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Keith.A.Smith
-30th March 2016, 21:42
Just a quick message to wish every success to the GB team in Bourges.

I hope someone can post results and a link to them.

Let's hope there is plenty to celebrate.

Keith

Cyranna's Father
-31st March 2016, 10:31
http://bourges2016.com/program-2016/?lang=en#

This is the program, there are links shown for results & streaming but nothing is functioning yet

http://www.fencingworldwide.com/en/competition/11825-15/tournament/

This is fencingworldwide's link page which may be more useful

JohnL
-1st April 2016, 21:52
Tough first day for the CWF and CMS

Nick E
-2nd April 2016, 11:56
Looks like a couple of GB fencers into the L32 so far today, with Maxwell in Women's Sabre and Morris in Men's Epee. Good luck in your upcoming fights.

Nick E
-2nd April 2016, 13:19
Looks like a couple of GB fencers into the L32 so far today, with Maxwell in Women's Sabre and Morris in Men's Epee. Good luck in your upcoming fights.

Both unfortunately out in the 32, but best results so far. Well done.

plenty
-3rd April 2016, 21:52
Thanks for the links - some fantastic fencing , GB not doing so great ! JMF to go

Cyranna's Father
-3rd April 2016, 21:56
Thanks for the links - some fantastic fencing , GB not doing so great ! JMF to go

Wow those went quickly, i thought there were six junior weapons and some team events still to go :)

JohnL
-4th April 2016, 15:40
There are still the Junior events to go :) :)

But those who missed watching the Cadets Men's Foil missed some of the most exciting and dominating fencing seen in recent years.

The USA's Tourette carved through the field winning every fight and in the DE, only one fencer put more than 6 hits on him (8). In the final, he demolished the Russian 15-2.

Not only was it the complete thrashing of every opponent he fenced but the style with which he accomplished it. A complete joy to watch.

No-one can predict what will happen with a youngster as he goes from Cadet, through Junior, to Senior level, but here is someone who has all the talent/technique required to go all the way.

plenty
-4th April 2016, 20:29
Hello JohnL

Also U.S.A binder in cwf - storming performance to gold medal. Women's foil usually quite cagey and monotonous but her use of 2nd intentions and reprise remise , plus stunning acceleration and reach of attack devastating !
Kind regards

Mark

Not quite a Vet
-5th April 2016, 09:59
Great start from Chart AllUp seeded 3rd for DE's
Rowland & Fihosy 4Up 2Down, Ayesha just losing her 2 defeats at 5/4 each
Smith 1Up and unfortunately cut before DE's

Good Luck in the DE's

Foilling Around
-5th April 2016, 12:45
There are still the Junior events to go :) :)

But those who missed watching the Cadets Men's Foil missed some of the most exciting and dominating fencing seen in recent years.

The USA's Tourette carved through the field winning every fight and in the DE, only one fencer put more than 6 hits on him (8). In the final, he demolished the Russian 15-2.

Not only was it the complete thrashing of every opponent he fenced but the style with which he accomplished it. A complete joy to watch.

No-one can predict what will happen with a youngster as he goes from Cadet, through Junior, to Senior level, but here is someone who has all the talent/technique required to go all the way.

I would have described the Japanese Ryo Miyake back in 2007 in the same way. Stylish and dominant. Still a good fencer, but not world beating.

hokers
-5th April 2016, 13:18
Josh V3VVVV +12 seeds 25th, beats Hezer (TUR) 15-14 for L64, then loses to Hernandez (ESP) 10-15
Simon VVV4V1 +12 seeds 41st, beats Yoshida (JPN) 15-11 for L64, then loses to Lee (KOR) 3-15
Will VV2V4V +10 seeds 45th, beats Hoshino (JPN) 15-5 for L64, then beats Huang (CHN) 15-6 for L32
JJ V2VV0V +2 seeds 57th, loses to Riccardi (ITA) 12-15 in L128

Will fences Lokhanov (RUS) in L32 later.

hokers
-5th April 2016, 14:08
Will fences Lokhanov (RUS) in L32 later.

Will out 13-15.

Keith.A.Smith
-5th April 2016, 14:13
Good to see a top 32 Junior result.

Keith.A.Smith
-5th April 2016, 15:04
Good to see that two of the JWF also made the top 32, but the GB results overall are showing how tough international fencing now is.

It would be great to see a GB top 8 result before the championships is over.

Meg_SF
-5th April 2016, 18:41
Congratulations Simon! Big step up from the Euros and four in the poules in more than respectable. Hope your ankle heals quickly and that you are enjoying Budapest. MX is proud of you :-)

plenty
-5th April 2016, 21:23
jWF best results so far - many congratulations Yvonne chart from Truro , fenced brilliantly against bianchin ( in fact looked like she could confidently have defeated her, as chart set up some nice hits and was in control of fight really ) just one or two slips , maybe nerves. Plus two simultaneous attack which I would say were hers ( but didn't go to video )
Still blinding result 17th !

JWF path looking good for future !

( Fabrizio , Italian coach ,must have been nervous :). Ludo maybe should have shouted for the priority :)

U.S.A still on top . Go GB

JackSparrow
-5th April 2016, 22:20
This is the semi final of the Junior women's foil. Time runs out at 13-13. It's a priority hit. The ref calls it attack right. Sabrina Massialas goes on to win the competition. Tight call! Glad I didn't have to make that one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ABp2XNDMz6g#t=3652

Vicomte_de_Bragelonne
-5th April 2016, 23:12
Very tight. To me ridiculous to separate that when it's deciding a place in the final. I've watched it a dozen times now and still finding it hard to see how it's for Massialas. But I can't definitely say it's Fu! :confused::confused:

Together and go again!

coach carson
-6th April 2016, 11:33
Today is a sad reflection on BF's approach to performance development, with particular reference to WS.

