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KayJay
-2nd June 2004, 11:09
Has anyone tried these foil handles? feedback, please...

http://www.siroccostation.btinternet.co.uk/classicfencing/shop.htm

oddball
-7th June 2004, 10:38
Looks interesting...

Shaolin Monkey
-7th June 2004, 11:20
how long have they been on the market?

J_D
-7th June 2004, 13:36
everything on that site makes me want to yell "RUN AWAY!!!"

gbm
-7th June 2004, 14:17
A grip for people who are too stuck up their own **** to realise that pistol grips are not evil...

gbm
-7th June 2004, 14:17
They might possibly be illegal as well, though probably not.

Too expensive to be worth it though.

Shaolin Monkey
-7th June 2004, 14:35
how would they be illegal, too long?

Rdb811
-7th June 2004, 14:39
The only rule can think of is the "pistol grips you could pommel with" one which is fairly rare anyway.

I can't see that there is a problem with these.

Shaolin Monkey
-7th June 2004, 14:40
wouldn't they class more as french grips because they use a full length tang?

Rdb811
-7th June 2004, 14:44
I would say they were a French Grip and, in fact you couldn't pmeel with them anyway. Th flat bit for the thumb guides the thumb not the manipulators.

Shaolin Monkey
-7th June 2004, 14:47
Ah fair enough, sorry i'm a novice that is trying to learn a little too fast.

gbm
-7th June 2004, 15:07
Originally posted by Rdb811
I would say they were a French Grip and, in fact you couldn't pmeel with them anyway. Th flat bit for the thumb guides the thumb not the manipulators.

I would agree that they probably aren't illegal, but the FIE might not like them, because they aren't traditional French grips. Probably not though. You could definitely pommel with them though.

Australian
-7th June 2004, 15:37
Originally posted by goodbadandme
You could definitely pommel with them though.

nonono

its an orthopaedic grip (to my eyes), so the thumb has to be positioned less than 2cm away from the guard.

More than one way of holding it is disputable.

Rdb811
-7th June 2004, 15:47
It looks OK on the 2cm rule.

I still think it lacks the features of a pistol grip, such as aids for the manipulators.

Anyway, we're splitting hairs - are thses any good ?

gbm
-7th June 2004, 15:52
If you see it as an orthopaedic grip, then under the rules you should not allow it because you could pommel, and therefore could easily hold it in more than one way...

gbm
-7th June 2004, 15:54
Originally posted by Rdb811
Anyway, we're splitting hairs - are thses any good ?

Are French grips? Because the difference will be small...

uk_45
-7th June 2004, 16:27
These by the look of them should have good point control and feel comfy in the hand. I would think you could hold them in more than one way

Australian
-7th June 2004, 16:42
Originally posted by goodbadandme
If you see it as an orthopaedic grip, then under the rules you should not allow it because you could pommel, and therefore could easily hold it in more than one way...

it is an orthopaedic grip - it has aids to assist the holding of the weapon.

I say illegal.

3CT, Keith, ihunter, any thoughts?

uk_45
-7th June 2004, 16:50
What grounds u saying it's illegal on? You can hold it in many different ways for example on the side looks doable.

gbm
-7th June 2004, 17:07
Italian grips are not classed as orthopaedic - they are given special permission I believe?
It might be decided these were just French grips. It might not be.
But when in doubt...

gbm
-7th June 2004, 17:10
Originally posted by uk_45
What grounds u saying it's illegal on? You can hold it in many different ways for example on the side looks doable.

If it is considered orthopaedic, specifically if it has attachments to aid holding it, then it must fix the position of the hand so that it can only be easily held one way. If it was decided to be orthopaedic, it is easy to hold it lots of ways, so it would be illegal.

uk_45
-7th June 2004, 17:15
As far as i know it doesn't matter how easy to hold it is as long as you can hold it a different way, look at pistal grips. They count as having more than one way to hold them. You ever tried holding them differently it aint easy!

gbm
-7th June 2004, 17:33
:rolleyes:
The rules are that it must only be possible to hold 'grips with attachments' (pistol grips) one way. You can only hold most pistol grips one way, so they are legal. You can hold a Gardere many ways, for example the normal way or you can pommel, so they are illegal. You can obviously hold this many ways, so if it is classed as having attachments, then it too is illegal.

uk_45
-7th June 2004, 18:01
I'm sure it is that it CANT lock the hand in one posistion. Plus since when is pommeling illegal!

uk_45
-7th June 2004, 18:03
Ok Ok i'm wrong rules for orthopedic grips seem to be different.



6. If the grip (or glove) includes any device or attachment or has a special shape (orthopaedic) which fixes the position of the hand on the grip, the grip must conform to the following conditions.

(a) It must determine and fix one position only for the hand on the grip.

(b) When the hand occupies this one position on the grip, the extremity
of the thumb when completely extended must not be more than 2 cm from the inner surface of the guard.

gbm
-7th June 2004, 18:04
:grin: :moon: :moon: :moon: :moon: :grin:

Told you so. Italian grips are allowed, however.

