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doobarz
-1st April 2004, 07:40
Starts today...

Thursday 1st - Cadet WS Ind, Cadets MF Ind
Friday 2nd - Cadet MS Ind, Cadet WE Ind
Saturday 3rd - Cadet WF Ind, Cadet ME Ind
Sunday 4th - Junior WS Ind, Junior MF Ind
Monday 5th - Junior MS Ind, Junior WE Ind
Tuesday 6th - Junior WF Ind, Junior ME Ind
Wednesday 7th - Junior WS Team, Junior WE Team, Junior MF Team
Thursday 8th - Junior MS Team, Junior ME Team, Junior WF Team

http://www.bff-bg.com/plovdiv/ Is the official website...

doobarz
-1st April 2004, 07:47
51 entered

HENDRA Katie GBR Won 1 lost 5 Ind -9
STENNER Robynne GBR Won 3 lost 3 Ind -2
ELLIS Sarah GBR Won 2 lost 2 Ind +2 (one scratched from this poule)

Ranking after Poules

1 PASCU Bianca ROM
2 DIATCHENK Ekaterina RUS
3 THOMPSON Caitlin USA
4 GULOTTA Loreta ITA

25 ELLIS Sarah GBR
31 STENNER Robynne GBR

11 Eliminated

44 HENDRA Katie GBR

PM1
-1st April 2004, 11:28
Marcus Mepstead won 4/5 ranked 19
Steve Glaister 4/6 ranked 25
Alex Mepstead 3/6 ranked 46

86 entered - our 3 qualify

go boys and girls!!!!

Boo Boo
-1st April 2004, 11:46
Originally posted by PM1
Marcus Mepstead won 4/5 ranked 19
Alex Mepstead 3/6 ranked 46


Hhhmmmm (19 + 46 = 65....).... :( :( :(

Boo

PM1
-1st April 2004, 11:55
....oh poo.....hadn't realised - shows how switched on I am today (or not....)

Boo Boo
-1st April 2004, 11:58
Bad enough to meet a team mate in the DE, but your brother... :(

Poor Janet and Steve as well - very unpleasant... :(

Boo

PM1
-1st April 2004, 12:06
THIS is QUICK......i'm impressed

L64

Ellis bt Borsova
Kisel bt Stenner

L32

Budna bt Ellis 15/14 - poo!!

L4

Stagni
Bujdosa
Thompson
Diatchenk

At least the official site has now been corrected to show MCadet epee as Saturday - it wasn't on at all, and I was beginning to wonder a wee bit.....

PM1
-1st April 2004, 12:16
.............perhaps an April Fool's day trick????? sorry.....how frustrating.....and who does any Brit out there support in those circs?? It's bad enough when it happens in a minor domestic or club comp.

I'll ask Boy how things went when I speak with him tonight and report back.......I think they were going to watch some of it today, as well as a bit of training. I'm told there is little to distract them out there, except the mandatory McD's....and a dogems...

Boo Boo
-1st April 2004, 12:20
Originally posted by PM1
I'm told there is little to distract them out there, except the mandatory McD's....

Ah, dropping the "carb-loading" approach in favour of the "junk-loading" approach.... ;)

PM1
-1st April 2004, 12:27
..but they've got their Jaffas (hopefully for Satdi), and lots of straight sugars (School Bars, Winders), and nosh is paid for breakfast and dinner at the hotel.......and lads will be lads....

randomsabreur
-1st April 2004, 12:30
You stay the hell away, don't watch and support neither (as the 2 different coaches of Mariel Zagunis and Sada Jacobson did in the L4 of Lamezia) In that fight, if Mariel won, she would go to the olympics, instead of Emily Jacobsen. Coaches were under strict orders from fencers not to intervene, were on the other side of the hall and were told to shut up by the fencers themselves!

PM1
-1st April 2004, 12:48
Sounds like the orders I KNOW i'd get if I asked at any comp where it's a crunch match...I tend to be out of boy's eye line, and far enough away to pace. Seemingly relentlessly.....would NEVER chose to take my blood pressure at those times: even with the new medication.....

why am I proposing to fly out tomorrow (not yet confirmed).....:rolleyes:

PM1
-1st April 2004, 15:26
Hot off the text from my son about an hour ago (but i couldn't get onto the forum) -

Place is pretty awesome, metal pistes for miles. Alex beat Marcus (no score given), and then lost to "an emense Russian" in L16, and my boy reckons that there Ruskie should win.

And I've just scored a couple of cheap flights out tomorrow!!!! No hotel yet, but hey, who's to care....:grin: :grin:

gladiator
-1st April 2004, 15:42
The Cadet M Foil DE has literally just gone up as I was browsing their site...

http://www.bff-bg.com/plovdiv/docs/tableau_de_128.htm

Alex Mepstead made L16. After beating..
Marcus Mepstead in L64
Steve Glaister made L64 also.

UglyBug
-1st April 2004, 15:47
According to the tableau, Alex won his L32 fight 15/0. That's amazing!!

Prometheus
-1st April 2004, 15:58
hmmm. Not a default victory or something perhaps?

aao
-1st April 2004, 16:19
i would suspect a computer error as his next round opponent also won 15-0 and its slightly unlikely that 2 people on exactly ythe same branch of the comp will have won 15-0 one after the other.

But then again if he did well done to him!

most of my hopes lie in our junior foilists and epeeists but we'll see..... (but then again i am rooting for Turkey as well as GB)

PM1
-1st April 2004, 17:38
I'm told Buist has a poorly ankle again - hope not......

PM1
-1st April 2004, 17:43
That there boy of mine was right then: the pesky Russian who beat Alex won.....

Well done for the first day, boys and girls. Let's keep it up....

Prometheus
-1st April 2004, 23:47
Originally posted by aao
i would suspect a computer error as his next round opponent also won 15-0 and its slightly unlikely that 2 people on exactly ythe same branch of the comp will have won 15-0 one after the other.

But then again if he did well done to him! ]

That makes more sense - Alex is good, but that good? Perhaps.


Originally posted by aao
[B]
most of my hopes lie in our junior foilists and epeeists but we'll see..... (but then again i am rooting for Turkey as well as GB)

Can I root for France then based on that premise? - actually that's not a bad idea - or is that treasonous now? :) Vive la France et le Grand Bretagne (Real Politik) ;)

Rdb811
-2nd April 2004, 00:43
Originally posted by Prometheus


Can I root for France then based on that premise? - actually that's not a bad idea - or is that treasonous now? :

Yes - one thousand years of history can't be wrong.

doobarz
-2nd April 2004, 01:03
1 THOMPSON Caitlin USA
2 BUJDOSO Alexandra HUN
3 DIATCHENK Ekaterina RUS
3 STAGNI Livia ITA

28 ELLIS Sarah GBR
34 STENNER Robynne GBR

doobarz
-2nd April 2004, 01:05
1 KHOVANSKY Alexey RUS
2 NAUMENKO Alexander RUS
3 JOURNET Benoit FRA
3 STANEK Thomas GER

16 MEPSTEAD Alexander GBR
36 MEPSTEAD Marcus GBR
39 GLAISTER Steven GBR

3 Card Trick
-2nd April 2004, 07:39
MS Cadet

O'Connell and Crutchett through to incomplkete 64, both won 3/6

Gill eliminated

The site seems to be working quite fast.