JohnL
-6th April 2016, 15:04
Today is a sad reflection on BF's approach to performance development, with particular reference to WS.

Disregarding the Juniors, who I sincerely hope have great results, the Cadet side of the tournament has finished with 18 countries having at least 1 fencer with a Top 8 finish.

Unfortunately out of 18 British representatives, only 2 made the L32 stage, with none progressing beyond.

This is no reflection on the youngsters, but clearly the standard of fencing in the UK needs to be addressed at the base level. We owe it to our youngsters to have them taught and prepared in a manner that allow them to perform on the world stage.

coach carson
-6th April 2016, 16:17
Disregarding the Juniors, who I sincerely hope have great results, the Cadet side of the tournament has finished with 18 countries having at least 1 fencer with a Top 8 finish.

Unfortunately out of 18 British representatives, only 2 made the L32 stage, with none progressing beyond.

This is no reflection on the youngsters, but clearly the standard of fencing in the UK needs to be addressed at the base level. We owe it to our youngsters to have them taught and prepared in a manner that allow them to perform on the world stage.

I think a first useful step to compete for medals would be to send some fencers.

hokers
-6th April 2016, 17:07
I think a first useful step to compete for medals would be to send some fencers.

So we've discussed this already, but this illustrates a slight inconsistency in the rules for qualification.
Cadet rules allow some discretion if no-one qualifies by meeting the required standard, but junior rules do not.

In this particular case, we have some CWS who are out there already (for meeting the cadet standard) but didn't meet the JUNIOR criteria, so are not entered.

My main interest is to be sure that the rules have been applied fairly and I think they have, but those rules are not consistent between cadet and junior. Maybe something to consider. Don't get the idea that I'm endorsing discretionary selection here, but if the criteria are too high, they have to be looked at again.

garymond
-6th April 2016, 17:13
JohnL makes a powerful point. Yet precisely how are our youngsters going to be taught and prepared in a manner that will enable them to compete better on the world stage? Is it that they are not working hard enough? How much fencing should they be doing each week? Should they be fencing each morning for two hours from 6 am like I gather some fencers do in other countries? How much S and C work? How many lessons each week with top coaches (in the UK and/or overseas)? How many competitions a year? More overseas training camps? And, of course, how might this all be funded?

I am too new to the fencing world, and insufficiently involved, to know any good answers. Yet I do think that there is a need to probe these issues much more deeply and maybe some of my questions might trigger some interesting responses.

coach carson
-6th April 2016, 17:35
My main interest is to be sure that the rules have been applied fairly and I think they have, but those rules are not consistent between cadet and junior. Maybe something to consider. Don't get the idea that I'm endorsing discretionary selection here, but if the criteria are too high, they have to be looked at again.

My interest is in developing, motivating and inspiring fencers. The current "rules" do not help me in that quest.

Ronald Velden
-6th April 2016, 17:40
I don't think that the issue is whether our best cadets or juniors are competing, but rather how they are being developed and perform. So far we have not managed a better result than a last 32 despite the size of the sport
in this country and resources available.

There are emerging countries in Asia and Africa with much smaller fencing populations and resources than this country who are outperforming us by some distance.

I want to put it in a context. I started the Camden International Cadet Sabre Tournament specifically to raise standards in this country as well as expand opportunity for British Fencers to compete in an international.

The event has attracted many world cadet and junior champions and medallists. Six of the last 8 men in yesterday's final tableau competed in the tournament including the gold medallist.

What has been significant over last two years is that Japan have produced in sabre two medals and a last
8 fencer at World Championships.

Yet Japan is in essence a foil nation. What they started doing in 2012 is converting the less able members of
their national foil squad into sabreurs. That year they sent the squad to London and their fencers finished at
the bottom of the pile.

In 2014 they returned to London including Emura [silver medal in cadets in 2015] and Fitzgerald [bronze medal in juniors in 2016]. Emura won the women's event.

For the record they trained for a week in London in 2014 and then again in 2015. Their culture and attitude to
training is of course entirely different to Britain. They train twice a day. Most of British Fencers are realistically
recreational by comparison training in many cases a couple of times a week.

ED_R
-6th April 2016, 18:31
So we've discussed this already, but this illustrates a slight inconsistency in the rules for qualification.
Cadet rules allow some discretion if no-one qualifies by meeting the required standard, but junior rules do not.

In this particular case, we have some CWS who are out there already (for meeting the cadet standard) but didn't meet the JUNIOR criteria, so are not entered.

My main interest is to be sure that the rules have been applied fairly and I think they have, but those rules are not consistent between cadet and junior. Maybe something to consider. Don't get the idea that I'm endorsing discretionary selection here, but if the criteria are too high, they have to be looked at again.

You also need to have in mind that many who qualify for individuals do so because of the team performance.

The bar is set very high to qualify as an individual.

The selection of the team is entirely discretionary.

Qualification for some teams is far easier than others.

The whole experience for a fencer seeking to drive his own selection is rather like being given control of the steering wheel, but discovering it's not actually connected to the car.

Cyranna's Father
-6th April 2016, 20:53
I think a first useful step to compete for medals would be to send some fencers.

should BF say that they will simply send the top 3 regardless or send only those qualified?

should different weapons be treated differently?

It's not easy & I can see all sides of the argument including the underside which suggests that perhaps the requirements for Junior qualification were ramped up unreasonably quickly in comparison to the development paths of young GB fencers.

There is a huge discussion to be had about the future and I am kind of hoping that it will be rendered needless by the further actions of the Pathway team.

