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JohnL
-31st March 2015, 16:25
Good luck to all GB fencers at the World Championships, starting tomorrow.

Cyranna's Father
-1st April 2015, 07:12
Dickinson cut at 86 after the poules

Whelan at 32 to face KIM Daejin (KOR) 33, the winner probably to face Horowitz (USA) 1

Stigant at 31 to fight Marenco (ITA) 34, the winner probably to face Preziosi (ITA) 2

Cyranna's Father
-1st April 2015, 07:19
Lawson 27 after poules

Wakefield 30

Simms-Lymn (JAM) 36

Fosu (GHA) 86 - eliminated

one4all
-1st April 2015, 07:22
Poules results in for Cadet Men's and Women's Epee http://fie.org/media/news/77
CME Devlin Stigant 31 and Roo Whelan 32 have byes into 64. Matt Dickenson missed the cut and finishes 86 out of 110.
CWE Rebecca Wakefied and Danielle Lawson have made a solid start both obtaining 4/6 in poules.
Good to see Matt Haynes is refereeing.

Cyranna's Father
-1st April 2015, 07:23
Whelan through to L32 15 : 12

confirm faces Horowitz (USA)

Purple Fencer
-1st April 2015, 07:38
Come on Horowitz! (sorry...he's been a client of mine in the past)

jelly
-1st April 2015, 07:42
Does anyone have a link to a results page on a website?

Cyranna's Father
-1st April 2015, 07:45
Stigant departs 6 : 15

http://www.fencingworldwide.com/en/

Whelan on piste at around 9.45 a.m.

Cyranna's Father
-1st April 2015, 08:25
Wakefield out in L64 5 : 15 V Tejeda (MEX)

Cyranna's Father
-1st April 2015, 08:48
Roo live on green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX5jz1Qhvuw

Cyranna's Father
-1st April 2015, 09:00
Whelan departs in L32 10 : 15 V Horowitz (USA)

Cyranna's Father
-1st April 2015, 09:07
Lawson through to L32 15 : 13 against Zivanovic (SRB)

Simms-Lymn (JAM) out in the 64

Mike Selig
-2nd April 2015, 08:43
Caitlin Maxwell through to the L16 in the girl's sabre.
Jess Corby just out in the L32 15-7 to Klimova (RUS) - Caitlin's next opponent.
Maria Chart cut after poules (something seems to have happened there?)

In the boy's foil, all 3 British fencers were ranked in the 60s after poules. Dominic De Almeida then beat Harry Bird 15-13 in the 128, and Daniel Kiss also got through to the L64 with a 15-7 win. Both fencing now, but in the 2nd venue so not televised.

Francophile
-2nd April 2015, 08:43
After poules:

Daniel Kiss seeded 63, beat Al Asmi Hamad (68) from Qatar 15-7 to go through to last 64. Will have number two seed Jet Shang Fei Ng from China

Harry Bird (61) drew Dominic De Almeida (68) - both GB, alas. Dominic won 15-13. He will have number four seed in the 64, South Korea's Seong Jong Lee in the 64.

Results can be seen at: http://www.fencingworldwide.com/en/competition/4474-14/direct/2

Video is now live at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOyF-drME68

cesh_fencing
-2nd April 2015, 08:46
Finishing off yesterday

Lawson went out in L32. Losing 15-12 to Lee Elabd USA

Horowitz who beat Roo Whelan went on to win the whole event..

Francophile
-2nd April 2015, 08:47
Daniel loses 13-15 to the Singaporean (not Chinese). He had been leading 13-12.

Francophile
-2nd April 2015, 08:52
Dominic out 15-8 to number four seed.

Nick E
-2nd April 2015, 09:19
Finishing off yesterday

Lawson went out in L32. Losing 15-12 to Lee Elabd USA

Horowitz who beat Roo Whelan went on to win the whole event..

Results say Horowitz finished 9th, losing in the L16 to 17th seed Ukranian (who then lost in L8).

Mike Selig
-2nd April 2015, 09:32
Close for Maxwell! Out 15-13 to the Russian Klimova. Was 8-1 down at the break then turned things around to get a 13-10 lead, but couldn't close out.

Maxwell still has another year in cadets.

coach carson
-2nd April 2015, 09:41
Close for Maxwell! Out 15-13 to the Russian Klimova. Was 8-1 down at the break then turned things around to get a 13-10 lead, but couldn't close out.

Maxwell still has another year in cadets.