Marcos
-2nd April 2004, 08:39
Originally posted by 3 Card Trick
MS Cadet

O'Connell and Crutchett through to incomplkete 64, both won 3/6


unlucky they got Fenwick and Downey respectively in their poules

3 Card Trick
-2nd April 2004, 10:27
WCE
Dolan and Corinna Lawrence through, Rhiannon Lawrence eliminated.

Boo Boo
-2nd April 2004, 10:30
Originally posted by 3 Card Trick
WCE
Dolan and Corinna Lawrence through, Rhiannon Lawrence eliminated.

Well done to Katie and Corinna, but a real shame/surprise for Rhiannon - she has had some really good results this year, hasn't she?

Boo

3 Card Trick
-2nd April 2004, 12:57
All Brits out in the 64 both MCS and WCE. Pity

doobarz
-2nd April 2004, 17:43
L64

40 KALISZAN Maciej POL bt 25 O'CONNELL Alexander GBR 15/12

27 ALASGAROV Jalil AZE bt 38 CRUTCHETT Anthony GBR 15/12

Final Results

1 SAMELE Luigi ITA
2 KALYNSIY Vasyl UKR
3 NEIGER Antoine FRA
3 PREVENIOS Marinos GRE

36 O'CONNELL Alexander GBR
43 CRUTCHETT Anthony GBR
53 GILL Thomas GBR

doobarz
-2nd April 2004, 17:48
L64

20 GRIBOVA Valentina EST bt 45 DOLAN Kathryn GBR 15/9

34 LEE Ba Da KOR bt 31 LAWRENCE Corinna GBR 15/4

Final Results

1 LEE Ba Da KOR
2 GRIBOVA Valentina EST
3 BYERTS Keri USA
3 JOULKOVA Ekaterina RUS

43 LAWRENCE Corinna GBR
51 DOLAN Kathryn GBR
71 LAWRENCE Rhiannon GBR

What LEE was doing in the poules I don't know, but it's not often I guess the 34th seed wins gold...

Obviously very hard fights, losing to first and second place.

gladiator
-3rd April 2004, 13:52
Cadet Ladies Foil:

Pools - Eliminated:
69 BRYARS Hannah GBR

L64
49 COMERFORD Shannon (CAN) beat 16 STOWELL Dominique (GBR) 15/11

10 TROIANO Sophie (GBR) beat 55 BESBES Sarra (TUN) 15/7

L32
23 KLEINBROD Ulrike (AUT) beat 10 TROIANO Sophie (GBR) 15/9

Cadet Mens Epee:

Pools - Eliminated:
87 LLOYD-JONES Richard GBR

L128
All GBR had Byes to:

L64

41 MUNZONE Edoardo (ITA) beat 24 HEYDON Graham (GBR) 15/13

37 MANCINI Lorenzo (ITA ) beat 28 TAYLOR Christopher (GBR) 15/9

I am sure that PM1 will update us on details on her return.

doobarz
-4th April 2004, 19:02
Poules

ELLIS Sarah GBR 2/6 -10
HUTCHISON Joanna GBR 2/6 -11
NICOLL Chrystall GBR 1/5 -9

Seedings

1 JACOBSON Emily USA
2 GERGACZ Veronika HUN
3 ZAGUNIS Mariel USA
4 VERGNE Carole FRA

44 ELLIS Sarah GBR
45 HUTCHISON Joanna GBR

Eliminated

NICOLL Chrystall GBR

L64

21 JEAN BAPTISTE Audrey FRA bt 44 ELLIS Sarah GBR 8/5

(error in print out? Injury?)

20 BIESINGER Tamara GER bt 45 HUTCHISON Joanna GBR 15/10

Final Placings

1 JACOBSON Emily USA
2 ZAGUNIS Mariel USA
3 KORMILITSYNA Svetlana RUS
3 VELIKAIA Sophia RUS

doobarz
-4th April 2004, 19:13
Poule Results

BARNETT Michael GBR 4/6 +5
RISELEY David GBR 4/6 +15
HALSTED Laurence GBR 6/6 +18

Ranking after Poules

1 CASSARA Andrea ITA
2 GANEEV Renal RUS
3 SEDOV Artem RUS
4 BALDINI Andrea ITA

5 HALSTED Laurence GBR
31 RISELEY David GBR
43 BARNETT Michael GBR

L128

5 HALSTED Laurence GBR bye
31 RISELEY David GBR bye
44 BARNETT Michael GBR bt 85 LJUNGBERG Johan SWE 15/5

L64

HALSTED Laurence bt PRANZ Renee AUT 15/11
RISELEY David bt GERMEAU Yannick BEL 15/12
IKARTS Andis LAT bt BARNETT Michael 15/12

L32

HALSTED Laurence bt TEISSEIRE Nicholas CAN 15/14
GANEEV Renal RUS bt RISELEY David 15/4

L16

ZHU Jun CHN bt HALSTED Laurence 15/6

Final Results

1 ZHU Jun CHN
2 GANEEV Renal RUS
3 KLEIBRINK Benjamin GER
3 MEYERS Brendan USA


So again GBR losing to eventual gold & silver medalists.

doobarz
-5th April 2004, 12:55
Poules

LAWRENCE Rhiannon GBR 2/6 -8
LAWRENCE Anneka GBR 3/5 3 (1 exclusion from poule)
CROOK Jayne GBR 3/6 2

Seeding after poules

1 JAMES Kamara USA
2 ZHAROVA Daria RUS
3 DEL CARRETTO Bianca ITA
4 CHRISTMANN Beate GER

47 LAWRENCE Anneka GBR
51 CROOK Jayne GBR
78 LAWRENCE Rhiannon GBR

L128

47 LAWRENCE Anneka GBR bye
51 CROOK Jayne GBR bt 78 BOKRI Rim TUN 15/8
49 BALCZO Dorottya HUN bt 80 LAWRENCE Rhiannon GBR 15/10

L64

ALEXANDRU Simona ROM bt CROOK Jayne 15/7
NOVAKOVSKA Tetyana UKR bt LAWRENCE Anneka 15/14

doobarz
-5th April 2004, 13:03
Poules

KIRBY Peter GBR 2/6 -8
O'CONNELL Alexander GBR 3/5 2
MORGAN BLAKE Daniel GBR 4/6 8

Seeding after Poules

1 GURIN Yuriy UKR
2 MARTIN Clement FRA
3 TURLYBEKOV Zholdasbek KAZ
4 HAGAMEN Timothy USA

22 MORGAN BLAKE Daniel GBR
33 O'CONNELL Alexander GBR
61 KIRBY Peter GBR

L64

33 O'CONNELL Alexander GBR bt 32 BEAUDRY Vincent CAN 15/13
4 HAGAMEN Timothy USA bt 61 KIRBY Peter GBR 15/6
22 MORGAN BLAKE Daniel GBR bt 43 HANCEANU Cosmin ROM 15/14

L32

GURIN Yuriy UKR bt O'CONNELL Alexander 15/10
BOGHICEV Franz bt MORGAN BLAKE Daniel 15/10

aao
-5th April 2004, 13:14
hmmmmm we don't appear to be doing particularily well all things considered, 2 16's and a few 32's had hoped the foilists might be able to make a last 8. Oh well at least the GB team can console itself that its out performing the turks who haven't had the best of times with the odd 32 or 2 and not much else.

Over to the mr buist an co for a sterling performance............

reposte
-5th April 2004, 14:19
I don't know if it means anything, after all, the move from junior to senior is never more hazardous as in fencing, but looking at the foil results, Russian foil is going to be the next hot thing after their little hiatus, Italy and Germany having their fun for the last five years or so.
Chinese fencing is also going to give some traditional fencing nations a great great headache.

aao
-5th April 2004, 14:32
Chinese fencing already is in the seniors as are the koreans.