There is also the problem of the lack of guidance for young fencers, for example how are non-fencing parents to tell a good coach who will take their child to the sky from a rather more limited one?

so many questions if this sport is to progress, clearly the notional 2024 target has gone the way of all flesh but changes need to be made now if fencing is to progress at all in the next decade. Of course there may be those who are content for it to remain as it is and I can understand that too, if that is the case then we might as well all settle down and just let it be a small sport with a limited, or should that be Elite, style.

ED_R
-6th April 2016, 22:51
I don't think we will do better by excluding fencers from competitions. I think we will do better by training the fencers better.

Cyranna's Father
-7th April 2016, 11:43
Lydia Stanier -

5V & 1D in the poule, gets a bye to 64 where she meets either Schmidl (AUT) or Lin (CHN) at 11.40 UK time

Cyranna's Father
-7th April 2016, 12:04
Lydia Stanier -

5V & 1D in the poule, gets a bye to 64 where she meets either Schmidl (AUT) or Lin (CHN) at 11.40 UK time

make that 12.40

hokers
-7th April 2016, 12:21
My interest is in developing, motivating and inspiring fencers. The current "rules" do not help me in that quest.

But at least they followed them correctly without there being huge arguments about why person A was selected with the same results as person B who was not.

I think we should have an ongoing policy of reviewing every selection document that gets released for clarity and realism. If any are found to have too high required standards or ambiguous wording then push back at that time, it feels too late to be complaining when our fencers have failed to meet the published standard.

danKew
-7th April 2016, 12:29
I think a first useful step to compete for medals would be to send some fencers.

I'm too am having trouble understanding why we've only sent 1 junior (epee) when as a country we have 4 spots available to us. I'm obviously over-simplifying things as I'm sure it's a complex scenario, but I'm struggling to see the [any] positives in excluding 3 of our best juniors from gaining world level experience. How has British Fencing benefitted by not sending those juniors?


if the criteria are too high, they have to be looked at again.

Yes. Definitely.


should BF say that they will simply send the top 3 regardless or send only those qualified?

Gets my vote. What is the argument for not doing this?

coach carson
-7th April 2016, 13:05
But at least they followed them correctly without there being huge arguments about why person A was selected with the same results as person B who was not.



Yes indeed. A champagne moment. We are all very proud of this achievement.

cesh_fencing
-7th April 2016, 13:24
I'm too am having trouble understanding why we've only sent 1 junior (epee) when as a country we have 4 spots available to us.

This has been 'forumed' to death over the last 10 years or so..

Whether I agree of not, the idea is that if fencers are not able to get results at U20- world cup events, why send them to get destroyed at the World Championships.

Just sending 'cannon-fodder' is not actually that good for fencers at this level.

I think BF want fencers to aim higher and actually work to ensure they are good enough to get the required qualification level, so they will then be competitive at World Championships, if 4 fencers are sent whatever, in reality fencers do not need to have reached a very competitive level in some weapons..

Experience of fencing abroad is got by fencing at lower level foreign events, and then at world cup junior events, once competitive at these hopefully fencers can succeed at Worlds..

danKew
-7th April 2016, 13:44
This has been 'forumed' to death over the last 10 years or so..

Whether I agree of not, the idea is that if fencers are not able to get results at U20- world cup events, why send them to get destroyed at the World Championships.

I guessed it might have ... but I'll just leave this here; The winner of the JME yesterday, Georgiy Bruev, finished 50th in Basel - behind 4 British fencers.

The Driver
-7th April 2016, 13:49
Just sending 'cannon-fodder' is not actually that good for fencers at this level.


I think this depends on the individual fencer.


I guessed it might have ... but I'll just leave this here; The winner of the JME yesterday, Georgiy Bruev, finished 50th in Basel - behind 4 British fencers.

Could have been an "off-day" in Basel, alternatively it could demonstrate the random nature of epee!

coach carson
-7th April 2016, 17:05
Just sending 'cannon-fodder' is not actually that good for fencers at this level.

I wouldn't call the no.2 cadet in Europe as cannon fodder. I wouldn't call the team that took out the USA u20 team this season as cannon fodder. They are good enough. Certainly as good as any of the other weapons at these championships.

cesh_fencing
-7th April 2016, 17:43
I guessed it might have ... but I'll just leave this here; The winner of the JME yesterday, Georgiy Bruev, finished 50th in Basel - behind 4 British fencers.

But had also got 2 last 8s and two last 16s which would have easily put him at the top of the GBR rankings.

I am personally in the view the selection criteria is probably a bit too tough, but I do not think we should go back to the days of just filling every space for the sake of it, if that person is simply not up to grade..

If someone cannot even get through 1st round poules or through the odd DE in a World cup U20, then there is little point them going to the World Championships.

cesh_fencing
-7th April 2016, 17:50
I wouldn't call the no.2 cadet in Europe as cannon fodder. I wouldn't call the team that took out the USA u20 team this season as cannon fodder. They are good enough. Certainly as good as any of the other weapons at these championships.

Arguably if they were unable to hit the qualifying standards set by BF, they are not deemed as such by BF..

If they had been reaching multiple last 8s and last 16s at World Cup level, I would have thought they would have been selected.

As for a one off team match, that again does not mean that much. Obviously great for them, but that is not part of the published criteria..

I probably sound a bit blunt on this, but criteria is criteria and everyone knows what it is. I suspect all those fencers in the mix would be targeting to hit that level, and if they do not it is not surprising they are not selected..

coach carson
-7th April 2016, 17:59
Arguably if they were unable to hit the qualifying standards set by BF, they are not deemed as such by BF..

If they had been reaching multiple last 8s and last 16s at World Cup level, I would have thought they would have been selected.

As for a one off team match, that again does not mean that much. Obviously great for them, but that is not part of the published criteria..