What happened in her L32 fight? 14-14 and her opponent scores with a single light. Masks off. Then suddenly they are back to replay the hit, Maxwell wins...

Mike Selig
-2nd April 2015, 09:55
What happened in her L32 fight? 14-14 and her opponent scores with a single light. Masks off. Then suddenly they are back to replay the hit, Maxwell wins...

I was wondering about that as well.

Best guess is her opponent's maskwire was unclipped during the point, Jon pointed it out and it became apparent on the replay. There was also some white light stuff happening towards the end of the fight, not sure if that had anything to do with it.

Certainly at 9-3 in her L16 Maxwell got a 1 light which was overturned after replay because her mask wire was off, so maybe something similar...

cesh_fencing
-2nd April 2015, 10:14
Results say Horowitz finished 9th, losing in the L16 to 17th seed Ukranian (who then lost in L8).

Not sure what I was looking at???

MrsGrizz
-3rd April 2015, 08:09
CWF After pools

Jade Rowland 35th
Yasmin Campbell 10th

MrsGrizz
-3rd April 2015, 09:57
CWF final results

Yasmin 20th

Jade 28th

Keith.A.Smith
-3rd April 2015, 12:19
I think the Cadet events are now over. Can anyone tell me how many top 8, top 16 and top 32 results we achieved?

I could not find the full results.

Nick E
-3rd April 2015, 12:42
I think the Cadet events are now over. Can anyone tell me how many top 8, top 16 and top 32 results we achieved?

I could not find the full results.

Mens Epee: 1 x 32 and 1 x 64 with 106 fencing
Mens Foil: 2 x 64 with 86 fencing
Men's Sabre: 3 x 64 with 71 fencing
Womens Epee: 1 x 32 and 1 x 64 with 88 fencing
Womens Foil: 2 x 32 with 67 fencing
Womens Sabre: 1 x 16 and 1 x 32 with 58 fencing

Not included those outside L64.

Francophile
-3rd April 2015, 15:50
... were an outstanding advertisement for our sport. Both women's foil and men's sabre went to 14-14. Intelligent fencing, outstanding athleticism, and nail-biting finishes. Kim's flunges in the sabre were truly astonishing. If you have half an hour, it could not be better spent watching the two finals. Make a cup of tea, put your feet up, and enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc9Pld9sHWc Alcohol is also optional, of course.

Keith.A.Smith
-4th April 2015, 13:28
Interesting to see the team relay today. I would not be surprised if after Rio this appeared at the Olympics, along with mixed teams at each weapon. The IOC has made it very clear no new medals for fencing.

Good luck to the GB Juniors and hope they give us something to cheer.

Double Riposte
-4th April 2015, 15:34
Interesting to see the team relay today. I would not be surprised if after Rio this appeared at the Olympics, along with mixed teams at each weapon. The IOC has made it very clear no new medals for fencing.

Good luck to the GB Juniors and hope they give us something to cheer.

The IOC has also made general statements about a desire to see more mixed gender events across all sports in the long-term future. Seems like a nice little concept, some good fencing today. GB lost to Poland in the last 16 by the way.

Keith.A.Smith
-4th April 2015, 16:05
The formula was first tested at the senior worlds in Lisbon and has been used at the Youth Olympics too. The IOC like it, but in the past the big fencing nations opposed it.

For the Olympics very few countries would have six qualified individuals to actually take part. The mixed teams of 2 male and 2 female at each weapon would also be interesting.

Both team formats will be very tough for GB to do well in.

Good luck to the Juniors in Tashkent.

dshevy
-4th April 2015, 17:27
The formula was first tested at the senior worlds in Lisbon and has been used at the Youth Olympics too. The IOC like it, but in the past the big fencing nations opposed it.

For the Olympics very few countries would have six qualified individuals to actually take part. The mixed teams of 2 male and 2 female at each weapon would also be interesting.

Both team formats will be very tough for GB to do well in.

Good luck to the Juniors in Tashkent.

I realise the intention of the mixed format and whilst it may improve the IOC view of team fencing as a spectator sport and make it more interesting for spectators in general it hardly seems to be beneficial for the fencers involved.

The tactics specific to each weapon become redundant as you could spend 6 minutes building a 10 hit lead by working hard at tactically building epee hits and then see it completely removed by 30 seconds of sabre only for foilists to hit off target or togethers and end up in a 1 hit finish every time and as the order is by the luck of the draw, there is no set formula. I'd feel that there is little point being an epeeist say, if my fencing counted for nothing as all the work to get hits didn't really mean anything in the example above.

