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Pete Eames
-10th March 2017, 06:38
Have I got this right: the FIE and the organisers of the Junior World Fencing Championships competition are happy for us to send a full team to the JWFC, the unpaid management of the GBR squads are happy to spend their own time selecting full teams, the fencers know they have to completely self fund, and decent results from competition in that competition will provide a promotion in world rankings making an easier path the following year, but the paid Performance Director of BF decides they are not prepared to authorise the sending of any fencers at all?

Perhaps it's time to look at the performance of the Performance Director who, despite the GBR fencers at the Olympics doing better than for some years, did not do well enough to get funding from Sport UK for the 2020 Olympics.

When I was in my teens I tried very hard to qualify for the 1980 World Under 20 championships. I didn't quite make it. The selectors sent two epeeists and were torn between me and another for the third place but decided that neither of us were good enough. Fair point, I thought. But shortly after I dropped out of serious senior fencing. It wasn't helped by the decision at the 1980 Moscow Olympics to discourage GBR fencers from taking part in those games.

A few years later I started triathlon (swim, bike, run). There are age group world championships , all self funded. What that meant for me as a competitor was: the qualifying competitions were advertised, anyone could enter them, and whoever did the best would be invited by British Triathlon to go to the world championships for their particular age group. These were all 5 year age banded, and I think 12 triathletes could go in every category, so loads of triathletes could go. There are different event distances, sprint, standard, long, ironman. But what it meant was, it was possible to achieve a dream of taking part in a world championships and wearing 'Great Britain' on your back. I think most of us have heard how successful GBR is at triathlon, for example the Brownlee Brothers. Triathlon was at one point the fastest growing sport in GBR.

A few years ago my children started fencing, and I restarted. I was in my early 50s. British Veterans Fencing had now been created and I took part in a local competition, the 'age group qualifiers' for the (age banded) veterans world championships.

I realised that this could be my opportunity to take part in, and if I trained very hard, to do well in a (Veteran) World Fencing Championships.
I've decided I will give it a go, and am training hard for 2020 when I go up to the next age band and will be at my youngest in the category. I know that if I am in the top 4 in the qualifiers I will go. Therefore I have invested in training, lessons, competed in a wide range of competitions , bought kit, gone on training camps, regular physio. I believe that I am fully supported by British Veteran Fencing. To me, the thousands of pounds a year that I am investing in club and association membership, kit, training fees, competition entry fees, etc etc, (and therefore pumping a lot of my spare cash into various sectors of fencing in GBR) is worth it.

I then look at the other end of the age group in British Fencing, the Juniors. They start in a similar situation to me, having a dream to take part in their World Championships, ideally get a good result. On a good day, even win a World Championship title. They , and probably also their parents, know they will have to invest a lot in time, effort, cash, put other things in their lives to one side whilst they work on putting themselves in the best position to achieve their dream.

But then they hear that the Performance Director of BF won't send them, even if they are the best in GBR. Even if FIE and the World Championship Organisers would be happy for them to go. Even if they fund themselves. Even if the lead of the weapon in the GBR believes it is in the immediate and long term interest of the fencers and GBR fencing that these fencers go.

I ask, what would you do as an aspiring fencer knowing this is the situation? I'd probably do triathlon, or fence for a different country. Or hope the Performance Director of BF moves on. The first two would be in my control. The third one isn't.

Fleetfoot
-10th March 2017, 07:26
Not sure I am following.
GB is sending fencers to the world cup.
I must be missing something in the selection.
Are we not sending the full number we could do?
If so, what weapon?
Has the performance director made a decision I am not fully comprehending?
Sorry but wonder if you could spell this out more clearly.
Thanks v much.

Vicomte_de_Bragelonne
-10th March 2017, 09:19
Not sure I'm following either.

Cadet & Junior World Champs are in 3 weeks time. Here are the selections: http://britishfencing.com/GBR/2017_cadet_world_championships_selection/

hokers
-10th March 2017, 10:08
As I may have mentioned, I'm not a fan of discretionary selection.

Notable is that 7 Juniors qualified for the individual event by rights and 11 needed a discretionary place.

By comparison, in the seniors we have 1 qualified by rights for Europeans with 1-3 others who could make it with a good result at the last WCs before the deadline. Very hard for anyone who has missed the Europeans Senior standard to make Senior Worlds.