I probably sound a bit blunt on this, but criteria is criteria and everyone knows what it is. I suspect all those fencers in the mix would be targeting to hit that level, and if they do not it is not surprising they are not selected..

It sounded like you along with BF are telling them that they are not good enough. This is plainly not true and an unhelpful message.

TomA
-7th April 2016, 18:40
If they win points at a nominated Junior World Cup that season, they should qualify. Simples.

The World and European championships aren't necessarily as difficult as World Cups anyway - the top nations can only send four fencers and a lot of less established countries tend to enter teams containing 'chafe' too. You get the usual surprises of the Asian zone fencers turning up as 999s, but in general you wouldn't look at the competition entry and say the standard was much higher than the larger world cups.

Getting good results at these competitions basically comes down to turning up, fencing well and having a good day.

On the current system (as well as various others used over the years) Phil Marsh wouldn't have been in Jordan to win the Junior Worlds in 2010.

ED_R
-7th April 2016, 19:04
If they had been reaching multiple last 8s and last 16s at World Cup level, I would have thought they would have been selected.

As for a one off team match, that again does not mean that much. Obviously great for them, but that is not part of the published criteria..

I probably sound a bit blunt on this, but criteria is criteria and everyone knows what it is. I suspect all those fencers in the mix would be targeting to hit that level, and if they do not it is not surprising they are not selected..

But many of those getting selected are getting their places not because they are getting 8s and 16s, but because their weapon did ok in a team event.

This is the easier way to get selected. I don't think this has been the case in the past.

Epee did badly on selections because they had a bad run on their team events. Compare individuals performance in JMF to JME.

I may well be wrong (and misunderstanding) but the current selection rules seem to favour selectors who concentrate on team performance. Its how to get your fencers selected.

This seems strange to me - since we all seem to focus on individual results.

Am I misunderstanding what is happening?

cesh_fencing
-7th April 2016, 22:16
It sounded like you along with BF are telling them that they are not good enough. This is plainly not true and an unhelpful message.

The only fencer I really know well enough to comment on personally, who was in contention, who I really think should have been selected for the Worlds went, having reached the BF set criteria, he was certainly good enough having previously secured regular last 32s and better results at qualifying internationals.. If he had not reached that standard I would have understood if he had not been selected.

Possibly those who did not get to that criteria do actually need to look at how they can target to get up to a higher level. Telling them they are good enough at their current standard is actually a bit of the problem, they need to know they to be truly competitive at the Junior Worlds level, they need to be truly competitive at Junior world cup level, and if they are getting regular last 32s or better they would reach that qualification criteria.

I personally feel that BF probably could look at the criteria level, however I still think that going back to filling all the spots, just for the sake of filling all the spots is also not a good thing to do.

cesh_fencing
-7th April 2016, 22:39
But many of those getting selected are getting their places not because they are getting 8s and 16s, but because their weapon did ok in a team event.

I have not been close to the 'detail' of the selections. All I appreciate is that if you get top 8s and 16s in the individual World cups you should get selected in your own right.

If you are relying on selection due to team performances, you cannot be certain whether you or another 'preferred team fencer' may be selected..

ED_R
-7th April 2016, 23:12
I have not been close to the 'detail' of the selections. All I appreciate is that if you get top 8s and 16s in the individual World cups you should get selected in your own right.

If you are relying on selection due to team performances, you cannot be certain whether you or another 'preferred team fencer' may be selected..

That is really my point. You really need to get close to the detail of the selections i think, or we will rehearse old discussions that no longer apply.

The selection of those with 8s and 16s are not the majority of selections. And (one hopes) they would get selected regardless of whatever method you used.

As to the rest they are all in the realm of subjective selection. That is what we have now. That is not necessarily a bad thing.

There is a reasonably large group of fencers who are not achieving the very high bar that is set for selection for individuals and who are definitely not cannon fodder. Phil Marsh would have fitted into this group in the year he became world champion. It is they who are the focus of discussion.

cesh_fencing
-8th April 2016, 01:56
There is a reasonably large group of fencers who are not achieving the very high bar that is set for selection for individuals and who are definitely not cannon fodder. .

Well that is a subjective view that 'selectors' are there to decide on. I am not privy to that information or discussion, however for Men's Epee we had one fencer at the end of last season in the top 20 of the Junior rankings who was eligible to compete this year (now 57th after this worlds) and went.

The next highest ranked was 138th and the next in the 200's at the end of 2015-16. In reality the 2nd ranked fencers has this season moved just into the top 100 and the 3rd into the 170's, is that a suitable level to qualify for the world championships is a call that I would not want to call personally, as I do know the fencers involved and they are very competitive GB fencers, but possibly struggle slightly on an International stage, else they would be higher in the world rankings.


Phil Marsh would have fitted into this group in the year he became world champion. It is they who are the focus of discussion.

Anyone on their day could win any event in fencing, that is the great thing about fencing, however where do BF draw the line?

Phil as an example was a very good cadet, big and strong for his age and had shown at GB level some great ability to beat seniors prior to his worlds win (he was I think the first GB Cadet to beat me in a DE for over 20 years at the time), so he was someone that the selectors recognised as potential and were proven right.

I have had a track record of actually advising fencers I coach to concentrate on appropriate level of competition for their development level, and have had fencers not join Cadet International trips as those fencers would benefit more in concentrating on U14/U15 International level instead. By doing so I remove a 'random' factor that they may get a freak result at an event, but also I keep their perspective at the correct level for their current ability.

Long term development is the key and sometimes fencers missing out on selection will drive them on to greater things..

It is not about saying someone is not good enough, however identifying the correct competition path to improve that fencer in the key.

Nick E
-8th April 2016, 06:37
Disregarding the Juniors, who I sincerely hope have great results, the Cadet side of the tournament has finished with 18 countries having at least 1 fencer with a Top 8 finish.