The rules are also quite clear on coaches and that only 1 can be with the team during the whole day and that that coach has to be named the day before so again, fencers who aspire to high level individual fencing loose the benefits of weapon specific coaching as part of their personal development and as a source of advise across a match. You only have to look at the relationship between top national coaches and the effect this has on their fencers when they get to work not only on individual fencing but team matches in that chosen weapon too.

As a final note, i know we are used to the idea of the top 3 ranked fencers being selected for team events but with Cadets and Juniors battling exams and education whilst fitting fencing around that, are we not at a risk of seeing numbers of fencers progressing to a top level reduced as there is less room for selection at major championships as part of the team event?

I ask only as i guess, given your time as President, you have more insight into why mixed teams have been tried.

Nick E
-5th April 2015, 07:35
Event going into L64 with two of the squad still in the competition. After the poules Nichols ranked 17th, with a bye into the 64. Curren Jones ranked 90th, but won his 128 fight 15-12. Sinclair ranked 69th after the poules, and lost in the 128 15-9.

149 fencers competing.

ED_R
-5th April 2015, 07:46
Tommy curran jones into last 32. Harrison Nichols through too.

GedC
-5th April 2015, 07:52
After the poules: Harrison 17th Aml 69th, Tommy 90th.

Aml out in the 128. Tommy and Harrison both through to the 32 having come from behind in their 64 bouts.

cesh_fencing
-5th April 2015, 07:58
WF 1st round

Fihosy 3 up 3 down
Rowland 2 up 4 down..
Chart 2 up 3 down

Ranking after 1st round not up yet..

cesh_fencing
-5th April 2015, 08:23
WF 1st round

Fihosy 3 up 3 down
Rowland 2 up 4 down..
Chart 2 up 3 down

Ranking after 1st round not up yet..

Ranking after 1st round

Fihosy - 39
Chart - 49
Rowland -56

Entries 81

Cut at 70, so all should have bye into L64

GedC
-5th April 2015, 09:24
Tommy loses to Vismara 15-8.

GedC
-5th April 2015, 09:34
Harrison into last 16.

Keith.A.Smith
-5th April 2015, 09:39
Good luck in the top 16 fight. Good luck to the WF in their 64 fights and beyond.

Double Riposte
-5th April 2015, 10:05
Rowland out 15-5, Fihosy out 15-10.

Chart wins though, 15-14 and through to the L32.

Keith.A.Smith
-5th April 2015, 11:31
Any update on Harrison?

ED_R
-5th April 2015, 11:35
Should be starting Any moment

Keith.A.Smith
-5th April 2015, 11:48
Well done to Harrison. Now into the top 8. Great fight. Good luck for the next one.

cesh_fencing
-5th April 2015, 13:17
Harrison out in the 8. Solid result, following winning the Elite Epee men's last weekend..

Keith.A.Smith
-5th April 2015, 13:37
Well done to Harrison. Best GB result so far at the world championships.

Keith.A.Smith
-5th April 2015, 13:58
How did the WF end up?

Cristiano
-5th April 2015, 14:32
WF L8

Taffel (Usa) Kikuchi (Jpn) 15-11
Fu Yiting (Chn) Szymczak (Pol) 15-12
Ebert (Ger) Massialas (Usa) 15-9
Harvey (Can) Moreno Valiente (Cub) 15-9

cesh_fencing
-5th April 2015, 20:28
Well done to Harrison. Best GB result so far at the world championships.

Just looking back at some old results.

In 2006 Harrison was 26th in the BYC Under 12s, and 9 years later he gets 8th at world juniors. Just shows that we need to keep kids going, even if they struggle at first as in the end a diamond may just come out of the rough..

Well done again Harrison.. Lots of hard work went into this result and with another year in the age-group there will be another 12 months of work for another shot at the World Juniors..

Nick E
-6th April 2015, 06:44
Already into the L64.

Rai ranked 40th secured a bye. Birch ranked 67th secured a win in the 128. Lloyd at 75th loses in the 128.

cesh_fencing
-6th April 2015, 07:59
Both MF out in L64

cesh_fencing
-6th April 2015, 08:03
WS

Daykin 0 up 5 down
Chart 2 up 3 down
Maxwell 2 up 4 down

Mike Selig
-6th April 2015, 09:48
Maxwell through to the L32 with a 15-14 win. Great effort so far given she's still got another year of cadets left. Her L32 about to start now on the blue piste.

