules are actually a tad hazy about providing refs, for most sports it's an iron-clad rule, but for fencing it just says that if you can't provide a ref you have to share the reffing between the two teams. For the leagues it doesn't really matter anyway, for the premier division you should really have someone competent and ideally not a member of the club! Knockouts tend to be more serious and that's when you should think about paying a proper ref.

We always try and have proper refs for our home matches (mostly coz I'm scared of sabre! :o )

ceprab
-23rd April 2004, 14:41
I think the first matches next year are going to be on 13th October but don't mistake this for certainty.

Sparks
-4th May 2004, 13:59
Does anyone know where I can get a list of the scottish 1a division teams for next year? Technically it says last team relegated (Which is sadly my poor poor glasgow boys, don't you just hate it when all your good fencers graduate :p), But QMU didn't turn up, so they were relegated as well. Hence the confusion.

Aer
-4th May 2004, 14:46
Mens 1st Div

Standings (Before StA/Glas)
\ P W L F A Pts Ind
St Andrews 3 3 0 270 200 6 +70
Heriot-Watt 3 2 1 357 329 6 +28
Edinburgh 3 1 2 350 350 3 0
Glasgow 3 0 3 171 269 0 -98
QMUC x x x x x x x

QMUC did not attend and are relegated.


Men's Division 2
Final Standings
P W L F A Pts Ind
Strathclyde 2 2 0 270 113 6 157
Aberdeen 2 1 1 212 244 3 -32
Dundee 2 0 2 145 270 0 -125
RQU x x x x x x x
Stirling x x x x x x x

Strathclyde qualify for BUSA Shield and are promoted.
RGU & Stirling did not attend.


Next Years 1st division should be:

St Andrews
Heriot Watt
Edinburgh
Glasgow
Strathclyde

2nd Division:

Aberdeen
Dundee
QMUC
RGU
Stirling

Hope that clears it up...

Mantis
-4th May 2004, 14:54
Originally posted by Aer
Next Years 1st division should be: (My emphesis)

Herein lies the problem. Yes, Glasgow should not be penalised because QMUC withdrew, but last year Lancaster were relegated from the North Premier division because Sheffield withdrew.

When the new groups are decided they will appear on the BUSA results website. (http://www.busaresults.org.uk)

Kepster
-4th May 2004, 17:35
Originally posted by Mantis
but last year Lancaster were relegated from the North Premier division because Sheffield withdrew.



Actually we asked to be relegated as the best fencers were graduating, and knew we'd get demolished if we stayed in the Premier Div

fitch
-4th May 2004, 17:46
don't forgert, student fencing results from scotland are on the SASF website

SASF (http://www.studentfencing.com)

(well, at least they should be, sometimes takes a while!!!)

Sparks
-4th May 2004, 18:12
Thanks guys, that helps a lot. Now I just need to keep practicing. Hopefully our team will be a little more competitive this year, rather than repeating our rather unfortunate drubbing last year.

Mantis
-4th May 2004, 18:25
Originally posted by Kepster
Actually we asked to be relegated as the best fencers were graduating, and knew we'd get demolished if we stayed in the Premier Div

Aw, and I was feeling sorry for you too. :grin:

Aer
-4th May 2004, 21:32
Originally posted by fitch
don't forgert, student fencing results from scotland are on the SASF website

SASF (http://www.studentfencing.com)

(well, at least they should be, sometimes takes a while!!!)

i like the way the photos are from teams, but say that there from BUSA.

:D

myopic
-4th May 2004, 22:21
Hi there sparks/all

The mens leagues for next year are as stated above - non attendance means automatic relegation, so both RGU and QMC were relegated from the ladies division last year, with both Aberdeen and Heriot Watt gaining promotion.

Ergo (for anyone interested) theoretically the ladies divisions next year should be:

Division 1

Aberdeen
Edinburgh
Glasgow
Heriot Watt
St Andrews

Division 2
Dundee
QMC
RGU
Stirling
Strathclyde

However . . . given that last year everyone in this years division 2 was a no-show, I think it likely division 2 will be scraped unless at least two teams give me definate notice of attendance by about 3 weeks in advance.