Unfortunately out of 18 British representatives, only 2 made the L32 stage, with none progressing beyond.

This is no reflection on the youngsters, but clearly the standard of fencing in the UK needs to be addressed at the base level. We owe it to our youngsters to have them taught and prepared in a manner that allow them to perform on the world stage.

If our Junior selections have been limited by performance / results then John is right in his final comment. Unfortunately this does question the impact of the Performance Pathway, which has been questioned already with some successful fencers opting out of the offered national support. There was talk last year of creating a consistent 'team' ethos for aspiring and identified athletes, much as seen in British Cycling, but I don't see or hear this talked about much since its launch. It doesn't feel as if results this year have matched previous years, but I'm sure others have this data.

ED_R
-8th April 2016, 08:07
Cesh - can we agree at least that the cannon fodder argument has gone?

The tectonic plates of selection have shifted and we are moving towards a situation where performance alone is not enough, and a fencer needs to get into the talent pathway to go on internationals; and subsequently all but a few will go to the worlds because they have been selected into a team and not because of their performance in individuals.

There may even be one selection at the beginning of the year.

A fencer's relationship with the pathway has become key - and this is a big change which seems to be being passed unnoticed. Or at least uncommented.

Alongside the skills of the fencer we are going to increasingly rely on the skills of the selectors to know the fencers ability and to select wisely, to manage and develop the squad etc.

It has never been more important with this increasing power for the talent pathways to operate effectively.

And if it is not to push the point too far, rather than being a failure of the fencers alone to get a full contingent of fencers to the europeans and the worlds, it is also now dependent on the ability of the person in charge of the weapon to deliver also.

There is lots to discuss IMO. It is an interesting model that is developing.

It will no doubt also have an effect on the non-pathway group who up to now had an even chance to compete - and so get drawn back to competitions each year. This relates to the other active thread (Bristol Open).

cesh_fencing
-8th April 2016, 12:40
Cesh - can we agree at least that the cannon fodder argument has gone?

I have never said that any current team/near to selection is 'cannon fodder', however there have been occasions in the past, when GBR sent full teams, that some of the GB fencers were pretty much 'cannon fodder' and failed to get through 1st rounds or even win any fights.. That is not actually that good for them, especially if their coach has been saying they should be doing well at the event, when they are nowhere near the standard needed.

BF specifically set qualification criteria to ensure similar situations did not occur again, however I think personally they may have gone a step too far, but that is just my personal opinion.


The tectonic plates of selection have shifted and we are moving towards a situation where performance alone is not enough, and a fencer needs to get into the talent pathway to go on internationals; and subsequently all but a few will go to the worlds because they have been selected into a team and not because of their performance in individuals.?

There may even be one selection at the beginning of the year.

A fencer's relationship with the pathway has become key - and this is a big change which seems to be being passed unnoticed. Or at least uncommented.

Alongside the skills of the fencer we are going to increasingly rely on the skills of the selectors to know the fencers ability and to select wisely, to manage and develop the squad etc.

That is a totally different argument to selection criteria and is something I have never been positive about.

If with the perceived benefits of pathway, fencers are not in the top 8 (or however many are going) for junior world cups, I really do think they should send the fencers with the most competitive ability at the time and encourage those less competitive at the time to do 'lower grade' International events.

I had a great time when a cadet fencing at events in France and learnt a fair amount annoying the French and stealing their titles, at the time if I had been sent to a Junior World Championships I would have been destroyed.


And if it is not to push the point too far, rather than being a failure of the fencers alone to get a full contingent of fencers to the europeans and the worlds, it is also now dependent on the ability of the person in charge of the weapon to deliver also.

90% or more of fencer's training is done with their own personal coach or off their own back, not sure whether the 'person in charge of Pathway' has that much to with it, unless you are saying that fencers are just not being sent to Junior World cups, however looking at the world junior rankings for Men's Epee 15 fencers went to Junior World Cups last season, and only 1 had consistent results, I would say, at a really competitive standard and that fencer was selected..

I was personally surprised at how many fencers actually went to the Europeans as I am sure some had not hit the 'requisite' results, so that event was the 'gaining experience of championship fencing' type event.

TomA
-8th April 2016, 18:15
Phil as an example was a very good cadet, big and strong for his age and had shown at GB level some great ability to beat seniors prior to his worlds win (he was I think the first GB Cadet to beat me in a DE for over 20 years at the time), so he was someone that the selectors recognised as potential and were proven right.Actually I think Phil qualified by right that year - the requirement was 7,500 points that year which he achieved. Had the current system been in place he would not have qualified and indeed would not have even gone to the Europeans where he scored one of the results that qualified him for worlds.

Cyranna's Father
-8th April 2016, 22:11
Actually I think Phil qualified by right that year - the requirement was 7,500 points that year which he achieved. Had the current system been in place he would not have qualified and indeed would not have even gone to the Europeans where he scored one of the results that qualified him for worlds.

There should always be room for exceptions :)

You never know when something will turn up that cannot be ignored.

A question - if fencing takes such a long time to learn and requires so much experience, to late 20s-early 30s, why are we concerned about what performance is like in late teens?

Surely it is better to see the process as a ladder with rewards to encourage ongoing participation at each major point, thus participation in the Junior worlds becomes a reward for our top 3 U20 provided that they have attained reasonable performance.

That's reasonable in GB terms btw.

Unless of course it is not an extremely long learning process in which case why are parents continually told that it is?

The other option is to invest in the future by taking another strategy but that one would be a harsh thing to do to young sports people who have put so much time into this sport. Maybe there is a middle path but the recent Worlds suggest that this is a problem across all weapons and I would suggest that the difficulties cannot all be resolved by hours of footwork, bladework and S&C. There are more obvious questions to ask.