Coupe du Nord
-6th April 2015, 10:09
Maxwell loses 15-4 to Choi

Coupe du Nord
-7th April 2015, 12:45
Mens Junior Sabre Results.

Webb 22nd.
Van Hoffelen 31st.
Deary 86th.

pinkelephant
-7th April 2015, 13:01
MF team narrowly lost to France in the L16. Now fencing Brazil in the 9-16.
http://live.p2dev.de:82/en/competition/live

Nick E
-7th April 2015, 13:03
After the poules we had McCarthy ranking 31st, Powell 89th and Stanier 105th (cut).

Powell lost in the 128, with McCarthy out in the 64.

GB based fencer Simms-Lymn ranked 49th after the poules, but also lost in the 64.

Ronald Velden
-7th April 2015, 13:08
Mens Junior Sabre Results.

Webb 22nd.
Van Hoffelen 31st.
Deary 86th.

A lot of Mens Sabre Matches appear to be very tight affairs. JJ lost 15-14 to Bancsis [Hungary] who was 5th
in recent European Junior Champs and was bronze medallist in Dormagen JWC.

Van Hofflen lost 15-10 to Gert [Germany].

Surprisingly no Russian or Italian made the Podium as one might have expected.

Ronald Velden
-7th April 2015, 13:13
A lot of Mens Sabre Matches appear to be very tight affairs. JJ lost 15-14 to Bancsis [Hungary] who was 5th
in recent European Junior Champs and was bronze medallist in Dormagen JWC.

Van Hofflen lost 15-10 to Gert [Germany].

Surprisingly no Russian or Italian made the Podium as one might have expected.

Slight error one Italian still in last 4. Top seed left in is De Visscher [seeded 2nd after poules who is a Belgian!

tigger
-7th April 2015, 16:54
De Visscher is 12th in the world and won bronze at Dormagen. The Belgians have had a full-time fencing school in Flanders for some years now. A number of young fencers are funded to locate and train there full-time and the have two full-time coaches and an assistant/fitness coach. Seppe Van Holsbekke was the first successful sabreur to be produced by their coach and now they have another generation in juniors.

Ronald Velden
-7th April 2015, 17:37
De Visscher is 12th in the world and won bronze at Dormagen. The Belgians have had a full-time fencing school in Flanders for some years now. A number of young fencers are funded to locate and train there full-time and the have two full-time coaches and an assistant/fitness coach. Seppe Van Holsbekke was the first successful sabreur to be produced by their coach and now they have another generation in juniors.

I was aware of the result in Dormagen, However,Visscher's only other result of significance this season was JWC in Algiers where he came 1st. Most of his other results were L32/64 or in case of seniors 128. I don't think that anyone would have expected him to win a bronze medal.

The results in Tashkent are revealing that sabre is no longer a weapon dominated at cadet and junior levels by
Eastern/Central European and Major Fencing Nations as has been the case in past.

I do know a little about the Belgians. In contrast to Britain their sabre programme is restricted more or less to
one club. That is also I believe very similar to what is happening in Japan where most of their sabreurs are recruited from foil programme.

Keith.A.Smith
-7th April 2015, 19:38
Which team events are left that GB is competing in? I am thinking MS and ME?

Keith

Mini
-7th April 2015, 20:11
Which team events are left that GB is competing in? I am thinking MS and ME?

Keith

WS as well maybe?

checkmate91
-7th April 2015, 21:11
De Visscher is 12th in the world and won bronze at Dormagen. The Belgians have had a full-time fencing school in Flanders for some years now. A number of young fencers are funded to locate and train there full-time and the have two full-time coaches and an assistant/fitness coach. Seppe Van Holsbekke was the first successful sabreur to be produced by their coach and now they have another generation in juniors.

I seem to remember a small contingent coming over from Belgium to the Bedford LPJS a few years ago when the current top-age U20s were in the U14s and they dented a few egos that day! I'm sure it was J-E de Visscher and Pieter de Vos, both 1995 fencers, amongst others. So no great surprise from my perspective and, as Jon suggests, at least one of them had been in the mix for some time now.

JohnL
-7th April 2015, 21:18
The results in Tashkent are revealing that sabre is no longer a weapon dominated at cadet and junior levels by
Eastern/Central European and Major Fencing Nations as has been the case in past.