I think we should send the top 4 by ranking on the selection date in each age category for both individual and team to Europeans (with some discretion on the 4th place to deal with injury/walkover points). Anyone who wants to make a go of climbing the rankings in any given season really needs the *relatively* easier points on offer at zonal champs to not be at a ranking disadvantage throughout the WC season.
This applies to team events in particular. If you're going to do any, you should do a full season including Euros to give yourself a chance in the next season and not keep hitting one of the top 4 teams in the L16 every time.

I think we should apply a qualification standard to Worlds, but if less than 5 of all our international fencers across 6W are making it, then perhaps it's too high.

Ronald Velden
-10th March 2017, 10:12
My understanding is that British Fencing will maintain the existing qualification system set by the Performance Director until the end of this season. That will apply to both Senior and Junior selections.

Thereafter I believe there is likely to be a selection process based on merit and rankings rather than the current
discretionary process.

The reality is that this season very few fencers are likely to reach the proposed qualification standards particularly
at senior level where the targets were completely unrealistic.

Gav
-10th March 2017, 10:12
Given the state of the WCP, I don't think you'll be complaining about a Performance Director much longer either.

Ronald Velden
-10th March 2017, 10:37
Given the state of the WCP, I don't think you'll be complaining about a Performance Director much longer either.

All WCP funded posts cease on 31st March apart from PD, which I believe will continue until end of season under
transitional arrangements.

JackSparrow
-10th March 2017, 11:23
As I may have mentioned, I'm not a fan of discretionary selection.

You may have mentioned it once or twice 😉

ChrisHeaps
-10th March 2017, 11:38
You may have mentioned it once or twice 😉

:grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:

danKew
-10th March 2017, 11:57
The reality is that this season very few fencers are likely to reach the proposed qualification standards

It's a shocker ... I've just done some quick calcs (European Junior Championships JME) and these guys would have failed to qualify using BF qualification standards (20 points needed);

8th - Nicolas Poncin (0 points - 88th Lux, 74th Riga & 75th Basle)
10th - Max Busch (17 points - 42nd Lux, 108th Riga & 19th Basle)
14th - Kristian D'Amico (10 points - 85th Lux, 18th Riga & 143rd Basle)
18th - Damian Michalak (15 points - 18th Lux, 107th Riga & 50th Basle)
...

and those guys went to all 3 events. How about someone who only went to 2;

2nd - Federico Vismara (15 points - 82nd Riga & 13th Basle)

The picture doesn't change for World selection either - our selection policy would exclude Vismara from that as well (36th Espoo - 22 points, with 25 needed to meet qualification standard).

:shrug:

Nick E
-10th March 2017, 13:41
Whilst noting that a number of fencers failed to meet the criteria set for the Worlds and won't now be going the decision not to send a Team to specific events surely means that we start next season in a worse place than this year rather than improving our longer term position. Given the state of the WCP and indeed the relative improved performance seen in cadet weapons where investment has not been made maybe letting those self funding top ranked athletes the option to attend the event might have been useful. It's a pity that one legacy of the PD will be some junior teams lower ranked than they should be just to prove the rules of selection are right for the sport. Such a pity.

hokers
-10th March 2017, 14:48
Whilst noting that a number of fencers failed to meet the criteria set for the Worlds and won't now be going the decision not to send a Team to specific events surely means that we start next season in a worse place than this year rather than improving our longer term position.

If your fencers are all going to be self funded from this point (seems likely) then there's a LOT less chance they will enter teams in the World Cup competitions out of their own pockets.

I think if they are able to qualify a team for Senior Euros (WR top 10) and/or Senior Worlds (L8 at Euros) then they probably should try to enter a team all season if anyone can afford it still.
Currently:
MST WR 12th (2 points off 10th)
WST WR 29th (116 points off 10th)
MET No WR
WET No WR
MFT WR 9th (28 points clear of 11th)
WFT No WR

Ronald Velden
-10th March 2017, 15:01
Whilst noting that a number of fencers failed to meet the criteria set for the Worlds and won't now be going the decision not to send a Team to specific events surely means that we start next season in a worse place than this year rather than improving our longer term position. Given the state of the WCP and indeed the relative improved performance seen in cadet weapons where investment has not been made maybe letting those self funding top ranked athletes the option to attend the event might have been useful. It's a pity that one legacy of the PD will be some junior teams lower ranked than they should be just to prove the rules of selection are right for the sport. Such a pity.

I think that the BFA's expectations for qualification next season will be lower than in recent years and also there
will be a more balanced approach to all six weapons.