ED_R
-8th April 2016, 22:14
90% or more of fencer's training is done with their own personal coach or off their own back, not sure whether the 'person in charge of Pathway' has that much to with it

It is unlikely that a full contingent of fencers in a weapon will get to the worlds through individual qualification because the requirements are so high. The lower requirement of qualification by getting a last eight in the team event is a more likely occurrence. Especially for those weapons where the number of teams is low.

Inclusion in a team is the subjective choice of the person in charge of the weapon (as agreed by the performance team). The extent of their involvement is selecting a team that performs well.

I think I am done on this topic now.

cesh_fencing
-8th April 2016, 22:23
It is unlikely that a full contingent of fencers in a weapon will get to the worlds through individual qualification because the requirements are so high.

I am just saying that the safest way for any fencer to get selected is to hit the qualifying criteria in their own right. This should be the target for all our fencers whatever weapon, not a reliance on getting on a team or such.

The fact that some fencers have achieved this level, means that it is achievable.

If you leave it to selectors then you are entering a minefield that is best to avoid.

ED_R
-8th April 2016, 22:31
I am just saying that the safest way for any fencer to get selected is to hit the qualifying criteria in their own right. This should be the target for all our fencers whatever weapon, not a reliance on getting on a team or such.

The fact that some fencers have achieved this level, means that it is achievable.

If you leave it to selectors then you are entering a minefield that is best to avoid.

Of course it is achievable.

What you are suggesting is that the way many fencers actually qualify for the worlds under current rules is a minefield, and to be avoided.

Cyranna's Father
-8th April 2016, 22:37
The fact that some fencers have achieved this level, means that it is achievable.



I'm curious - from the combined knowledge of you two experienced Gentlemen, how many from all 6 weapons would have been selected if the team proviso had not been in place?

cesh_fencing
-8th April 2016, 22:54
Of course it is achievable.

What you are suggesting is that the way many fencers actually qualify for the worlds under current rules is a minefield, and to be avoided.

I am just saying that if a fencer does not qualify individually by securing the Individual qualifying standard, they have no guarantee they will be selected in a team set up, even if they were in those teams through the season.

So in reality they are relying on someone else to get in, not on their own personal performance, so the target has to be individual selection by hitting the criteria.

cesh_fencing
-8th April 2016, 22:56
I'm curious - from the combined knowledge of you two experienced Gentlemen, how many from all 6 weapons would have been selected if the team proviso had not been in place?

I know one Men's Epeeist hit the required standard at qualification date, not so interested in the other weapons I have to say.

Rob.Leicester
-8th April 2016, 22:56
A question - if fencing takes such a long time to learn and requires so much experience, to late 20s-early 30s, why are we concerned about what performance is like in late teens?

This is an excellent question

ED_R
-8th April 2016, 23:12
I think foil got one qualified. I usually get these quick checks wrong though!

plenty
-9th April 2016, 10:02
There should always be room for exceptions :)

...........

A question - if fencing takes such a long time to learn and requires so much experience, to late 20s-early 30s, why are we concerned about what performance is like in late teens?

..........

All scientific evidence observes that prior ( early years ) learnt movements are the ones imprinted most deeply - hence if these movements are not learnt ( taught ) correctly , then there will always be 'escape of technique ' or amplification of errors under stress ( combat ) conditions. It is always the prior learnt movement that is reverted to under stress - therefor sadly, even if a 'succeeding' fencer has access to a top coach and sparring in later teens, it is very unlikely they will develop to elite level.

In the uk the vast majority of pre teen and early teen competitors who dominate competition rankings suffer a big drop off in performance and results at later teens , which effect is much more marked when competing abroad. This is because ; a) they don't have robust technique and ; b) especially at senior level they don't have the tactical sophistication.

I have been saying for years that we need have all GB coaches, regardless of level of course, trained exclusively by WC coaches - further that ratio of candidates to educator be no more than 1/6 , said programme being run as residential bi annual as well as regional monthly wkend on roving basis. It would not be expensive at all - and in fact a lot more fun and engaging than most of the coach ed offerings.


It isn't that difficult to give coaches these necessary 'building block' skills / improve what they already have. The skill is easily assimilated by existing cohort of coaches - and esp important for younger ones.

It really isn't that difficult for bf to do - I wonder why they haven't ?
Kind regards

Mark

Ronald Velden
-9th April 2016, 10:56
Leaving aside opinions about who should be selected for World Championships the results don't lie and the stats
make very poor reading particularly at cadet level.

CADETS
WF 33/54/83 88 Competitors
MF 38/59/65 110 "
WE 63/67/83 113 "
ME 25/883/87 129 "
WS 18/45/55 81 "
MS 60/61/63 88 "

Summary 1 Last 32 14/18 fencers finished in bottom half of their competition.

JUNIORS
WF 17/27/68/107 130 Competitors
MF 24/49/105/120 157 "
WE 38 150 "
ME 96 174 "
WS
MS 29/42/50/73 145 "

Summary 4 Last 32 6/14 fencers finished in bottom half of their competition.

Overall we sent 32 fencers to World Championships. The best results were Last 32 and 20 of the 32 fencers
finished in the bottom half of their competitions.

One final point it has been suggested in one post that the World Championships is the toughest competition. That
is not actually the case. The Europeans were generally considered harder, because the entry was smaller and a
lot of weaker nations don't send fencers to Tournaments. Also there are a lot of fencers who compete in World
Cups who are not qualified for World Championships but would for sure finish high in the placings if they had been selected.