If they keep this rate of progress up I suspect the Chinese will dominate the senior fencing circuit in a few years, they simply have too many people are too dedicated a training regime to fail. they will be much like the soviet block were in the 70's and 80's

Prometheus
-5th April 2004, 14:45
Originally posted by aao
Chinese fencing already is in the seniors as are the koreans.

If they keep this rate of progress up I suspect the Chinese will dominate the senior fencing circuit in a few years, they simply have too many people are too dedicated a training regime to fail. they will be much like the soviet block were in the 70's and 80's


...and we will continue to be dilettantes.:(

reposte
-5th April 2004, 15:14
Yes, no doubt. I'm more interested in the return of the Russians though, whome, like the French, have put in the most praised discipline in the sport and themselves, along with the French, suffered a little set back in recent years. Would be nice to see the Russian style again on the senior podium, or French, hoping it would be rather different then the last time I saw French finalists - the 2002 team finals against Deutschland... That must have hurt...

doobarz
-5th April 2004, 22:16
JWE

1 BRANZA Ana ROM
2 DEL CARRETTO Bianca ITA
3 MOELLHAUSEN Nathalie ITA
3 TAN Li CHN

JMS

1 LONTAY Balazs HUN
2 MOKRETSOV Ilia RUS
3 BOIKO Dmytro UKR
3 DRION Arnaud FRA

doobarz
-6th April 2004, 11:08
Poules

BENNETT Claire GBR 3/6 0
BRYARS Hannah GBR 4/6 +3

Seeding After Poules

1 DURANDO Benedetta ITA
2 NIKICHINA Viktoria RUS
3 GEURTS Djinn NED
3 VOUGIOUKA Vassiliki GRE

30 BRYARS Hannah GBR
43 BENNETT Claire GBR

L64

35 SWAIF Salma EGY bt 30 BRYARS Hannah GBR 15/12
22 BARTKOWSKI Maria GER bt 43 BENNETT Claire GBR 15/8

doobarz
-6th April 2004, 11:12
Poules

PERRY Nicholas GBR 2/6 -4
BUIST David GBR 5/6 +5
BENNETT Thomas Edward GBR 2/5 +1

Seeding after Poules (96 qualify)

1 SICOT Bastien FRA
2 MIKOLAJCZAK Krzysztof POL
3 HAUSWIRTH Peter AUT
4 TUO Tong CHN

11 BUIST David GBR
76 BENNETT Thomas Edward GBR

Eliminated

97 PERRY Nicholas GBR

Threestain
-6th April 2004, 12:40
And:

Last 128:

(11) BUIST David (GBR) Bye

(76) BENNETT Thomas (GBR) bt (53)_EL SAGHIR Ahmed (EGY)

Last 64:

(54) KAUTER Fabian (SUI) bt (11) BUIST David (GBR) 15-6

Tom's result pending

Threestain
-6th April 2004, 12:43
I have heard word that an incident has happened involving the Junior Men's foil team - anyone have more info?

Threestain
-6th April 2004, 13:07
Last 64:

(12) ALBORNOZ Santi (VEN) bt (76)BENNETT Thomas (GBR) 15-13

Threestain
-6th April 2004, 14:51
By the way I have just realised how dodgy my post looks about the foil team - not meant to be! Just heard of something happening, dunno what or any more details, before anyone gets too excited! (yes that's right I am the bringer of all kinds of rumours!)

haggis
-6th April 2004, 14:58
Stirrer!;)

Threestain
-6th April 2004, 14:59
Sorry!

Just I was bored. And there is nothing else to do in the lab except use the internet!

haggis
-6th April 2004, 15:12
Glad to see you're not wasting your time.:rolleyes:

randomsabreur
-6th April 2004, 17:38
Men's foil generally looked interesting from the results. 1 black card, and a Tunisian scratching rather than fence an Israeli. Would appreciate hearing any goss from those who are there!

DonnCarnage
-6th April 2004, 22:45
I heard that some of the foil team got drunk and were sent home...if thats true then what a bunch of tramps.

Well done for making us british fencers seem a bunch of fools, hay wait, most british fencers are fools anyway.

DC

P.S. this is what I heard from a fencer who went to teh WC

haggis
-6th April 2004, 22:49
Crikey! That sounds a bit of a blunder (to put it mildly)

PM1
-6th April 2004, 23:43
Ooooh, don't know about the foil team, but nothing would surprise me.......

Looks like Nick Perry had the same sort of bad day at the office that Rich had...R was first on piste and ended up waiting a lifetime before the 7th member of the poule was scratched. Then lost all 5 fights, 2 at least to 4/5. Graham and Chris went to 4 up each, which was brill, and then Graham lost to the eventual 3rd placed Manzoni (I think) in the L64, in a brilliant de - SO nearly got him...13/15 if I remember rightly, and up for most of the fight. Chris lost to Mancini, who won at Pisa last season, I think (the drugs are playing havoc with my memory).

Fantastic trip - thanks to the epee girls who supported the cadet epeeist boys, even lending them their trackie tops for the day (the boys were without ANY GB kit except 1 t shirt between them -- got to resolve this one for the future). Bulgaria is a country of vast contrasts, but much of it is beautiful - even if you have to search it out a bit. The peeps are generally brill, too. The town was nowhere near as bad as we feared.

Loads of us supported the English amateur boxing team who were in another exhibition hall. One guy was trying to qualify for the Olympics. One heck of a row was made by us lot, and indeed, he won on the Satdi, and then the whole comp the next day - the team were on the same flight back as me, and were very grateful for GB fencing vocal support.

We watched the cadet women's foil and cadet boys epee finals. the place was packed !!!! Keith was batman in the epee, and presided the more boring semi (ROM and ISR...... ). And then the Frenchman won, and deservedly so, but only after extra time, 8 each. Simple, clean and accurate. A deserved champion. Called Richar, I believe......saw HIM at the airport too.....

Oh, and there is a new method of evaluating currency : how many rides on the bumper cars would the cost of something buy - 2 and a half Leva to each £, bumper cars 1 leva a person, water 10l for about 1.80 leva, beer about 1.80 leva for 3/4 a pint, three course meal for 2 plus beer and coffee, 36 leva - and the latter in Sofia.

Champs appear to be being run extremely proficiently, apparently to the extent that whatever is asked for is provided, with a smile and speedily. Certainly no hanging around waiting for results.

Appart from the obvious, a good trip.

PM1
-7th April 2004, 00:37
I have the odd foto or 2, so will see if I can post them tomorrow....sleep.....

PM1
-7th April 2004, 10:26
Well now...

Mens foil didn't fence

Women's epee lost first round to Canada, 40/41.....

UglyBug
-7th April 2004, 10:35
Were the men's foil supposed to fence? Or is that what is spiking the rumours about naughty fencers being sent home?

PM1
-7th April 2004, 10:48
....I got my spies out on that one...as I understood it, they were due to fence until i read differently on here....I left Plovdiv on Sunday, so know no more first hand info just yet, but the call has been made.....

haggis
-7th April 2004, 10:58
That sounds extremely ominous.

PM1
-7th April 2004, 11:10
Just a bit more info for those who'd like to know how the comp is being run.

It is in the International Fair centre (looks like an industrial estate initially). 22 plus halls of varying designs and states of repair and use. Fencing in hall 10,11,12.