There will be a more pragmatic and realistic approach to the sport than we have seen in recent years. If there is
one lesson that should be learned by the sport it must be to grow the sport from the bottom and not what UK
Sport have done drive it from the top with disastrous consequences.

pavski
-10th March 2017, 15:34
Wonders whether the withdrawal of funding will actually be better for the health and sanity of those in the sport (fencers, parents and volunteers) in the longer run :confused:

Actually I reckon it will be.

Every cloud etc.

Fleetfoot
-10th March 2017, 18:15
So the issue is that BF only selected juniors for the individual World Champs who have qualified in their own right. BF could have sent the top four individuals, whether they had qualified outright or not, but decided against this for the individual competition.
I am following this issue now. If I've got it wrong, I expect you will all correct me.

Has there been any justification or explanation whatsoever of this from the Performance Director, Ms Newton, or BF's CEO, to whom, I believe, the PD reports? The PD is accountable, she does report to someone.

It seems to me to be foolish not to give an opportunity to the top ranked juniors to test themselves and to grow and develop. Without some rationale or explanation, the fencing community is left to reach its own conclusions.

I find this an especially odd strategy (limiting growth opportunities, not explaining why) when BF is seeking money from that very same fencing community to sustain the sport at a competitive level.

It is fair to say that the selection process at the junior level has become divisive. These fencers who work so hard, self fund, travel all over to compete for their country, deserve greater transparency.

Some comments on this thread suggest our Performance Director will depart when funding runs out or this competitive season for the seniors draws to a close. Do we know that to be the case? I have seen nothing to indicate this. And the crowd funding proposal suggests that the money raised will be used for staff costs, so presumably this means to pay the PD.

Would be great to have some clarity on this. It is dispiriting, to say the least.

Nick E
-10th March 2017, 19:37
If we look at JME you can see from the rankings the absence of last year juniors still competing, and having experienced an ever changing set of criteria for that specific year group I fully understand why that might be the case. The positive side of the absence of last year juniors is the emergence of younger fencers with more chance to gain experience over a longer period. The recent leadership change of Epee was welcomed by fencers and parents alike, and the financial support of The Epee Club gave real hope for these younger juniors coming through. So the best way to support this enthusiastic change is to exclude that weapon from the World Championships, specifically at Team level, making the hill to climb into a mountain. I'm sure that there will be a really good reason why the PD blocked the team entry, despite fencers (and parents as funders) and the support team apparently being willing to attend that event. That should keep our younger fencers motivated PD!!!!!

ED_R
-11th March 2017, 01:47
My fear is that we are doomed to go through an extended period in which the old dogma continues until we have thoroughly proven ideas like not selecting our best fencers for World Championships as throughly destructive and bad.

I hope for a new broom in BF. The funding changes have changed the game utterly, I would guess. I realise that those in charge will need time to work out a strategy for the new reality.

I don't believe the crowdfunding for WCP will work if it supports so-called strong weapons, rather than strong fencers.

When members consider whether to fund the sport, I think that those who are not the immediate beneficiaries will only spend once they have a clearer picture of what the money will be spent on. The spending plan needs to be credible.

I believe the members will spend their own money more wisely in fencing than did Sport UK, and I hope members will not only support themselves.

My view is that we need a vision and leader we can all unite behind, so we don't end up as a series of vested interest groups who happen to attach to an NGB for insurance, and late updated (with some noble exceptions) ranking lists.

Paul N-M
-11th March 2017, 07:15
My fear is that we are doomed to go through an extended period in which the old dogma continues until we have thoroughly proven ideas like not selecting our best fencers for World Championships as throughly destructive and bad.

I hope for a new broom in BF. The funding changes have changed the game utterly, I would guess. I realise that those in charge will need time to work out a strategy for the new reality.

I don't believe the crowdfunding for WCP will work if it supports so-called strong weapons, rather than strong fencers.

When members consider whether to fund the sport, I think that those who are not the immediate beneficiaries will only spend once they have a clearer picture of what the money will be spent on. The spending plan needs to be credible.

I believe the members will spend their own money more wisely in fencing than did Sport UK, and I hope members will not only support themselves.

My view is that we need a vision and leader we can all unite behind, so we don't end up as a series of vested interest groups who happen to attach to an NGB for insurance, and late updated (with some noble exceptions) ranking lists.

Wheather you love or hate the PD one thing that our CEO must do quickly is be clear what will happen and when to the PD job.