Rob.Leicester
-9th April 2016, 11:19
All scientific evidence observes that prior ( early years ) learnt movements are the ones imprinted most deeply - hence if these movements are not learnt ( taught ) correctly , then there will always be 'escape of technique ' or amplification of errors under stress ( combat ) conditions. It is always the prior learnt movement that is reverted to under stress - therefor sadly, even if a 'succeeding' fencer has access to a top coach and sparring in later teens, it is very unlikely they will develop to elite level.

In the uk the vast majority of pre teen and early teen competitors who dominate competition rankings suffer a big drop off in performance and results at later teens , which effect is much more marked when competing abroad. This is because ; a) they don't have robust technique and ; b) especially at senior level they don't have the tactical sophistication.

I have been saying for years that we need have all GB coaches, regardless of level of course, trained exclusively by WC coaches - further that ratio of candidates to educator be no more than 1/6 , said programme being run as residential bi annual as well as regional monthly wkend on roving basis. It would not be expensive at all - and in fact a lot more fun and engaging than most of the coach ed offerings.


It isn't that difficult to give coaches these necessary 'building block' skills / improve what they already have. The skill is easily assimilated by existing cohort of coaches - and esp important for younger ones.

It really isn't that difficult for bf to do - I wonder why they haven't ?
Kind regards

Mark

All good points, but doesn't answer the question that CF asked

elliecormack
-9th April 2016, 11:41
The only time I really look at the fencing forum is to find out results when I know that friends are competing, so I'm sorry if people see this post as missing the point or out of context, but I'd just like to throw something out there, particularly as I know that I've had this conversation with other juniors who feel the same way....
I'm not commenting on what BF should do to improve cadet/junior fencers and I am not claiming that I have any opinion on how they should do that; however, it seems like some people on this forum are all to keen to forget that some fencers made the top 32 *in the world* this week. Some other fencers performed well all season and just had bad days, and some maybe just didn't have the experience to perform at such a high level yet, but may have gained valuable experience and will be motivated to improve as a result. I was Au-Pairing in Bonn last year, and young fencers there who had access to a prestigious fencing center when they desired, world class coaching on hand, could train with senior world class fencers regularly and had their travel paid for them throughout the season, would have been congratulated for a top 32 result at a World Championships. Yet barely anyone here says a thing to British fencers, the majority of whom I doubt have that kind of opportunity that those fencers in Bonn have, with the same result. I don't know junior results throughout the whole season, particularly for the saber and foil fencers, but I'm aware, to pick out just a few results off the top of my head, that Ayesha Fihosy and Will Deary both took bronze medals at a JWC, and Liddy Stanier, for example, made top 16 at one of the largest WE junior world cups and certainly knocked out some very highly ranked people on the way there.
If people want to criticize the results of those at the events, why can't that be done in private conversations? Simply stating that you think the results are poor on a public forum changes nothing, and it IS putting off young fencers. Over the last couple of seasons, the conversation has come up so many times on the trips that I have been on that all cadets and juniors seem to receive on this forum is criticism after criticism, unfair comparison to fencers from nations where the system is entirely different and very little recognition given to those who do achieve abroad. I remember first having a conversation about this when I was asked to go to Junior Europeans in 2014, as I was really excited about it and turned to the forum to find out who was going on other teams, and found several comments complaining about how I and a friend, (we was not named, but we was the only people who could have been meant), were selected despite not meeting the published qualifying standard (despite the fact that our selection was within their discretionary policy). I really have no issue with people feeling this way, but reading these comments simply worsened the entire experience for us for absolutely no benefit to anyone else. Last season, to give a further example, Liz Powell came 9th at a large JWC in Finland and barely a word was said about it. It was, however, highlighted how 'poor the rest of the results were'.
Basically all I'm trying to express is that if you genuinely want fencers to feel motivated to improve, then highlighting your lack of approval of their results on a public forum isn't exactly the most motivating thing for young fencers to see and, quite frankly, makes some of them wonder why they bother at all. Sure, you could say that people should just 'toughen up' to the comments, and I'm not saying that people can't deal with it, it just seems an unnecessary barrier to put in young fencers way, when they already have enough challenges facing them in order to do well internationally as a British fencer.

caranza
-9th April 2016, 11:49
If people want to criticize the results of those at the events, why can't that be done in private conversations? Simply stating that you think the results are poor on a public forum changes nothing, and it IS putting off young fencers.

Yes in total agreement with you. I hope that makes people think before spouting forth.

plenty
-9th April 2016, 11:58
Dear Ellie,
Thank you , I for one really value your input - it isn't often that the athletes post their views.

I totally agree with you in that GB fencers and coaches deserve a huge congratulations for results 'despite' the poor fencing environment for training in uk. What I would hope that bf aims at is prompt delivery to coaches of a modular programme so that coaches have the path to hone their skills , thus improving the level of sparring in the clubs and on the domestic circuit.

I am sorry too that this thread has turned into a discussion on the state of fencing -

JWF excellent v.nearly L16 and JMF too
Kind regards
Mark

plenty
-9th April 2016, 12:00
Um,
R.verdon post - harsh truth
There is also though a lot to be said for 'confidence building' - there have been some excellent results and medals this last year !

Ronald Velden
-9th April 2016, 13:42
The point I make is not about performance of individuals who are competing, but the way the sport is being run
in this country.

As I pointed out earlier this is not about talent, but if you are sending fencers who are only able to train once or twice a week and are competing against fencers who are better trained and prepared for Championships then you
must not be surprised by the result.