All individual poules are run in a massive exhibition hall on metal pistes - about 20 of them, all with extension lights. Most of the pistes are cordoned off with metal fencing. The first rounds of DE's are held there too. The last 32's are held in a smaller hall, with seating: 4 pistes, red, blue, yellow and green carpetting. And plants and flowers. And name boards and so on. Pistes not raised.

The semis and final are held in another large hall (all attached to each other), on a high stage, with the full monty for lights and scoring and name boards. Lots of seats, always full for the finals. And the refs are miked up.

The poule results came up very quickly, on several tv sets around the hall, on a rolling programme in large font, and then hard copy in about 3 places, too.

I learnt a lot about how FIE comps are run : last 32, give 'em all your weapons and body wires and they'll put a lastic band round them and test them, and do the same every round after that.

Oh yeah - coaches will coach from piste side whichever round you are in. Bit of a dissappointment, that one.....

haggis
-7th April 2004, 11:24
Originally posted by PM1
.
Oh yeah - coaches will coach from piste side whichever round you are in. Bit of a dissappointment, that one.....

Johnny foreigner. Terribly unsporting.:rolleyes:

Organisation sounds pretty slick though. Any comments on the foil refereeing- draconian penalties for flicks, broken-time, etc. or business as usual in the meantime?

All info from the front welcome.

Regards

Haggis

PM1
-7th April 2004, 11:45
I only paid attention to the WC final, so will ask boy for comments and report back.......don't hold the breath, tho......

Silly me thought that, if i'm told off for "coaching" at LPJS, I wouldn't come across it higher up - how naive can you be.....

haggis
-7th April 2004, 11:56
Fraid so. Nobody else seems to bother about piste-side coaching.

tigger
-7th April 2004, 12:04
The main reffing thing I saw in the foil was that the refs were told to make sure fencers saluted eachother and the referee properly after the fight...that's really going tomake the sport more spectator friendly! reffing was generally standard A grade reffing, with flick and bent arm attacks given. Tho there were slightly more hits on prep given, it wasn't significant.

Sadly in the W Cad Sabre the FIE used a couple of dodgy refs in the later stages. Thompson vs Diatchenk semi was marred by and appaling decision at 11-11, after which Diatchenk fell apart. It was one of those where the crowd gasps and then starts booing! I'm all for including the new refs from the newer fencing powers, but surely in the final stages only the best refs should be used, whereever they're from??

I didn't think the sideline coaching was particularly outrageous - just what you expect at major events. We need to stop being so Goddam sporting and start doing the same with our fencers!

reposte
-7th April 2004, 12:23
after which Diatchenk fell apart

Isn't he he senior WC'ion? Or am I confusing him with a Russian team memeber? Nope, Diatchenko is an Ukranian name...

PM1
-7th April 2004, 12:26
We heard some booing on Satdi, too - last 8, I think, WF: didn't see what it was about. As for using the better refs for later stages, it's all a tad political, isn't it, who refs any weapon at which stage?? or is my naievity rearing its head again.....

And I agree - there was quite some concentration on saluting. As for coaching - I consider myself grown up about his now: it was only my 2nd grade A comp after all........!!

Tigger - what did you think of the Swiss Chalet in the eaves of the final's hall??

reposte
-7th April 2004, 12:47
Well, I'm not sure if that qualifies for the fuss you've been takling about, might well have been felt only at about the Israeli delegation but there were stir ups with the Hatuel family members at the Israeli delegation, to those who know them it comes as no surprise.

Hassan
-7th April 2004, 13:04
I am rather alarmed about the rumours I am picking up from my offspring about the Junior Men's Foil Team. Shocking, but disappointing, news if true.

Before the mill really starts to turn, should not someone 'official' state the facts. Or are all the officials still in Plovdiv?

DrT
-7th April 2004, 13:11
Can't wait to hear about all this! :tongue: Boys will be boys, eh?

Erm, I mean, oh dear I do hope our national honour hasn't been sullied by childish antics.
:confused:

PM1
-7th April 2004, 14:11
Officials still out there, but I am told that there was over indulgence of alcohol (when none should have been taken anyway) by at least 2 members of the junior male foil team. Fire extinguisher(s) were let off, general bad behaviour and noise. Other people/teams were disturbed and complained. A third Brit became involved too, but I think not re alcohol/above mentioned stupid behaviour, and not a member of that team. All 3 sent packing, ergo no junior male foil team.

Apparently, the male offenders have been known to do silly things before, but not with such a decision being made. The teams have rules of conduct, and they appear to have been applied, from what I've been told.

I would be quite happy to be wrong, but doubt it.

:(

Gav
-7th April 2004, 14:27
I'm as curious as the next guy but remember and keep personal details away from scurrilous rumours. Last time we had a bunch of rumours placed on the board I had to go in and clean up a few threads following complaints.

Hassan
-7th April 2004, 14:28
This is as I feared.

It would be useful to learn of any similar incidents now or in the past involving other nations, but I suspect this is yet another example of that dreadful 'British' (or is it English?) disease involving young people not knowing how to behave abroad.

I thought fencing might be a little different...

PM1
-7th April 2004, 14:31
No names from me, Gav, not least because i wasn't there. I trust my source, too but this should be clarified next week, i hope.

Jambo
-7th April 2004, 14:36
Originally posted by Hassan
but I suspect this is yet another example of that dreadful 'British' (or is it English?) disease involving young people not knowing how to behave abroad.


I think its quite harsh to sully the name of other young people and young british fencers because of the acts of two(?) people. I doubt it has anything to do with being British or a fencer. Remember all the other people out there who behaved well.

Tech
-7th April 2004, 14:56
I am very sorry to have to report that after some incidents at the Hotel, when it was alleged that some Hotel property was damaged after some incidents involving alcohol, some GBR fencers were sent home and this resulted in the withdrawel of the Junior Foil Team.

The matter will be investigated fully after everyone has returned home and it is likely that the Disciplinary Committee will look at the matter.

Meanwhile it would be far better for eveyone concerned if the matter were regarded as "sub-judice" for now and details and/or names are not passed around till after the DC has reported. Speculation and rumours will not help anyone!

John Ramsay

srb
-7th April 2004, 15:52
John,

I take your point, but it gets very frustrating to the rest of us British fencers when it always seems to be the same 'bullet-proof' fencer involved in these incidents abroad.

Isn't it about time something is done about it?

srb

haggis
-7th April 2004, 16:04
Hmm. Can't imagine who you mean, srb.

Perhaps you could set up a poll listing the Junior MF team and see who gets the most votes as the people most likely to have been sent home. It doesn't comment on the incidents likely to be investigated by the Disciplinary Committee and since the fencers have already been sent home it would only be a speculative poll about matters of fact. Any takers? (I can see Kingkenny and Gav starting to twitch already)

Regards

Haggis

kingkenny
-7th April 2004, 16:46
:ignore: :stop: :endworld:

haggis
-7th April 2004, 16:49
Just kidding.

PM1
-7th April 2004, 16:52
I ain't sayin' nottin' maw......

Roll on Birmingham......

doobarz
-7th April 2004, 18:16
MF (27 entries)

1 CHINE CHN
2 ITALIE ITA
3 RUSSIE RUS

WE (25 entries)

1 CHINE CHN
2 FRANCE FRA
3 ROUMANIE ROM

18 GRANDE BRETAGNE GBR

Tubby
-7th April 2004, 21:34
does any of my subs to the BFA go on supporting a team that is supposed to be representing GBR at the WC?