It's interesting (at least to me located here in NY) to see the performance of the US fencers at the World cadets/Juniors.

In the individuals they had 18 fencers reach the L16 of their event, converting 3 to Gold and 3 to Bronze performances.

As we've discussed previously, their system of linking fencing performance to college grants is proving effective in getting a large number of children into the sport and keeping them (the highest performers) there through High School and then college. That see's them to about the age of 21-22 when they can then make a decision as to whether to carry on or not and have a realistic view of their future potential.

If the US isn't currently considered a "Major" fencing nation, they should be, with the potential to go further.

Ronald Velden
-7th April 2015, 21:51
It's interesting (at least to me located here in NY) to see the performance of the US fencers at the World cadets/Juniors.

In the individuals they had 18 fencers reach the L16 of their event, converting 3 to Gold and 3 to Bronze performances.

As we've discussed previously, their system of linking fencing performance to college grants is proving effective in getting a large number of children into the sport and keeping them (the highest performers) there through High School and then college. That see's them to about the age of 21-22 when they can then make a decision as to whether to carry on or not and have a realistic view of their future potential.

If the US isn't currently considered a "Major" fencing nation, they should be, with the potential to go further.

The United States is most certainly a major fencing nation today. The sport was on a similar level to Britain at the beginning of 1990s, but was kick started with the success of Iris Zimmerman their first ever World Champion who won Womens Cadet Foil in 1996 at age of 14.

Her personal coach at Rochester was Buckie Leach who devised the National Foil Programme, which became the
model for all weapons in USA. He moved to New York Fencers Club in 2001 and is still very influential as a National Coach.

Since that time the US Fencing has grown dramatically and now has over 100,000 fencers. It is almost certainly
the largest fencing federation globally. France by contrast which had 80,000 members not so long ago has shrunken to just 50,000 members.

It is interesting to note that the USA does not have a Centralised National Centre compared with France who do.
Their programme has recruited a large number of international class coaches and that has undoubtedly improved
competition in the sport domestically

I made the point that De Visscher's result today was surprising, because as I pointed out Belgium has a very small number of sabreurs. They have been coming for many years to Camden International at Cadet level and
in that time none made a final tableau. The best result was De Visscher who finished 12th.

Similarly Japan won this year the Women's Cadet Sabre Silver Medal. Emura won Camden International in 2014.
Another of their sabreurs reached last 8 in mens junior sabre today.

Both those results are remarkable, because in 2012 Japan sent its Cadets to Camden and almost all finished near
the bottom of the tournament. Last year they spent a week in London and I spent some time talking to their
team manager. I discovered that in Japan there is only one weapon foil fenced at club/school system, but what they do in case of epee and sabre is they hive off fencers from their national foil squad. Fencers in their National Cadet Squad are training TWICE a day in morning and evening. That explains the dramatic improvement in their
results. They also recruited at beginning of last year a former Chinese Olympic Medallist as their National Sabre
Coach who came with team to London.

pinkelephant
-7th April 2015, 22:43
Which team events are left that GB is competing in? I am thinking MS and ME?

Keith

ME team came 18th.
MS team have Uzbekistan in the L 32 tomorrow.
MF team finished today in either 11th or 12th but the result against Egypt is not showing.
WS team finished 15th.
WE team have Canada in the L 32 tomorrow.
WF team finished 10th.

So the answer to the question is MS and WE.

GedC
-8th April 2015, 08:45
Tom Curran Jones - JME - has kept a blog of the competition. You can find it here:
http://tomcurranjones.weebly.com/blog

Coupe du Nord
-8th April 2015, 15:25
JMS

GBR beat Spain 45 43 to finish 13th. It was a close run bout GBR had an 11 point lead going into the last bout.
JJ had to struggle to win.

Rudd
-10th April 2015, 09:51
Since that time the US Fencing has grown dramatically and now has over 100,000 fencers. It is almost certainly
the largest fencing federation globally. France by contrast which had 80,000 members not so long ago has shrunken to just 50,000 members.

It is interesting to note that the USA does not have a Centralised National Centre compared with France who do.
Their programme has recruited a large number of international class coaches and that has undoubtedly improved
competition in the sport domestically



I was wondering where you found the 100K figure. The latest figures from USFencing shows list 27,000 approx (competitive/non competitive).