The real concern is that for all the resources now available the sport is not progressing. We are relying too much on
three or four senior mens foilists to meet UK Sport's expectations. What needs to be asked is what is happening with the next generation when they come through.

caranza
-9th April 2016, 16:33
What needs to be asked is what is happening with the next generation when they come through
Hasn't Ellie's post, and Cyranna' Father's question highlighted how flawed these constant over-determined and tautological postulations are?
I don't know of any cadet or junior fencer training just once or twice a week. They are significantly more committed, and it is an insult to them and their coaches to suggest otherwise. Not to mention their families and schools who support them to the nth degree.
My initial response that Ellie's post might make people think before responding was perhaps a little too idealistic. Better that every cadet and junior fencer out there has the commonsense to disregard the ramblings of those too quick with their keyboards, and remember that most in the sport are grateful to them mining away at results and having the guts to go out time and again to get them.

Lefty Foilist
-10th April 2016, 10:05
Men's foil team off to a good start, beating Venuzuela 45-31. They now have Egypt in the last 16, and the winner of that match faces whoever triumphs in the USA-Korea encounter.

Go on lads, lets have 'em!

Edit: they beat Egypt, as it happens! Yay! US of A up next in the Last-8.

dtd
-10th April 2016, 11:10
Men's foil team off to a good start

I'd almost forgotten there were still the team events. :whistle:

The results have all but got lost in this thread. Can't we just get behind the fencers, regardless of who they are, how they were selected or how often they train. They were selected, end of story. Now is not the right time for questioning when they are out there fighting for GBR.

I much admired Ellie's comments earlier. I wish some of the posters would remember that it is kids we are talking about. If even one of the political comments about fencers/training/selection methods not being good enough causes even the slightest crack in a young fencer's confidence, then this thread has created a dis-service to youth fencing in Britain.

dtd
-10th April 2016, 11:34
For completeness:

W Foil Team finished 12th out of 24 entries
M Sabre 9th / 27

Lefty Foilist
-10th April 2016, 11:58
Astonishing result in the JMF Last-16 with Australia knocking out the Russians 45-39.

That's a bloody brilliant result! I really hope they recorded that for Youtube, and that our boys see them in the final.

Lefty Foilist
-10th April 2016, 12:23
Amid all the excitement, Australia now trailing to a Latvian team that knocked out Hungary, and Denmark up against Italy.

What a day, what a lovely day!

dtd
-10th April 2016, 12:30
GBR currently 22 all in their match with USA!

Lefty Foilist
-10th April 2016, 12:43
GB 35-33 ahead. Brilliant fight so far.

dtd
-10th April 2016, 12:43
GBR now in the lead 35v33

Lefty Foilist
-10th April 2016, 12:48
GB up 40-36. They can do this!

Lefty Foilist
-10th April 2016, 12:58
Win! 45-41!

dtd
-10th April 2016, 12:59
Congratulations. Great win. That was a really good fight to watch.

Not quite a Vet
-10th April 2016, 13:00
JMF Team fantastic into L4, great scalp beating the Americans.
Keep it going Lads...

Keith.A.Smith
-10th April 2016, 14:15
Good news and good luck to the MF team.

Lefty Foilist
-10th April 2016, 14:36
Soundly beaten by Japan, 18-45. But they fight it out for bronze at 15:15 UK time against Latvia.

Keith.A.Smith
-10th April 2016, 14:52
Good luck to the team. A medal is a real possibility.

pinkelephant
-10th April 2016, 15:56
Bronze medal - fantastic result, boys.

dtd
-10th April 2016, 15:57
Congratulations. A medal is a fantastic result.

Danum
-10th April 2016, 15:57
Well done to team GB on the bronze medal today - saved the best til last

pinkelephant
-10th April 2016, 16:08
And kudos to Alex Lloyd for fencing on with a painful injury. Wonderful stuff, adrenaline!

Foilling Around
-10th April 2016, 17:27
So chuffed for a great bunch of lads, they have worked very hard for this. Also for Pierre and Linda, Ziemek, Maciej and Andrey.

Having watched these lads as the TM in the individuals and teams in Bratislava and in the individuals in Terrasa, they fence SO much better as a team than as individuals. With all three now leaving Juniors, can they translate this into individual senior results?

Harry, Dom the rest have a great target now, I'm sure they can live up to it.

Danum
-10th April 2016, 17:43
I saw the state of Alex's big toe at the Euros. I would have found walking almost impossible. Respect!

Keith.A.Smith
-10th April 2016, 18:00
Congratulations on the Bronze medal. Very well done.

Keith

JackSparrow
-10th April 2016, 20:05
Great result for men's foil team. Really pleased for them.

caranza
-10th April 2016, 21:30
In the spirit of shouting from the rooftops about great achievements ...
WELL DONE ON THE BRONZE !!!!!
... And massive congratulations to the support network within and outside of the sport.

cesh_fencing
-10th April 2016, 21:33
Well done.. Amazing result..

JohnL
-11th April 2016, 00:16
Unfortunately I was fencing in a tournament myself today so couldn't follow the boys progress.

Massive, massive congratulations guys!!!! Great result!!!!

Well done.

Fleetfoot
-11th April 2016, 08:16
No doubt British Fencing's latest news on the website will catch up soon.
Very pleased for the guys and their coaches.

plenty
-21st April 2016, 08:48
hello,
can anyone advise - have been searching high and low for video of JMF team match GB V USA and i can't find ! if anyone has seen pls may post a link here ( it was epic result , just fantastic )
would be very grateful
kind regards
mark

pinkelephant
-21st April 2016, 09:56
hello,
can anyone advise - have been searching high and low for video of JMF team match GB V USA and i can't find ! if anyone has seen pls may post a link here ( it was epic result , just fantastic )
would be very grateful
kind regards
mark

Video didn't start till the last 8, and this was a last 16 match.

Australian
-21st April 2016, 10:40
We did have video from the 16 in foil and sabre, it's just that half the matches were in a second hall with a second set of video replay systems that weren't on a live stream.

Thankfully the GBR-USA match was in the main hall, and the stream was running. Link below:

https://youtu.be/qlBTWa4SEXA?t=5118