If so, I'd be a bit more disappointed if one of our teams were shown the door than if they'd stumped up themselves, though thats not to say that I wouldn't still be disappointed. As a member of the BFA do I have a right to an account of what occurred, given the team is representing the association as well as GBR?
Is this fencing's version of La Manga without the sex? Do the chaperones operate a curfew for the kids under their care?

At least we have a code of conduct
http://www.britishfencing.com/U20%20Guidelines%20v4.5.html
by which all our young fencers should act within.:confused:

uk_45
-7th April 2004, 21:40
as i kid i won't tlk about curfews and the other stuff like that on trip i think when i went on the german exchnage i borke every rule within 24 hours!

Tubby
-7th April 2004, 21:48
On the BFA website is the following:

a Alcohol: Consumption of Alcohol is totally forbidden for athletes under age as defined by UK law, or the law of the country concerned. It must not be consumed by a Team/Squad member whilst en route, prior to, or following a competition event, training camp or team activities, without specific consent of the Party Leader. It must be remembered that alcohol is on the list of banned substances for fencing so during or twenty-four hours prior to the competition, alcohol is strictly forbidden to all Team/Squad members.

Thank god there's no testing at the rinky dinks as how else would I get the courage to put on my pink panelled breeches and get walloped by a bunch of kids?

uk_45
-7th April 2004, 21:52
Has there been a sober sabreur at a comp ever???

doobarz
-7th April 2004, 22:04
Originally posted by Tubby
does any of my subs to the BFA go on supporting a team that is supposed to be representing GBR at the WC?

I don't think so - I think all WC funds are provided by UK Sport.

doobarz
-7th April 2004, 22:08
Originally posted by uk_45
Has there been a sober sabreur at a comp ever???

Obviously yes. I think you might be trying to make light of a fairly serious situation. For two individuals to get the team excluded, something must have been seriously amiss.

Whilst sabreurs have the stereotype of partying hard, there are some (I don't nessecarily include myself in this) who take the athletic side of the sport seriously. I would think it would be expected of any full international fencer to be within that group.

uk_45
-7th April 2004, 22:19
I was not refering to high level fencers here. As any one who gets a team excluded is a %"(*£%"(£% well........ you get the idea

Tubby
-7th April 2004, 22:33
Originally posted by doobarz
I don't think so - I think all WC funds are provided by UK Sport. D'ya think UK Sport may be interested in the value for money aspect of the WC, I know if this was one of my schemes/investments I'd be asking some questions, maybe not as tough as those put to the Eurotunnel board, but some tough ones nevertheless which all end with "and what action have you taken to ensure any future investment by my organisation will be safeguarded........"

doobarz
-7th April 2004, 22:40
Originally posted by Tubby
D'ya think UK Sport may be interested in the value for money aspect of the WC, I know if this was one of my schemes/investments I'd be asking some questions,

That is why the qualifying criteria for the WC has got harder and harder over the last few years, certainly.

Prometheus
-7th April 2004, 22:41
Clearly intelligence wasn't one of the criteria then.

pinkelephant
-7th April 2004, 23:14
Originally posted by Tubby
Do the chaperones operate a curfew for the kids under their care?



As these are Juniors, i.e. U20, most of them are over 18 and therefore not "kids".

pinkelephant
-7th April 2004, 23:17
Originally posted by Tubby
It must be remembered that alcohol is on the list of banned substances for fencing so during or twenty-four hours prior to the competition, alcohol is strictly forbidden to all Team/Squad members.



This is now out of date - Fencing is NOT on the list of sports for which alcohol is a banned substance. That's not to diminish the potential seriousness of the situation, which is sub judice anyway, but let's at least get our facts straight.

Tubby
-8th April 2004, 00:43
Originally posted by pinkelephant
This is now out of date - Fencing is NOT on the list of sports for which alcohol is a banned substance. That's not to diminish the potential seriousness of the situation, which is sub judice anyway, but let's at least get our facts straight. That posting by me was a straight cut and paste from the BFA website - if the BFA want to peddle that "fact" naive suckers like me who rely on the governing body for guidance will continue to get the "facts" wrong. As a mover and shaker in the BFA can you influence them to get the website corrected?

This post is not speculating on events at the WC - I'm talking in general

As regards being U20, a curfew is a curfew regardless of how old you are. If you are part of a managed team in any sport if the boss says to be in bed by whenever then you should comply. If the team manager can give permission for you to go on the p155 then it also stands that he can give instuction for you to be back in your hotel room by whenever. Not that its ever likely, but if my child was to be lucky enough to be part of a managed trip, I'd expect it to be just that. Managed. However the level of management I'd expect would be in direct relationship to the seriousness of the comp. Rinky dink comp then rinky dink management. Serious comp then serious management.

It doesn't take a genius to know that when you put a group of kids together overseas theres going to be high jinks and sex. The many thousands of condoms dished out at the athletes village in Sydney tells its own story. So as a dad of a aspiring fencing daughter am I thrilled to know this? And to know that it will be the team management to ensure she isn't put into harms way?

Anyway I suppose amateur sport is amateur sport.

Sophie
-8th April 2004, 09:20
"Before the mill really starts to turn, should not someone 'official' state the facts. Or are all the officials still in Plovdiv?"

Seems the mill has started turning.

Some very pertinent comments from Tubby (plus others as well, I'm sure).

Please, please can someone from the BFA or elsewhere reassure us all that when our junior fencers (under 16 or otherwise) are away from home they are properly looked after.

And also that the reputation of our country at this sport is safeguarded for the majority of us who behave correctly and have such a passion for the sport.

uk_45
-8th April 2004, 09:27
Keith Where are you???

I was under the impression that fencing was still on the list.

pinkelephant
-8th April 2004, 09:53
Tubby - I didn't say there shouldn't be a curfew - merely that we are probably talking about adults, not kids.

The status of alcohol changed on Jan 1st - and we know how long it takes these things to filter through. The Internatiional rules tend to be updated once a year, when the new International season starts.

pinkelephant
-8th April 2004, 10:15
I see Turkey got a w/o against Puerto Rico in the Men's Epee team. Did Alp arrange for their kit not to turn up in time?:moon:

pinkelephant
-8th April 2004, 10:18
Look at the logo at the top of the Bulgarian World Champs page which is a pair of fencers. Now focus on the top half of it only. What does it remind you of?

Nick Chapman uses this logo for all his piste numbers!

uk_45
-8th April 2004, 10:19
Don't spose you've got a link have you?

pinkelephant
-8th April 2004, 10:22
There's a link in the first posting on this thread.

Here it is again

http://www.bff-bg.com/plovdiv/

J_D
-8th April 2004, 10:29
I have no idea what you could possibly be seeing there Elly, titter titter! :tongue:

As for our Representatives in Bulgaria, maybe they should have chosen football as a sport instead

PM1
-8th April 2004, 10:50
I can vouch for the cadet epee male responsible adult - Nick Chapman- and cadet/junior epee female - Sue Benney - on the basis that I was there for a while, and I know how the male cadet o/seas trips are run. On the boy's last night, even tho' we aet with them, I deferred to Nick as to what they did/consumed. HE was still responsible for the boys. I have no problems with how he "manages" them, the team manager macro managing, not micro. The youngest appear to be well supported. Perhaps it's those who are classed as adults or TREATED as more mature than they are that get into a pickle.

There were several adults around most of the time. Even if there were few GB tracksuits/t shirts, most people knew who everyone was, I think. Might have been a good thing that there were so few......

And if UK Sport money was around for these WC's, I haven't seen any......