Shaolin Monkey
-7th June 2004, 19:51
Originally posted by Shaolin Monkey
Ah fair enough, sorry i'm a novice that is trying to learn a little too fast.
But nevertheless learning

nirvana
-7th June 2004, 19:57
What is Pommeling? and what makes it illegal?

Shaolin Monkey
-7th June 2004, 20:03
Pommelling is where you grip the end of a long handle at the furthest part from the guard, in the case of french grips, this is the pommel, dont know why its illegal though, a pistol grip is usually shorter than a french and a lot more difficult to pommel with in a controlled manner anyway.

- I think...

nirvana
-7th June 2004, 20:08
oh yeah, i know. Never understood why people did this because it must make your blade controll worse.

uk_45
-7th June 2004, 20:11
It isn't illegal it isn;t on a offence sheet it the rule book and ive seen people use it. However normal a desent beat knocks the sword out of the opponets hand as the grip is much weaker

TBennett
-7th June 2004, 21:10
Pommelling DOES NOT make blade/point control worse.....(world champion at mens epee is a pommeller). It gives the user 1-3 inches extra reach. Makes parrying harder and less effective though hence a pommeller's style will usually be about kepping distance and avoiding the opponents blade....picking them off with stophits etc..

anyway, pommelling is only done as you mention in epee... I dont think pommelling is seen in foil (definately not sabre)

uk_45
-7th June 2004, 21:21
I have seen it in sabre kinda of wrapping hand around the bottom of the grip with the pommel going into the palm

gbm
-7th June 2004, 21:47
Pommelling is not illegal, but under the rules you should only be able to do it with a non-orthopaedic grip. If you could do it with a pistol, that pistol should be illegal. Although theoretically you can pommel with most (legal) pistol grips, they are so difficult to hold like that (intentionally so) that it is considered that you cannot pommel with them.

Rdb811
-7th June 2004, 23:57
Originally posted by uk_45

6. If the grip (or glove) includes any device or attachment or has a special shape (orthopaedic) which fixes the position of the hand on the grip, the grip must conform to the following conditions.

(a) It must determine and fix one position only for the hand on the grip.

(b) When the hand occupies this one position on the grip, the extremity
of the thumb when completely extended must not be more than 2 cm from the inner surface of the guard.

The grip has a 'spoon' that roughly guides the position of the thumb NOT the hand - perfectly legal.

pinkelephant
-8th June 2004, 08:05
Graham Paul pommels at foil - and 3CT used to sometimes.

J_D
-8th June 2004, 09:40
Originally posted by pinkelephant
Graham Paul pommels at foil - and 3CT used to sometimes.

yep, he beat me at foil in the Vets Championships earlier this year pommelling with one of those tennis raquet type handles LP make now

uk_45
-8th June 2004, 10:37
You can pommel with a french easily that aint a illegal grip is it

gbm
-8th June 2004, 12:41
There is no rule against pommelling. The rule is that a grip is illegal if it is orthopaedic and you could pommel with it.

Dalby
-8th June 2004, 17:03
Originally posted by goodbadandme
A grip for people who are too stuck up their own **** to realise that pistol grips are not evil... :eek: From French Grip partisan to Ortho Grip Jihadi in the space of a month! (Of course, this isn't the pot calling the kettle black; honest guv! :confused: )


Originally posted by J_D
everything on that site makes me want to yell "RUN AWAY!!!" Agreed!

To be constructive, though, this grip does look like a bit of a developmental blind alley: the shaping of the grip looks as though it would inhibit the finger manipulation without giving you the strength of grip that you'd get using a proper ortho handle.


Originally posted by Rdb811
The grip has a 'spoon' that roughly guides the position of the thumb NOT the hand - perfectly legal. It also has quite a number of other protrusions, lumps and bumps to position the grip against the palm and the other fingers. I think you could very easily argue these are sufficient to make it guide the hand and fall into the ortho grip definition.

Gav
-8th June 2004, 17:11
It says "Classic Fencing" on that website, What else do you need to know? Read the blurb on the intro page. I'm tempted to email the webmaster however I do have better thngs to do,

uk_45
-8th June 2004, 17:14
Classic fencing with new designed parts surley thats a oxymoron!

Australian
-8th June 2004, 17:14
Originally posted by Dalby
It also has quite a number of other protrusions, lumps and bumps to position the grip against the palm and the other fingers. I think you could very easily argue these are sufficient to make it guide the hand and fall into the ortho grip definition.

thats my opinion on it... because the grooves and stuff are designed to fix the hand into a position - however there is a very obvious alternate way to hold the grip (pommelling) thus making it illegal.

Just to clarify for a few: pommelling itself is not illegal, but it is not permitted on an orthopaedic grip

uk_45
-8th June 2004, 17:18
I'm so glad some one on here has brains!

gbm
-8th June 2004, 17:31
More precisely it is not permitted to be possible. ;)

sparkymark567
-8th June 2004, 23:33
they look absolute rubbish, worse than a french grip. I might pay 50p just to try one (for a laugh). although you could probably fool some peeps in to buying them, perhaps call it a pro handle and charge maybe 8.50.