View Full Version : Tomorrow's Achievers - epeeists <17

-14th April 2004, 09:44
I'm ging to post this in several places, so please bear with me.

There is a Tomorrow's Achivers scheme which has been running for young foilists for some time now. The scheme for epeeists is being launched this month, sabre imminently. If you are or know of any epeeists or potential epeeists WHO ARE ELIGIBLE TO FENCE FOR ENGLAND and who would like to attend either one or both open-to-all-who-are-elligible training days on Sunday April 25th in Warwick or Durham on May 9th, please pm me. The first day is being lead by Nick Chapman, cadet boys team captain and coach, the second by Bela Kopetka. We are looking for youngest age about 10 or 11, oldest probably 16, but talk to me about this if in doubt.

I shall have more info posted on the England Youth site as soon as poss. The cost will be about 15 per day. The first 2 sessions are OPEN and therefore NOT by invitation only. A third open session is being arranged in the south for later in the year. Whilst they are not being arranged by LP, these 2 sessions are being run the day after an LPJS event, in an attempt to encourage people to participate.

An England Squad, with T shirts and hoodies, will then be formed.....

This info was made available at the BYC's, PSC and Arnold comps, so is not "hot off the presses".

Look forward to hearing from folks........


3 Card Trick
-14th April 2004, 15:43
I hope the creation of an England Squad will lead to a transparent and fair selection for the England Youth Team that rewards the best fencers during a season by selecting them.

-15th April 2004, 00:15
...if it's up to me - and it's not - it would.....:grin:

-15th April 2004, 09:03
I believe (as I was reffing at the comp and know the youth team manager) that the selection criterion this year was the top 2 from the EYCs and in most cases, the higher ranked of the 2 3rd places. That is unless someone had a good excuse i.e. injury or non-availability through an international committment in which case they might get the 3rd place instead.

This fair and transparent enough? If not, what would be better

-15th April 2004, 10:45
Yes, you are correct so far as I am aware.

England have a specific competition to select out of all competing at that competition who will go on to fence at the quads: not sure if the other countries do, or whether they go from that season's ranking lists. It CAN mean that the "top" ranked fencers for GB do not qualify for the quads for England, for whatever reason they do not/cannot fence on selection day. Many other sports allow the athlete several attempts at qualification.

Some have made comment on this in the past, tho' I'm not aware of any young fencer having done so, at least not in my hearing.

Team England selection is nowt to do with me (tho' Squad Engalnd is....ha ha ...POWER !!!!!!):grin:

So get people who might enjoy a training day to contact me - they do NOT have to be Buist/Perry/Willis standard, and if they are, we should already know about them anyway. Selection of the actual squad comes later.....but top 8 BYC/EYC/LPJS are definite candidates, if eligible for England.

3 Card Trick
-15th April 2004, 11:53
Originally posted by randomsabreur
I believe (as I was reffing at the comp and know the youth team manager) that the selection criterion this year was the top 2 from the EYCs and in most cases, the higher ranked of the 2 3rd places. That is unless someone had a good excuse i.e. injury or non-availability through an international committment in which case they might get the 3rd place instead.

This fair and transparent enough? If not, what would be better

England is the only one of the Home nations who do not use ranking lists to select their team. Indeed the Welsh specifically exclude their closed championship from the selection process.

The real problem is that so few of the best England fencers attend the EYC which has already become a poorly attended event.

My understanding is that the other Home Nations are not happy that England does not have a system which is likely to select their best team - comments were made about devaluing the event.

Because for the last few years the England Team has been made up of fencers from the EYC's rather than the best in the rankings many now regard the event as something of a farce and at a busy time of the season choose to stay away from the EYC.

As to a transparent system the qualification criteria this year was not published and was only announced on the day. Indeed some who asked for the criteria in advance were unable to obtain a definitive answer.

But he Ho England tend to win so I guess they feel they can do what they like, even if many of the best English fencers no longer want to be a part of the gang.

-15th April 2004, 15:25
I take the point about the time of year for the EYCs, but given the timing of the quad, where else can you put it so that it doesn't clash with cadet foreigns or Junior A-Grades.

As for having 1 selection day, I think that is a good thing because it does show an ability to perform on particular day (as the quad itself is) rather than attend a large number of competitions and pick up a few results that way.

If fencers choose not to attend the EYCs when the fact that it is impotant for selection at least was publicised, then that is their own look out if they want to be selected.

I think that the teams at sabre at least were about the best possible as other than Nicoll the fencers who were ranked higher than the winner and second place for the EYCs are eligible for other home nations (NI and SCO) I don't think that the other logical person to be selected (Hendra) was ranked above those who ended up going for the U16s at the time of selection.

Surely a competition is a better method of selecting people for what is in effect a domestic event (unlike the worlds where international results must be more important) than having an arbitrary ranking cut off date.

-15th April 2004, 15:45
so do you think that the british team should be selected off one competition such as the Junior cahmpionships as if they perform well on that one day they will at the worlds aswell. i think you will find that the best fencers are the ones at the top of the ranking list. it is ridiculous how you can suggest that it is the best way of selecting a team when half of the top fencers cannot attend due to a clash of competition were the othr competition for epee was invitational for only the top fencers. and at least myself and tom bennet went to it instead and i know others were invited and chose to do neither. i think it is a farce of a competetion which maybe was a good idea at first but with the efficient ranking lists at cadet and junior levels no longer needed.

Andy W.
-16th April 2004, 08:33
My daughter has ben going to the foil TAs for about 18months now and it is a very worth while event, very grateful for the coaches and organisers who give up their weekends to do it.

Hope the new TAs work as well for the other weapons ( I thought there was one for epee already?).

As for team selection, it is an age old complaint in nearly every sport we do. Whatever system is used, it will be open to manipulation or allegations of manipulation ( viz British Youth Skiing a few years back), so a process that includes as many results as possible and a team trial <championship> would seem best. Ramking lists are easily manipulated by astute selection of events so cannot be used in isolation. However, if people can't be 'bothered' to turn out for selection events then they can hardly gob off when they 'strangely' don't make the team. Its called commitment!


-16th April 2004, 17:08
commitment is one thing but when you have a choice of two competitions to go to and one of them is invitational and they will pay your travel exspenses and you get to fence the best fencers in the country and the other is a joke of a competition were no one worth while to fence will turn up and you will probably end up forking out a load of money. its not a hard choice to make. does this mean im not commited????

3 Card Trick
-16th April 2004, 17:52
Its called commitment!

Yes, and I think that the committment of our top young fencers is excellent, what is needed is a selection system that rewards that effort. After all, our Cadet and Junior Teams are selected via the ranking systems, as are our senior teams. In fact even the England senior team is selected from the rankings.

The real problem is that the EYC's are no longer, perhaps never were, attended by the best available fencers.

The EYC is a relatively new creation and the result seems to have been very small entries and interesting team selections.