And Keith will still be in Plod, I guess - party tonight....

PM1
-8th April 2004, 11:08
Can I just add to this last post, as I was unable to edit it in time...

Nick was responsible for my son, remember, whether I was there or not, and indeed, even though I WAS there - it would have been wrong for me to have intervened in how he was managing the team UNLESS any of them were being put in danger, I believe.

My view is that no team manager can be expected to be with evryone all the time: at this WC, each age and weapon and sex appears to have their own "responsible adult"/manager, at least at cadet, and I'm happier with this. Some cadets make the junior team, too. Each group who flew out appeared to have a nominated adult responsible for travel etc.

I think team management is worthy of a thread on its own, perhaps, and will form part of the guides to fencing that several people are working on at the moment, especially for the newer and/or younger fencer and their parent/guardian/coach. Guidelines apply for home as well as foreign comps.

There is too much interest in what has happenned at Plovdiv for it NOT to become common knowledge IN DUE COURSE , but those who are involved must be given the opportunity to put their positions to whoever needs to know and will make any judgements, without outrageous tales being spun. That is NOT to say that there should be no discussion on how teams are managed, and what the guidleines might reaonably say etc., but on another thread, guys ??

aao
-8th April 2004, 11:20
Originally posted by pinkelephant
I see Turkey got a w/o against Puerto Rico in the Men's Epee team. Did Alp arrange for their kit not to turn up in time?:moon:


no no they managed to place an order for their kit a couple of months before the event :moon: :moon:

srb
-8th April 2004, 11:36
Originally posted by PM1
There is too much interest in what has happenned at Plovdiv for it NOT to become common knowledge IN DUE COURSE , but those who are involved must be given the opportunity to put their positions to whoever needs to know and will make any judgements, without outrageous tales being spun. That is NOT to say that there should be no discussion on how teams are managed

PM1,

I agree entirely with what you say, but that doesn't deal with the possibility that some people may be simply unmanageable.

This is a subject that I feel very strongly about, as some years ago I was witness to a serious incident in Burgsteinfurt. The team was well managed, but an incident still occured. Just because someone is a good fencer, it should not make them untouchable.

srb

PM1
-8th April 2004, 11:43
I could not agree more. We maybe have a few fencers who think that they are Teflon coated, and this must not be the case. Perhaps there could be the situation that results aren't everything, in that they will perhaps not guarantee the right to represent the country.

I have to say that I am not fully aware of all the available sanctions in all circumstances (just those that have been made clear for the comps my boy has attended), but will look them out - they need to be clear, and I would like to see them included in the handbook being prepared.

J_D
-8th April 2004, 11:58
Does the BFA have the authority to prevent the attendance of a fencer or to impose a ban in a similar way the FA does in football?

I ask in total ignorance here, but as PM1 says, shouldn't more than just ability on the piste be taken in consideration in chosing a national team

srb
-8th April 2004, 12:08
Originally posted by J_D
Does the BFA have the authority to prevent the attendance of a fencer or to impose a ban in a similar way the FA does in football?


J_D,

After the incident in Burgsteinfurt that I mentioned above, 3 fencers were banned for 12 months, and 1 fencer was banned for 3 months.

srb

PM1
-8th April 2004, 12:27
Check out the BFA website, home page "Technical Rules and Regualtions": Loads of info there. Also, Under 20 Guidelines for Trips on the home page.

Gav - can we filter this out to another thread??

Tubby
-8th April 2004, 12:59
Originally posted by pinkelephant
Tubby - I didn't say there shouldn't be a curfew - merely that we are probably talking about adults, not kids.

The status of alcohol changed on Jan 1st - and we know how long it takes these things to filter through. The Internatiional rules tend to be updated once a year, when the new International season starts. Fair comment. I refer to anyone less than half my age as kids, unless I'm ringing the police about a group of "kids", in which case they're men as the cops won't come out if they think they might be minors.

Re the website.... :shrug:

PM1
-8th April 2004, 13:29
...Mens Sabre, ranked 9th, finish 8th out of 21, having lost to Ukraine ranked 1st, 20/45

...mens epee, ranked 22nd, finish 24th out of 32, having lost to Korea, 36/45

:upset: but still time to :party: :party: tonight.....

Tech
-8th April 2004, 13:38
Please refer to http://www.britishfencing.com/Disc.html where the powers of the BFA are clearly defined.

I am sure everyone feels that fencers should not behave in a fashion to bring discredit on GBR and the BFA but I strongly suggest that it is best to leave it till the matter has been formally considered by the Disciplinary Committee. The results of a DC are reported in the Sword under the new bye-laws agreed at the last AGM.

srb
-8th April 2004, 13:45
Let's just hope that clause 12.1.1 is observed.

srb

PM1
-8th April 2004, 13:48
Oh yes....

So far as I'm concerned, this thread has come to a natural close, since the fencing by GB in the Worlds has also come to a close.

Whilst the results of a DC are reported in The Sword, not everyone interested receives it, and it will not be published for some time. Hopefully by then, curiosity will have flitted away, but no doubt someone will start a new thread when the facts are known and any sanction applied.

But we can still start another thread re sanctions etc, IF anyone wishes to do so, elsewhere. I for one do not propose doing so at this time, but it might be interesting to see how our buddies from other continents approach behaviour of representative fencers on foreign trips, don't you think??

Sophie
-8th April 2004, 14:07
srb - how did you manage to get all the way to 12.1.1?

I got up to 1.3 and my brain switched off!

(Did, of course, head straight for 12.1.1 after this!)

reposte
-8th April 2004, 14:20
but it might be interesting to see how our buddies from other continents approach behaviour of representative fencers on foreign trips, don't you think??

Whilst a drunken rampage in a hotel room can't be good for good old england's image, you'd better put it to mal education rather then alchohol.
Most of Russian fencers used to go on heavy drinking parties after comps, I don't recall damaging hotel rooms as a part of my coach's stories.
Many use to have a cup of Vod..., sorry, tea, before an important boot in order to get loosened up just right.
You should do better to rectify the behavioural patterns of the people rater then their drinking habbits.

reposte
-8th April 2004, 14:27
BTW, as to the actual question, Two of the Hatuel fencers got into trouble.
One refused to stand to the French national anthem and another one refused to remain in his hotel room inspite of the security attendant's orders.
The delegation chief was furious and decided to ship them both back then and there, but the high cost of such a move, combined with the setback that will be caused to the Israeli rankings in the team event, they remained and will stand in front of a disciplinary commitee in Israel. They are likely to be expelled from the Israeli national cup events.

doobarz
-8th April 2004, 16:16
Cadet

MF 1xL16 2xL64
ME 2xL64
MS 2xL64

WF 1xL32 1xL64
WE 2xL64
WS 1xL32 1xL64

Junior

MF 1xL16 1XL32 1xL64
ME 2xL64
MS 2xL32 1xL64

WF 2xL64
WE 1xL128 2XL64
WS 2xL64

Laurence
-9th April 2004, 15:31
my my, the speculating has really started hasn't it.
not a very clever idea speculating. interesting though.

uk_45
-9th April 2004, 16:51
The words of wisdom there.

TBennett
-10th April 2004, 18:53
Having just got back from plovdiv i think that a few things should be made clear.

1) it is unkind to be talking about all the fencers out there as if you are all perfect. i saw what happened and a few things were done that were not good but as far as i am concerned, it isnt any peoples place on this forum to pass judgement on them.