Nick E
-11th March 2017, 07:48
After looking again at the JME rankings I find myself asking the question: why isn't our current top ranked JME fencer going to the Worlds?

Everything I have heard and read about phasing performance to peak at the right time in the season comes into play for that individual, who went to the Euros and ranked 12th. But because we as a sport decided that he hadn't peaked early enough, one of the top 16 best fencers in the Euros isn't good enough to represent GB at the Worlds. Do all other countries seriously select for the Worlds before the Euros results are taken into account? And if so, surely their selection is based on predicted performance at both events, not just the one.

There are too many blocks to our fencers being able to represent GB at the moment, and as everyone is pretty much self funding, why does the PD seemingly want to do everything in her power to stop high performing fencers from developing. Still very odd.

ED_R
-11th March 2017, 10:04
Wheather you love or hate the PD one thing that our CEO must do quickly is be clear what will happen and when to the PD job.

Only for some of the vested interest groups, though, Paul. That was rather my point.

The future is poor until the mindset changes. Will yours? #sportukhangover

Sara
-11th March 2017, 13:07
Does anyone know the date(s) when the PD is leaving and when the rules she has put into place are no longer in force?

Fleetfoot
-11th March 2017, 16:13
Wheather you love or hate the PD one thing that our CEO must do quickly is be clear what will happen and when to the PD job.

I agree. There has been no clarity around the future of BFs infrastructure, beyond the crowd fund appeal.
Maybe one of us should email the CEO and Chairman....and ask what's happening.

ED_R
-11th March 2017, 17:59
Does anyone know the date(s) when the PD is leaving and when the rules she has put into place are no longer in force?

You think the plan will change when she does? Look at the crowdfunding plan.

Fleetfoot
-11th March 2017, 18:43
You think the plan will change when she does? Look at the crowdfunding plan.

Good point. I took a look.
From the crowd funding appeal:

Why are we raising money?
This funding appeal is specifically to maintain our performance programme for the rest of the season so that we can send a well prepared team to both the European and the World Championships.

All money raised will be used to support the senior athletes on our international performance programme both in training and competition. Funds will be used in two areas:

the continuation of our training programme which is designed to help our athletes maximise their potential and ultimately win medals at the European Championships in Tiblisi and the World Championships in Leipzig
international travel and competition expenses including the European and World Championships
In order to achieve our goals we will need to pay for a dedicated training facility, coaches, plus support staff (e.g. a strength and conditioning coach).

Two important words there: maintain and continue.

Nick E
-11th March 2017, 19:30
But at least we now have :

".......a recognised World Class Performance Programme supporting only those athletes with the ability and aspiration to be world class and medal winning"

(Taken from the PDs profile on the BF Executive page)

Paul N-M
-11th March 2017, 19:32
I don't dissagree with your view. I think those on the international circuit will keep their money to spend on themselves and not crowd funding. So the rest of us are being asked to pay for them and endorse the current philosophy. Most fencers it would seem do not support the MF or bust approach and if that is to be continued as seems to be being suggested by BF the outcome will be very little crowd funding. At the moment I understand almost half raised so far is from one generous individual.
BF have to understand that the money is gone, its not coming back any time soon but fencers still need their governing body to allow them to aspire for cadet/junior and senior representation in all weapons.
Fencers and fencing parents will vote with their feet and walk away from our sport. The sport so many of us spend hours of our time encouraging new participants to join through club programmes all over the UK.
A reality check seems to be required but who is listening?

ED_R
-11th March 2017, 19:35
But at least we now have :

".......a recognised World Class Performance Programme supporting only those athletes with the ability and aspiration to be world class and medal winning"

(Taken from the PDs profile on the BF Executive page)

So what a surprise. The unpaid people around the PD agree with the plan. You know - the one which Sports UK wouldn't invest in.

So now we are being asked to help fund the pathway for foil and sabre. Did I miss the spending plan for the money coming from Sports England? I am guessing its "maintain and continue" - but happy to be proven wrong.

SportsUK expected to know how the money they put in was going to be spent. I would suggest (at the possible risk of being blackballed from British Fencing) that members thinking of investing, should expect the same.

The plan failed. Our fencers are held to a rigid results oriented discipline. Those in charge of British Fencing should be held to the same high ideal.

Alternatively the fencers can go to World Championships to learn. And British Fencing can remain and learn to govern the sport effectively.

