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bydande
-14th April 2004, 10:07
I have a question - and my question is this:

How are junior/less experienced referees meant to keep up to date with FIE conventions that are not in the rule book?

A good example of why I ask this question is the thread on whether guard to guard clashes count as corps-a-corps. This is not mentioned in the rule book but pinkelephant said 3CT's opinion was based on an instruction from the FIE arbitrage.

Another example is when does passing occur? Some people say it is when any parts of the fencer bodies overlap (i.e. could be just their toes) and yet others say it is only when the shoulders pass. As I couldnt find a definition of passing in the rulebook I assume there is another FIE convention covering this issue.

So how are us non-FIE referees meant to keep up to date with these FIE conventions? Can we get copies of these FIE arbitrage instructions or do we have to rely on chinese whispers filtering down to us?

Straight after I qualified as a ref I did register on the BFA website for the referees email subscribers list - but I havent received a single email in the 10months since then. Does anybody know if the referee's email subscription list is working - anybody else had any luck with it? (Maybe my registration email failed?)

It is almost as if becoming a better referee in Britain (or Scotland at least) is viewed as some mystical test of ones ability to learn in a vacuum - "Grasshopper not until you can take the pebble from the Master (FIE) referees hand can you call yourself a referee and carry the yellow, red and black cards of omniscient power."

Keith.A.Smith
-14th April 2004, 20:48
Dear All,

When I was Chairman of the Refs Committee I did an update after each world champs and Mike Thornton turned this and much else into his excellent guide on how to referee.

I am about to do another based on Plovdiv FIE Meeting. The problerm is with the exception of Ian Hunter going to Trapani in 2003, I am the only GBR ref to have attended a world championships since 1998. I have published up dates in the Sword regularly and will do so based on PLovdiv.

Incidentally guards touching is not corps a corps and was simply the idea of one FIE member and has been ignored.

Keith

uk_45
-14th April 2004, 21:21
Is that the one which is on the LP download page?

bydande
-15th April 2004, 08:09
Originally posted by Keith.A.Smith

Incidentally guards touching is not corps a corps and was simply the idea of one FIE member and has been ignored.

Keith

Keith - thanks for responding.

Unfortunately your reply about corps-a-corps is a bit of a surprise. You say that guard to guard clashes are not corps-a-corps but on another thread on this forum 3CT says that they are. Given that you are both FIE referees this is very confusing for the rest of us.

How does one resolve this apparent difference of opinion?

PKT
-20th April 2004, 04:28
So, the natural question is:
Who is the better qualified ref, Keith or 3CT?

That said, i'll still side with Keith, based on
~ my own experience as a competitor as well as a ref;
~ my experience as an observer and videographer, all 3 days of it, at the recent Vancouver ME World Cup Gran Prix. Don't take my word for it, watch my DVDs and you can tell that there were a lot of guards a-clashing and not once was "Halt!" called as a simple g-t-g = c-a-c interpretation of the rules. Remember the refs there were all FIE As and Bs.

If you're interested in my DVDs email me:
patrick68tam@yahoo.ca

PK

ihunter
-27th April 2004, 23:14
Having been 'nominated by Keith as the lazy b***** who went to a World champs without spreading the word on 'how to referee' I feel I must say in my defence that Alitalia conspired to make me miss the refereeing seminar before the champs. Those who are sufficiently interested will look at who the nominated FIE arbitrage were and conclude that this was no bad thing.
I couldn't possibly comment.
I am suitably ashamed.
Did 2 finals though.

yours aye
Ian

Australian
-27th April 2004, 23:39
Originally posted by ihunter
Those who are sufficiently interested will look at who the nominated FIE arbitrage were and conclude that this was no bad thing.
I couldn't possibly comment.


you'll have to explain to me over a pint sometime, hehe

Chris
-28th April 2004, 00:27
Originally posted by PKT
So, the natural question is:
Who is the better qualified ref, Keith or 3CT?


That may be the natural question, but it's not really the point. I'm an inexperienced fencer, and have no idea what corps a corps is. It's never happened to me, and I'd just do whatever the referee in charge told me to do anyway. However, since it does happen, it should be laid out in a rulebook so that there's no confusion. There seems to be enough problems with interpretation already without making everything even more complicated by having no solid rules on points that could otherwise be definite.

Australian
-28th April 2004, 09:23
Originally posted by Chris
That may be the natural question, but it's not really the point. I'm an inexperienced fencer, and have no idea what corps a corps is. It's never happened to me, and I'd just do whatever the referee in charge told me to do anyway. However, since it does happen, it should be laid out in a rulebook so that there's no confusion. There seems to be enough problems with interpretation already without making everything even more complicated by having no solid rules on points that could otherwise be definite.

corps a corps is body contact, and FIE conventions say that this does not include the guard

bydande
-28th April 2004, 09:42
Australian,
I think you are missing Chris's point.

The question is not whether guard-to-guard clashes count as corps. The issue is:- how are fencers meant to find out about such FIE conventions when there is no procedure for disseminating them down to interested rank and file members.

I mean, you go out and spend X number of pounds on buying the rulebook - and you discover that it doesnt actually tell you all the rules because all of the FIE conventions are missing!

Wouldnt it be nice if you could purchase a booklet that contained all of the FIE conventions as well.

Anybody interested in writing one?

Chris
-29th April 2004, 13:30
Why isn't there an up to date website at least that is well publicised with all of the information on? Would presumably be easier than a book, and reasonably accessible.

mawk
-29th April 2004, 13:41
Originally posted by Chris
Why isn't there an up to date website at least that is well publicised with all of the information on? Would presumably be easier than a book, and reasonably accessible.

Chris,

There's a link at the top of the page of this forum to the complete FIE rules - with British amendments - which are being discussed here. The direct link is:

http://www.leonpaul.com/download/rules/BFA_Rules_2002_MJT_update2004.htm

Be warned that this is a HUGE file - 1.3MB - and will take a while over a dial-up connection.

Chris
-29th April 2004, 15:57
ahh, thank you. I'll have a look at them as soon as I get the chance...haven't had time to do much fencing recently though as I've had loads of work on, but the weekend should give me a bit more free time (will have handed in the last two summatives for my degree by then).

Keith.A.Smith
-3rd May 2004, 14:21
Dear All,

I am not suggesting that Ian Hunetr is lazy at all and do wonder why he said that. I am simply pointing out that we have had limited access to FIE wisdom. Most of it has been gleaned by me and then Mike Thornton has distilled it after a great deal of effort on his part into his Refereeing Manual which is very good. If you contact him you can get a copy. Indeed I think it may be avaialble on line but you have to ask Mike.

I have just done an update after Plovdiv and Mike is curently turning this into a presentable format but no earth shattering revelations.

Keith

Barry Paul
-4th May 2004, 17:52
Originally posted by Keith.A.Smith
Dear All,

. Most of it has been gleaned by me and then Mike Thornton has distilled it after a great deal of effort on his part into his Refereeing Manual which is very good. If you contact him you can get a copy. Indeed I think it may be avaialble on line but you have to ask Mike.

Keith

Avaliable on line on our website Click on F.I.E. box above This manual is on same front page as is the F.I.E. rules. Barry Paul

gbm
-4th May 2004, 18:25
When can we expect the updated version (edition 3?)?

pinkelephant
-5th May 2004, 00:29
Give him a chance - he does actually have to earn some money occasionally.

J_D
-5th May 2004, 08:56
Is the download the same as the Official Rule Book?

gbm
-5th May 2004, 11:48
No - it has been updated to reflect the new FIE rules and is thus not the official rulebook; it is probably more accurate.