2) dont spread rumours, it isnt nice. no matter how unsubstantiated/true they may seem if u do not know the facts, dont spread ones that may not be true

3) Plovdiv was a dump. full of gypsies.

4) Prices were good, £4 could get a good meal

5) Alex Mepstead won 15-0 in the L32 of cadet foil coz his opponent pulled out of the comp

6) venue was ok, not the best i have been to

7) most people had bad days, performance was not what it could have been for most people. but hey, everyone has bad days at world champs

8) the worlds is a lottery. random countries (Korea, China, Japan) that are very good do not do many (if any) of the A-grades and so do not have seedings for the poules. this screws everyone up and the DE becomes a lot worse

e.g. Dave Buist did really well in the poule but lost to Kauter (SUI) in the 64. Kauter is a VERY good fencer and has won A-grades. it is an unfortunate draw.

9) it happens - get over it.....


I will be at Birmingham on the Sunday (epee) so if anyone needs to know anything, i may talk then

Regards,

Tom Bennett

TBennett
-10th April 2004, 19:03
alteration to number 3)

Plovdiv was a sorta dump. wouldnt want to spend more than a week there. there were enough gypsies to be an annoyance, it wasnt full of them tho.

reposte
-11th April 2004, 06:40
Plovdiv was a dump. full of gypsies.


there were enough gypsies to be an annoyance, it wasnt full of them tho.

Am I reading right?

Australian
-11th April 2004, 20:49
Originally posted by reposte
Am I reading right?


Originally posted by Hellphire
alteration to number 3)

obviously not :)




back on topic - i've been told what happened, and its nothing too serious, and should have no lasting implications in my opinion

DonnCarnage
-11th April 2004, 22:45
Originally posted by Hellphire
Having just got back from plovdiv i think that a few things should be made clear.

It isnt any peoples place on this forum to pass judgement on them.


3) Plovdiv was a dump. full of gypsies.


Regards,

Tom Bennett

OKAY..... stop topic. What the f**k are you saying here! You are saying dont pass judgement when u make a blatent racist comment against an entire culture. THAT comment is the exact same thinking by people in germany in the 1930's which led to 100's of thounsands of gypsies being killed in concentration camps.

That MENTALITY led to genocide against jews, poles, ukranians, russians, slavs, and so on. I dont think you fully understand what you are saying. And Austrailian, how the hell can you say to reposte to ignore what was written. Turning a blind eye to comments like this is a lesson hitler taught us, at the expense of 10's of millions of lives (obvoisuly you are, like benet and his other racist friend, stupid).

I know who you are bennet (or maybe you remeber mumballygrumbly). You are lignorant and complety stupid, cocooned in you little sheltered life, not having a clue about anything outside. Yes some gypsies are bad, and some whites are bad, and some asians are bad, etc, but to make any kind of negative, and even postive, dicrimination creates seperation and elitism between poeple. I bet your the kind of person who would complain if a traveler decided to buy the house next door, knock it down, and put up a caravan instead. I bet you think all asalyum seekers should be kicked out of the country too.

To tell you the truth bennet, i really didnt think you were like this. Obvously, i'm wrong. What other sterotypes have you got??? The reason why ethnic genocide took place in kosovo was because there was a general feeling that kosovans were somehow inferior in culture.

Anyone who disagrees with what bennet says, please follow this simple formual. Replace the word gypsies with black. Does this still sound like a racists comment??? IF you still dont agree, well done, you think along the same lines as Adolf Hitler.

BTW, i got some gypsie friends, hence i take this as a personal insult (we are not all enclosed in our little shells). Hence, I demand you apoligize for making racist comments.

I dont often post anymore, but when i see a comment like this, you cannot turn a blind eye to it.

DonnCarnage
-11th April 2004, 22:50
Concerning the events, I dont really give a crap, though it did make the people involved look like a bunch of p****s.

Risely, if what i've heard is true, then thats sick!

Okay, no more talk about the foil team, its concerns whoever was involved and noone else. It's stupid that i have to even point that out.

DC:pirate:

tigger
-11th April 2004, 23:14
QUOTE - 5) Alex Mepstead won 15-0 in the L32 of cadet foil coz his opponent pulled out of the comp

Weird, as I sat and watched Alex fence really well in the L32 against a Belorussian and win it fair and square EARNING his place in the L16. Facts not a strong point of that particular posting...

doobarz
-12th April 2004, 09:39
As the BFA has signed the Racial Equality Charter for Sport, perhaps as part of the discplinary hearning that Tech has said will take place, these comments can be reviewed? Assuming that Hellphire really is Mr Bennett.

I would agree with Donn Carnage totally that they do appear to be Racist - perhaps they are out of context?

Tubby
-12th April 2004, 10:54
hear hear... though, does this forum have any status with the BFA.

Having been on the receiving end of racist attacks I can only comment that what Hellphire wrote is at the mild end of the scale, however it starts somewhere and mild as it is, it did make me flinch.

It obviously isn't a fencing thing as GBR fencers are used to looking at the presentation ceremony (if they stayed to watch) and seeing johny foreigner bagging the medals and hopefully, hopefully, aspiring to be like them.

kitten
-12th April 2004, 11:59
I think that comparing Hellphire to Adolf Hitler is a *little ridiculous* and slating him for an innocuous comment like that is an over-reaction at best. I can see why it upset you, but I have to disagree with your response.

However, if you wish to discuss racism, in sport or outside it, perhaps you should start another thread, as it is a problem generally that needs to be discussed.

That's my opinion anyways, I don't mean to offend.

uk_45
-12th April 2004, 12:26
Yes, In agreement with the above

PM1
-12th April 2004, 12:55
Several comments, and then I'm done.

Hellphyre : you may well wish to reconsider several of the comments in your thread. They have caused offence and may not be a true refection of your views.

Don Carnage: Your comments may also have caused offence, and whilst language used may have been done so loosely and perhaps in haste and ire, it may not have taken into consideration the context in which the original comments (however innappropriate) were made. On the face of them, Hellphyre's comments do cause me concern. You make personal comments about Hellphyre and a member of the foil team which is NOT what this forum is for. I do not ignore the thrust of your post.

Kitten: A seperate thread regarding racism generally or in fecncing in particular, may be appropriate. My view is that it is such an important topic, and this current thread so specific, that a new thread would be appropriate.

Tubby: several BFA board members read and may contribute to the forum. "Status" might not be the appropriate phrase, but views expressed are likely to be noted, and on other threads have ellicited replies to the effect of "thank you and I'll look into that".

And yes, people not only STAYED to watch finals and closing ceremonies, they went back to the complex from wherever they were to do so.

Doobarz: any disciplinary hearing mentioned by Tech will be about any incident occuring at the Worlds: hellphyre's comments were not made there. And Hellphyre is Tom and he was at Birmingham yesterday, but I merely passed the time of day before he beat my boy.......

The Worlds is over - do we need to add any more to this thread?? As i've posted before, there is such interest in the potential disciplinary action that, when that is resolved, a new thread is likely to be raised, and the relevant info will go into The Sword in any event.

Someone start a thread on racial equality in sport....??

Threestain
-12th April 2004, 14:01
I think far too much stock is taken by what is written on this board. Remember that not many people take a long time to consider their post before they write them - they treat them as if in a proper conversation. And of course unlike conversation their comments remain on thread for days or weeks. I believe what he is actually referring to is a sort of oppressive nature that he might have felt (which is probably nothing to do with the "gypsies" but I wasn't there, neither were most of the rest of us) - ill-advised words and structuring of his comments but not something that immediately screams "I'm a racist". Obviously he should have explained the point he was making better, but then I think his main idea was to give people a proper picture of what actually happened at the worlds so convoluted conjecturing would have be stopped. In other words perhaps a more constructive critiscm initially would have helped and then if he persisted then a post like above.