Nick E
-11th March 2017, 19:40
A reality check seems to be required but who is listening?

Pete has run the same info on Facebook, and Georgina has engaged and asked for concerns to be raised directly with her. Almost certainly too late for those fencers missing out this year though, which is still a real shame.

ED_R
-11th March 2017, 20:12
Pete has run the same info on Facebook, and Georgina has engaged and asked for concerns to be raised directly with her. Almost certainly too late for those fencers missing out this year though, which is still a real shame.

Sorry. You think she was unaware?

Nick E
-11th March 2017, 20:29
Sorry. You think she was unaware?

No. And it's still disappointing that nothing appears to have been done to allow our top ranked JME fencer to attend the Worlds, or to resolve the position of JME being the only weapon without a Team attending.

One has to wonder about the terms and conditions of the appointment of the PD, and any link to funding streams, because no one seems able to challenge rather odd decisions being made .....

ED_R
-11th March 2017, 20:43
No. And it's still disappointing that nothing appears to have been done to allow our top ranked JME fencer to attend the Worlds, or to resolve the position of JME being the only weapon without a Team attending.

One has to wonder about the terms and conditions of the appointment of the PD, and any link to funding streams, because no one seems able to challenge rather odd decisions being made .....

You think they wanted to question the odd decisions? They are continuing, and the PD is going.

Who can be sure what the plan is. If it is different, let the people who are in charge speak up. But if they dont, assume its maintain and continue.

Nick E
-11th March 2017, 21:01
You think they wanted to question the odd decisions? They are continuing, and the PD is going.

Who can be sure what the plan is. If it is different, let the people who are in charge speak up. But if they dont, assume its maintain and continue.

Is the PD going? Or do we just assume she is because of funding changes? After six years we will need a good redundancy pot. So maybe she is the one to stay???

danKew
-11th March 2017, 21:30
Do have the link for that Nick?


Pete has run the same info on Facebook, and Georgina has engaged and asked for concerns to be raised directly with her. Almost certainly too late for those fencers missing out this year though, which is still a real shame.

ED_R
-11th March 2017, 21:34
"I've replied to Pete on his various points and if anyone wishes to write to me at BF I'll happily go through it all with them too. Suffice to say that this isn't a 100% accurate post and in some cases misleading. I guess it's a lot more fun to have a go at individuals on Facebook than it is to seek the truth which is often a lot more boring. Anyway at the end of the day if you don't trust the crowd funding campaign I do hope that you reach out and fund an athlete directly!"

Materially correct, I suspect.

pavski
-12th March 2017, 00:12
"I've replied to Pete on his various points and if anyone wishes to write to me at BF I'll happily go through it all with them too. Suffice to say that this isn't a 100% accurate post and in some cases misleading. I guess it's a lot more fun to have a go at individuals on Facebook than it is to seek the truth which is often a lot more boring. Anyway at the end of the day if you don't trust the crowd funding campaign I do hope that you reach out and fund an athlete directly!"

Materially correct, I suspect.


No mention of what the"truth" actually is though.

ED_R
-12th March 2017, 00:56
No mention of what the"truth" actually is though.

Which is why I wont be investing in the crowdfunding. This time round the tune will stop when people stop putting money in the machine. I actually see this as supporting the sport for the long term.

Sorry.

Ronald Velden
-12th March 2017, 11:13
Does anyone know the date(s) when the PD is leaving and when the rules she has put into place are no longer in force?

My understanding is that PD leaves at end of season post European and World Championships. Most probably July.

As I wrote earlier the BFA will make decisions for NEXT SEASON, which are more equitable and based on merit
rather than the current format, which is results driven and discretionary. I don't think that is a secret.

For a start I think that most people in the sport understand that Epee has had a fairly raw deal in the past which
has had a fairly damaging impact on weapon. I am fairly sure that will be reversed and there will be a level playing
field from September.

ED_R
-12th March 2017, 12:24
I don't think that is a secret.

It is not in the public domain.

It was only twelve months ago that we waited for the privately briefed senior epee squad to be announced officially. It turned out instead that those on the pathway were dropped without even the courtesy of a note to let them know.

"That most people in the sport realise that epee has had a raw deal in the past" and "fairly sure that will be reversed" (my emphasis) are no reassurances for future good behaviour.

Similarly the decisions (presumably) "had a fairly damaging effect on the weapon" doesn't leave me with much hope either.

Ronald Velden
-12th March 2017, 12:43
It is not in the public domain.