As you stated fencing is driven more by the clubs that the national body. Those foreign coaches weren't hired by USFencing they were hired by or set up their own clubs. France is starting to move away from the centralised system and Italy has alwas been Club based. I really don't understand why GB have taken the opposite approach.

More important they are developing strong domestic coaches. Three of the four members of the Men's foil team have American coaches. (Greg Massialis and Dan Kellner.)

Miacat
-10th April 2015, 10:27
France is starting to move away from the centralised system and Italy has alwas been Club based. I really don't understand why GB have taken the opposite approach.

France is definitely not moving out of the centralised system - they have 5 Poles for the Cadet/Junior fencers and then INSEP in Paris for the Seniors. Although the fencers train in these places they all have their own clubs who fund them.

coach carson
-10th April 2015, 12:59
In terms of results, we can point to successful nations that are highly decentralised and others that are centralised. For me that makes the argument irrelevant. In an ideal world you'd have both high performing clubs and a strong national squad structure.

The fact is that most of the recruitment, development and results will come from clubs. In my opinion, the centre should be leaving the development of cadets and juniors to clubs and for the strongest clubs to act as regional hubs. I'd go as far as to say it's a waste of resources for BF and for the fencers to be travelling too and from London when they have perfectly good training facilities at home and the competing pressures of sport, education and life. These resources would be better applied to senior national squads in all 6 weapons.

Whether centralised or decentralised the national squad structure needs to add additional value. Otherwise there is no point it being there.

In the UK we have too few performance clubs and a national structure too focussed on one and a bit weapons and yet to demonstrate the value it is adding. National and local are part of the same coin, we are just not spending wisely at the moment.

Gav
-10th April 2015, 14:18
I agree with Phil.

On top of that I would also point out that comparing UK with US is counter productive. France too.

Unless we start taking a long hard look at ourselves we will not go anywhere and will still be having the same discussions in 5, 10, 15 years time.

TomA
-10th April 2015, 20:26
Doesn't the centralisation/decentralisation debate ultimately come down to what kind of economic and cultural conditions exist in your country?

I suspect that decentralisation and having multiple, competing entities with little NGB involvement/funding works for the US because that's how lots of businesses and services run in the US. It's what people expect and it's how their economy works.

The French economy is based around Paris. 30% of their GDP comes from there (London represents 22% of the UK's GDP, for comparison - and we think that's over-centralised). So guess what? French fencing has been centralised in Paris. Of course, the French are slowly starting to realise that this over-centralisation is causing problems for Paris and the rest of France, as well as business and NGOs, so the calls for decentralisation are rising. Sound at all like French fencing?

Germany as I understand it also has lots of clubs, with a few super-clubs funded through a mixture of public and private finance, as well as their own commercial activities. Does that not sound at least a little reminiscent of how Germany has built their business sector?

IMO the three models above are probably the closest to what we need. Unsurprisingly, those countries are all quite similar to us in terms of economic structure - the US sits a bit to the right, France a bit to the left, and Germany is more or less the same, just better. Look at those models, modify slightly based on the experiences of successful business and particularly third sector organisations in the UK, and you'll get a system that works. Probably.

coach carson
-11th April 2015, 07:15
Doesn't the centralisation/decentralisation debate ultimately come down to what kind of economic and cultural conditions exist in your country?

I suspect that decentralisation and having multiple, competing entities with little NGB involvement/funding works for the US because that's how lots of businesses and services run in the US. It's what people expect and it's how their economy works.

The French economy is based around Paris. 30% of their GDP comes from there (London represents 22% of the UK's GDP, for comparison - and we think that's over-centralised). So guess what? French fencing has been centralised in Paris. Of course, the French are slowly starting to realise that this over-centralisation is causing problems for Paris and the rest of France, as well as business and NGOs, so the calls for decentralisation are rising. Sound at all like French fencing?

Germany as I understand it also has lots of clubs, with a few super-clubs funded through a mixture of public and private finance, as well as their own commercial activities. Does that not sound at least a little reminiscent of how Germany has built their business sector?

IMO the three models above are probably the closest to what we need. Unsurprisingly, those countries are all quite similar to us in terms of economic structure - the US sits a bit to the right, France a bit to the left, and Germany is more or less the same, just better. Look at those models, modify slightly based on the experiences of successful business and particularly third sector organisations in the UK, and you'll get a system that works. Probably.

An interesting thesis. Clearly explains why the People's Republic of Truro is a strong fencing centre.

grizz
-11th April 2015, 10:22
A couple of thoughts.