If you believe that you can know someone from one piece of conversation/quick post on here then you are possibly more at fault that someone who makes an inappropriate comment. For you have never done wrong. Ever. Also I didn't think it was illegal to have such views - stupid, abhorrent and wrong in my eyes yes, but not illegal unless you do something with them. Besides as you already knew him Donn Carnage you would realise that this was not a comment in keeping with his outlook on life and race etc.

reposte
-12th April 2004, 14:30
what I feel I have to say is this:
Whilst almost everyone posting after Donnecarnage have paid the tribute to the god of political correctness, the true gist of your posting was that D's posting was too strong, Hellfire may have been misunderstood, the discussion is ill placed and so forth.
You seem much more alarmed at the tone of the discussion offending your sense of civility then the actual offender.

No matter how great your ill at ease was at reading donn's posting, imagine the burning insult that a member of this forum would feel being of a gypsy origin, or being of any other origin that died alongside gypsies at the holocaust.
Being one, and knowing full well what it was to be a European Jew a few decades ago, imagining quite vividly how it would be a few decades to come, I will not stand silent over such beaviour.

By the way, I posted my rather silent protest at the morning of Sunday, DonnCarnage posted his at night, or rather monday morning, over the time elapsed I entered several times periodicaly to see whether there was any response, and seeing a great number of this forum's leading members registered.
None took the bother to address this disturbing issue, only after DonnCarnage offended their sense of taste and civil decency that people's responses, disappointing as they may be, started to poor in.

uk_45
-12th April 2004, 14:37
Threestain although yes the vast majority of members to this forum are common fencers as am I, some members hold very high places in the sport weather they be referees or the President of the BFA. And thus have great knowledge of the sport.

Australian
-12th April 2004, 17:14
Originally posted by reposte
By the way, I posted my rather silent protest at the morning of Sunday, DonnCarnage posted his at night, or rather monday morning, over the time elapsed I entered several times periodicaly to see whether there was any response, and seeing a great number of this forum's leading members registered.
None took the bother to address this disturbing issue, only after DonnCarnage offended their sense of taste and civil decency that people's responses, disappointing as they may be, started to poor in.

most/all of us were at birmingham :) (and fencing badly, well at least me and PM1's boy did :mad: *sigh* )

Tubby
-12th April 2004, 18:56
hopefully the 2 weeks of "fencing badly" has been exorcised as PM1's boy has Yorkie duties next week where hopefully the white rose will bloom and blossom. C'mon you tykes.

PM1
-12th April 2004, 19:08
...seems a happier lad now....when asked if he was going to do well at Winton, the response was - yeah, we're gonna win - shall I tell him the region was only promoted as a result of last year?? Nah - why spoil his fun......!!

Another Worlds another year.

Keith.A.Smith
-12th April 2004, 19:44
Dear All,

This will be the subject of a BFA Disciplinary process and as such it would be prejudicial to discuss it on this web page. Immediate action was taken with three fencers being withdrawn from the GB team and sent home the next day to London.This was in no way prejudicial to futher action being taken.

Speculation from those who are on this web site and who were not in Plovdiv is unhelpful and indeed may be unfair. You have a right to know once the facts are established fully and the Disciplinary Hearing has been followed through.Where legal minors are involved the rules are different.

Once the Disciplinary Process has been concluded the findings and actions of the BFA will be published but not till then. That is simply a principle of natural justice.

For the good of all involved I do hope that this thread will now go silent.

Keith

TBennett
-12th April 2004, 19:49
OK - i made a few mistakes when writing my initial reply, i was tired from the trip back and slightly annoyed at what i had read...

i had been told that alex's opponent had pulled out - obviously he hadnt and so i sincerely apologise for that. my bad..

i wont explain about the gypsies thing, i have had some unpleasant experiences (nothing dodgy - lol) and i feel sorry for them - hence making myself feel crap for not helping them... ok?

whoever it was that was insulting me i would rather you apologise - if you knew me properly then you would know that i am an alright person (btw, doncarnage -WHO THE HELL ARE YOU ANYWAY?)

i am however, angry that you call me a racist as that is uncalled for. you all have really blown this out of context...

apologies to anyone else that i have offended as i was out of order i admit. maybe next time i will keep quiet.

i do not condone what went on at the worlds - i prefer to remain neutral.

uk_45
-12th April 2004, 20:17
Kingkenny, Wingnut, Gav

Please lock this thread i think it has gone to far i have PM'd you.

DonnCarnage
-12th April 2004, 22:46
Hellphire wrote on -12th April 2004 06:44 PM:
what the hell is your problem!!!

if people ask my opinion i give it...

who are you anyway - i dont like to cause offense to anyone and if i have, i am sorry.

i take it you are a mepstead (marcus) - sorry i didnt see you at the worlds and well done for your result. i do not mean to be harsh at all to be honest but then again i do not like to be insulted...


If you openly admit you think gypsies are scum, then expect to be insulted. Probably in your cosy little school, most students are okay with making racists comments, but on a board where intelligent people read, you should not expect everyone to be as ignorant as yourself.

Dont you people agree with me? Shouldnt racists in this country be insulted??? Are not they themselves the scum of the earth. I am not comparing you to Hitler bennet. I am comparing you to WHY Hitler got support or indifference to his policies. Today people belive that something like that could never happen, but what happens if everyone thinks along the same lines as bennet??? What will happen next??? It is important to educate the ignorant, otherwise who knows what those kind of thoughts could lead to.

Where the hell did you get the notion that I should apoligize? I got no problem with insulting or pointing out racists comments. Oh and btw, I do not live in London, so your guess is wrong.

Why should this thread be locked? I wonder, if I had not written my post, would we be where we are now? Or would have people ignored bennets 'little' comment (excepty reposte) and carry on, turning a blind eye.

DC

DonnCarnage
-12th April 2004, 22:49
Originally posted by Hellphire
maybe next time i will keep quiet.



Good idea

uk_45
-12th April 2004, 22:50
may i please beg people not to post here as the best thing to do with this thread is to leave it, lets not make any thing worse ok please to much has been said already.

Barry Paul
-13th April 2004, 10:05
Dear All,

In general we try not to close threads on this site because everyone has the right to have their say however; in this instance I think we should make an exception. The thread has been blown out of all proportion and nothing of any positive value has come from it for the best part of a week now. It is up to British fencing to determine the outcome of the events that took place in Plovdiv and there is no point in forum members speculating about what should or did happen. On the matter that has occurred more recently I must agree with Threestain:


Originally posted by Threestain

I think far too much stock is taken by what is written on this board. Remember that not many people take a long time to consider their post before they write them - they treat them as if in a proper conversation. And of course unlike conversation their comments remain on thread for days or weeks. I believe what he is actually referring to is a sort of oppressive nature that he might have felt (which is probably nothing to do with the "gypsies" but I wasn't there, neither were most of the rest of us) - ill-advised words and structuring of his comments but not something that immediately screams "I'm a racist".

I do not believe the comments were meant to have racial undertones and I am certain that Hellphire was just trying to say that he felt threatened. Apologies have been made and no more needs to be said on the matter.

When you post please be careful that you donít say anything that could be misinterpreted as your comments will be here forever rather like my interesting English and spelling!


Barry Paul