It was only twelve months ago that we waited for the privately briefed senior epee squad to be announced officially. It turned out instead that those on the pathway were dropped without even the courtesy of a note to let them know.

"That most people in the sport realise that epee has had a raw deal in the past" and "fairly sure that will be reversed" (my emphasis) are no reassurances for future good behaviour.

Similarly the decisions (presumably) "had a fairly damaging effect on the weapon" doesn't leave me with much hope either.

The dynamics of the sport have changed since UK Sport made the decision to withdraw funding. That means that
the sport is going to revert back to a "volunteer" system. If athletes are no longer full-time professionals you cannot wave a stick to control how they train or compete.

I am confident that more realistic targets will be imposed on selection process and qualification for European
and World Championships. That will mean that the discretion process will go out of the window.

However, competing for International Events will be driven by an ability to pay for them. I suspect that the BFA
will probably only raise sufficient funds to cover Team Selections to European and World Championships. If you
want to go to Grand Prix, World Cups or Satellites the cost will have to be met by the athletes finding resources
to go.

coach carson
-12th March 2017, 13:01
The dynamics of the sport have changed since UK Sport made the decision to withdraw funding. That means that
the sport is going to revert back to a "volunteer" system. If athletes are no longer full-time professionals you cannot wave a stick to control how they train or compete.


You'd have thought so. But then you get declarations like this - you can go self funded, but you also have to pay for a coach. Why would you want to pay for someone else's coach?

http://britishfencing.com/news/latest-news/?n=1695

ED_R
-12th March 2017, 13:09
The dynamics of the sport have changed since UK Sport made the decision to withdraw funding.

I see no evidence of that. I actually see more evidence of an attempt to continue the policy but without the money.

I am also concerned that Pete Eames, with his central role in promoting LP Centre Epee (which appears from the outside at least to have been running epee) raises this issue.

What is missing is an official announcement.

When we are the level of an official suggesting his note is not 100% correct (despite it being absolutely clear that the important bit is correct), when one of the only things in the public domain is evidence of the selection he is complaining about, then you will perhaps concede that there is good reason for me to remain a long way from sharing your confidence.

Ronald Velden
-12th March 2017, 14:26
I see no evidence of that. I actually see more evidence of an attempt to continue the policy but without the money.

I am also concerned that Pete Eames, with his central role in promoting LP Centre Epee (which appears from the outside at least to have been running epee) raises this issue.

What is missing is an official announcement.

When we are the level of an official suggesting his note is not 100% correct (despite it being absolutely clear that the important bit is correct), when one of the only things in the public domain is evidence of the selection he is complaining about, then you will perhaps concede that there is good reason for me to remain a long way from sharing your confidence.

As I said before the qualification system for this season will not be reversed. That I have on good authority.

However, the system will change next season, because the discretion system will not be applied and all fencers
will have an equal chance to qualify.

The only impediment will be the cost of competition. It is unlikely that the BFA will have resources to fund selected fencers beyond perhaps European and World Championships.

I do know for example that one of Britain's elite athletes has made arrangements to fund his training and sport,
but has made the decision to compete in tournaments which are realistically affordable. in other words he will not be travelling to World Cups and Grand Prix in Asia.

Nick E
-12th March 2017, 15:00
...........I think that most people in the sport understand that Epee has had a fairly raw deal in the past which has had a fairly damaging impact on weapon. I am fairly sure that will be reversed and there will be a level playing field from September.

I think Epee is still having a fairly raw deal, and the decision by the PD (and I am assured it was her decision to overrule those now leading Epee) not to send a JME Team to the Worlds will leave a legacy of further disadvantage following her departure.

Waiting until September is too late.

Epee has put together its own rescue plan supported by the Epee Club, and endorsed by BF. And well done to all involved in that plan. However instead of supporting this plan, which was devised by those trying to reduce further damage to the weapon, it would seem that the PD is intent on one last twist of the knife. Or that is certainly how this has been presented. Let's hope that fencers affected by this decision are still keen to invest their money next season.

Pete Eames
-12th March 2017, 15:26
I start by apologising both to readers and to BF, for any inaccuracies and for any misleading comments in my post, If it is misleading, that wasnít my intention, nor was it my intention to have a bit of fun or post something which was not boring. Georgina Usher, CEO of BF, has replied directly to me, and corrected me. I wonít publish Georginaís reply to me, because that is a private email, but I should identify some of my inaccuracies.