I think it's important to remember that we have an extremely successful system of our own in the UK for Olympic sports, funded by sport UK etc. Much of what BF does is governed by the funders, it is often a case of, he who pay's the piper calls the tune.

Germany, France and others would kill for our Olympic success.

Fencing is a late comer to the sport UK party and is years behind other sports, but I think we have very little choice how things are done if we want the money.

I think the funders are quite happy at the moment, the MF results are consistently good and we have a senior European champion. I don't think the funders see the distinction between the weapons, they just see fencing. Just think of cycling, does anybody care if we win medals on the track or on the road? I doubt it, they just see cycling medals.

Having just spent a week with a coach from one of the German super clubs, I was interested to hear that he felt that Olympic sport, and fencing specifically, in Germany, is in crisis. There have been big funding cuts and they are going over to a system more like ours.

It's worth remembering that we had a decentralized system for years, granted with no real funding. Given that it didn't turn us into a world class fencing nation and that the funders won't fund that model, I don't think it's worth thinking about going back to that, at least not yet.

A couple of years ago BF said they had a 12 year plan. We are only a few years into it, I think we have to wait a good few years yet before we say if it works or not. The system works for other sports, so there is no reason for it not to work for us (please don't tell me fencing is different, it's not, it's a sport just like all the others).

Jed

ED_R
-11th April 2015, 15:08
A couple of thoughts.

I think it's important to remember that we have an extremely successful system of our own in the UK for Olympic sports, funded by sport UK etc. Much of what BF does is governed by the funders, it is often a case of, he who pay's the piper calls the tune.

Germany, France and others would kill for our Olympic success.

Fencing is a late comer to the sport UK party and is years behind other sports, but I think we have very little choice how things are done if we want the money.

I think the funders are quite happy at the moment, the MF results are consistently good and we have a senior European champion. I don't think the funders see the distinction between the weapons, they just see fencing. Just think of cycling, does anybody care if we win medals on the track or on the road? I doubt it, they just see cycling medals.

Having just spent a week with a coach from one of the German super clubs, I was interested to hear that he felt that Olympic sport, and fencing specifically, in Germany, is in crisis. There have been big funding cuts and they are going over to a system more like ours.

It's worth remembering that we had a decentralized system for years, granted with no real funding. Given that it didn't turn us into a world class fencing nation and that the funders won't fund that model, I don't think it's worth thinking about going back to that, at least not yet.

A couple of years ago BF said they had a 12 year plan. We are only a few years into it, I think we have to wait a good few years yet before we say if it works or not. The system works for other sports, so there is no reason for it not to work for us (please don't tell me fencing is different, it's not, it's a sport just like all the others).

Jed

I think these thoughts need to be treated with caution on many levels. Above all we surely need to focus very carefully on whether we are delivering what we need to, to get the right outcome. Especially if we are working on a 12 year plan.

TomA
-11th April 2015, 19:57
A couple of thoughts.

I think it's important to remember that we have an extremely successful system of our own in the UK for Olympic sports, funded by sport UK etc.
(please don't tell me fencing is different, it's not, it's a sport just like all the others).

Jed
We have an extremely successful system for power-based sports in the UK, based on centralised programmes and top quality sports science. And it's easy to see why it works - it creates controlled conditions with fewer variables and distractions in which you can treat athletes as organic machines, fine-tuning them and making sure their output is the best it could be.

The talent ID system makes sense for the power-based sports. Don't just look for the kids who can run the fastest, look for the ones who are willing to train the most. They're the ones who will put the hours in and get the power out in the long term.

Looking at the medal chart though, it doesn't work as well for adversarial sports - those where you have to beat the guy in front of you, rather than the one next to, before or after you. The two exceptions are tennis and boxing - which both have well-developed professional circuits and competing clubs, sort of making my point for me.

I'm not denying that power, hard work and dedicated training spaces aren't important for all sports, fencing included. And you're right that the UKSport funding is ring-fenced for the centralised model - so I agree, you might as well use it. In the meantime though, the focus for the future should be intensive support for clubs - ie helping them get set up with dedicated facilities backed by funding models which pay for themselves, and making sure they've got coaches capable of developing fencers up to senior international level.

dearys
-19th February 2016, 08:40
Just found this video - brief glimpses of Ian Williams and JJ Webb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soNQDehflh8&index=54&list=PLdNA_ybrJjfkY0QaedRHOsekvL2L2-L0N