If only one team from division 2 wants to play this year I would personally run a division of 6 without relegation, though I'd have to clear it with BUSA first.

Scottish Students feel free to let me know what you think!

(S.A.S.F President)

Aer
-5th May 2004, 07:28
Originally posted by myopic
Hi there sparks/all



However . . . given that last year everyone in this years division 2 was a no-show, I think it likely division 2 will be scraped unless at least two teams give me definate notice of attendance by about 3 weeks in advance.

If only one team from division 2 wants to play this year I would personally run a division of 6 without relegation, though I'd have to clear it with BUSA first.

Scottish Students feel free to let me know what you think!

(S.A.S.F President)

I suggest you start emailing div 2 teams now to try and get them to attend next year...

myopic
-7th May 2004, 09:57
Sounds like a good idea but experiance tells me that, given last year a lot of clubs had trouble giving me 5 days notice, 5 months is more than a little optomistic.

The problem is that a lot of the clubs in question are so small that they will have no way of knowing if they will actually have enough girls to put a team together until the new term starts! Personally I just hope three weeks isn't too much to ask.

Any team which thinks it might be able to send a team but isn't 100% could always enter and withdraw later.

However, theres no good us pretending to BUSA that, for instance, Stirling have a girls team when it hasn't been seen in three odd years.

Deleting teams who are gonna be definate non-starters in advance gives us a fairer and more worthwhile BUSA event. Also should these teams get back on their feet (which it is one of SASF's long term goals to get them to do) then they can always be re-entered in later years.

myopic
-7th May 2004, 10:00
Just to ensure that there is no lingering confusion about the SASF mens teams positioning (see debate above), next years men's league looks like this:

Division 1

Edinburgh
Glasgow
Heriot Watt
St Andrews
Strathclyde

Division 2 (subject to inevitable withdrawals)
Aberdeen
Dundee
QMUC
RGU
Stirling

ceprab
-7th May 2004, 12:07
Originally posted by myopic

However, theres no good us pretending to BUSA that, for instance, Stirling have a girls team when it hasn't been seen in three odd years.


I just want to emphasise this point: Bath Uni ladies reappeared last year after several years of absence (and much effort by the club committee), and went on to win the group and get promotion to the southern premier.

Got to admit though that they may have a struggle to still have a team next year (though the yar after looks good again).

Also, if term and BUSA times are anything like southern England in Scotland, then the teams themselves are lucky to get 5 days notice between the start of the year and the first match. Fine if you have enough people still around for certain, but....

Sparks
-7th May 2004, 13:24
Its a good point. This year we had about 3 weeks to put our team together, and train people to plug the holes we had in it. The same will apply this year.

Mantis
-7th May 2004, 13:43
The reason why the Scottish teams have so long (?) to prepare is because all matches take place over one weekend rather than one per week over a few months. Personally, I prefer the system we have south of the border, although it does mean that you could have a match in week one or two.

fitch
-7th May 2004, 15:27
given the very very low budgets available from our uni for travel to competitions, and the times/distances involved to get from glasgow/edinburgh to aberdeen and dundee, I think the scottish system is fine!

would be nice, however, if we could do BUSA after the SASF teams so those unis whose teams are mainly beginners can have some competition practice first.....

but then this was all discussed at the scottish uni's captain's meeting last year anyhoo.

Sparks
-7th May 2004, 18:45
Yeah, that would be nice. That way it wouldn't be as much of an issue if half your team were so rude as to graduate (i mean honestly....:tongue: )

ceprab
-10th May 2004, 11:21
Agreed that for budget and convenience 1 match a week for months is not sensible. Two or three matches in a day (Say one team hosts, two visit and they all play each other, referees from whichever team isn't involved in the fight) every few weeks would be much better for time and money involved. Better than all in one weekend IMO* as you can be really stuffed if your best fencer(s) can't make the crucial weekend with that setup.

* I would add an H, but there is not really such a thing as a humble opinion.