There is a team of fencers going to the Junior World Championships, but there will not be a GBR team taking part in the Menís Team Epee event. (What prompted me to write the post was my thought that it was the decision of only one person not to send a Menís Epee Team)

GB fencers are subsidised.

There is a published selection policy see: http://www.britishfencing.com/uploads/files/junior_selection_policy_2016_2017_final.pdf which sets out BFís policy for selection, for both individual and team events. But I hadnít re-read this before posting. However I have now and found paragraph 31 quite interesting. My opinion that the top 4 in the rankings should go to [Junior] World Championships is contrary to the current policy. The current BF policy is that the fencers should achieve a qualification standard before they can be selected.

One purpose for writing the post was to give my personal view of an alternative selection process for fencers as they go through the various age groups, Cadet, Junior, Under 23, Senior, so hopefully they donít drop out having reached the top of one age group. I guess most of us, as we progress through those age groups, donít have the self -belief that we are extremely likely to win a Cadet, Junior, Under 23, Senior, World Championship title. But equally we are unlikely to be satisfied with just being selected and getting thrashed when we get there. We will want to do well, and on a perfect day, win a medal or even a title. Most of us are amateurs, doing the sport in addition to the [more] important things in our lives, e.g. school, college, university, job, marriage, family. Hopefully, once we have got through more important events and times in our lives, to have an incentive to come back and continue trying to achieve selection for a World or European Championships.

A knock-on benefit of having sent more fencers to previous team and individual events, is that more points would have been earned, then future teams would be ranked higher, leading on to better results. A snowball effect.

On the other hand, I can see an argument that with a performance standard; if a fencer believes they are clearly the best in GBR, they will qualify anyway, and therefore donít need to bother training hard to achieve a good international qualifying result. Therefore they might not achieve as much as they could have at the World Championships as they would have, if they had had to have trained hard to reach the qualifying standard.

I previously referred to my experience in Triathlon. Triathlon has two sets of World Championships, the Age Group World Championships and the ĎBrownlee Brothersí type [professional] World Championships; selection for the first is by getting in the top of the qualifying events, although for remaining places the athletes should be within a certain percentage time of the winner. https://www.britishtriathlon.org/gb-teams/age-group/about-age-group-triathlon Selection for the second is tough, and based on certain results in certain (usually) international competitions, but not always, I canít summarise several pages in a sentence or two, but see: https://www.britishtriathlon.org/britain/documents/gb-teams/selection-policies/2017-policies/2017-senior-selection-policies-key-criteria-overview.pdf

I canít provide a good evidence based submission to the BF Board to consider a change, that either reducing the qualification standard or changing to a performance standard will result in better international results. I can say that the British Veterans Fencing selection process has encouraged me to have a several year training plan, with a view to future qualification and success in European and World Veteran Championships, knowing that if I am the best in GBR at that time I will be selected.

I do share BFís aim, and Iím sure the wish of most of the readers of this post, and the membership of BF, for GBR fencers of any age group, team and individual events, to get the best results as possible internationally, at European and World Championships and of course The Olympic Games. There are requests for cash to help achieve this, either to BF http://britishfencing.com/news/latest-news/?n=1689 or specifically epee: http://www.epeeclub.org.uk/cio/ - (I know it is possible to support epee by setting up a monthly standing order).

ED_R
-12th March 2017, 15:31
instead of supporting this plan, which was devised by those trying to reduce further damage to the weapon, it would seem that the PD is intent on one last twist of the knife. Or that is certainly how this has been presented. Let's hope that fencers affected by this decision are still keen to invest their money next season.

Hear hear.

Nick E
-12th March 2017, 16:58
Your update is really helpful Pete, and the selection criteria need to stimulate high performance not support selection by being the least bad of a group who don't feel they are required to perform. I don't think it's that simple though for Epee at the moment.

A number of the many changes to selection criteria and performance support have impacted in my view on Epee more than other weapons, including changing the Nationals impacting on an already successful Epee competition running in that slot. I still haven't seen that long standing event publicised this year and wonder if it has been killed off by the BF actions - that would be another disappointment.

The impact of change in JME is that older fencers have stepped away from selection events giving younger fencers more opportunity, but with less potential experience to perform. With the loss of funding and impact for the WCP the whole selection process becomes more questionable, and we had an opportunity to deviate from stated expectation to build a solid base for the weapon. You mention that selection criteria need to be applied to give value, yet the way the criteria have been devised we have a fencer who performed in the top 16 in the Europeans not seen as 'good enough' within the terms of the criteria to go to the Worlds. I wonder how many other countries will exclude such talent because the fencer peaked at the right point in the season.

We are in a period of transition for Epee where strong leadership has been put into place and funding options are being explored. We are not in the place we expected to be had external funding been secured. I still hold out a hope that someone at BF might reward the performance of our current top ranked JME fencer, and in doing so will also support the team position. Reading between the lines of your post, unfortunately I fear I might hope in vain.

Foilling Around
-12th March 2017, 17:16
On the Epee point, it could be solved by a simple insertion to the qualifying criteria.

"Where an incomplete team has been selected for the World Championships, if a fencer at the European Championships achieves as qualifying result for the World Championships, that fencer can be added to the World Championships Team. NOTE: No fencer already selected can be displaced from the team by this action."

Nick E
-12th March 2017, 17:33
On the Epee point, it could be solved by a simple insertion to the qualifying criteria.

"Where an incomplete team has been selected for the World Championships, if a fencer at the European Championships achieves as qualifying result for the World Championships, that fencer can be added to the World Championships Team. NOTE: No fencer already selected can be displaced from the team by this action."

Lots could be done Paul, and almost certainly will be for next season. The pity is that the GB JME ranking will be lower next season because no Team went to the Worlds, so those working to support Epee going forward are further back than they needed to be.

Surely there is / was time between the Euros and the Worlds to take an executive view and reward positive performance for one individual if nothing else. I believe those leading Epee asked but were refused, because the selection rules didn't allow it. Results from the Euros only count towards the following years selection, not the year in which you peak ..... Very odd.

danKew
-12th March 2017, 18:09
On the other hand, I can see an argument that with a performance standard; if a fencer believes they are clearly the best in GBR, they will qualify anyway, and therefore donít need to bother training hard to achieve a good international qualifying result. Therefore they might not achieve as much as they could have at the World Championships as they would have, if they had had to have trained hard to reach the qualifying standard.

I strongly disagree with this statement and I really hope this isn't the underlying basis for the selection criteria as it stands. Any fencer who gets to the top of the GBR rankings at cadet/junior level has already put a shift in, shown great commitment and will be working hard to maintain their National/European/World standing. Where is the evidence that they aren't, and that this makes a difference and produces better results. All it currently does, as I see it, is preclude our fencers from competing at the highest level and deny opportunity. I'm a long way from being sold on this being the right thing to do for the future of (epee) fencing in GBR. Maybe I'm missing the obvious!

ED_R
-12th March 2017, 18:38
It seems to me to be a misunderstanding of how people think.

My view is that denying access to competitions has the effect of damaging everyone. Fencers, coaches and organisers.

If you really believe that the fencers you have are not training hard enough, and you need to impose performance standards, then you need to make the targets stretching but achievable. If it is not achievable then you will not encourage training, or even participation. You will do the opposite.

pavski
-12th March 2017, 19:06
It seems to me to be a misunderstanding of how people think.

My view is that denying access to competitions has the effect of damaging everyone. Fencers, coaches and organisers.

If you really believe that the fencers you have are not training hard enough, and you need to impose performance standards, then you need to make the targets stretching but achievable. If it is not achievable then you will not encourage training, or even participation. You will do the opposite.

Which is why the policies driven by one person have had a disproportionately adverse effect on the sport as a whole. Far in excess of the weighting of their position within it.

Nick E
-12th March 2017, 19:09
If you really believe that the fencers you have are not training hard enough, and you need to impose performance standards, then you need to make the targets stretching but achievable. If it is not achievable then you will not encourage training, or even participation. You will do the opposite.

Thank goodness we have a Performance Director who understands these things so that the rest of the fencing community doesn't have to. I wonder how we will cope when she leaves.

ED_R
-12th March 2017, 19:28
Which is why the policies driven by one person have had a disproportionately adverse effect on the sport as a whole. Far in excess of the weighting of their position within it.
But the real questions are how much have we learned from it, and what are the key differences between what the PD did, and what the next wave of administrators are going to do.

The Crowdfunding "Maintain and continue". The refusal to change selection to recognise better performance at the Europeans in the selection for the worlds.

Just at the minute it seems suspiciously like all we have replaced is the person to blame.

pavski
-12th March 2017, 19:32
I wonder how we will cope when she leaves.

By breaking out the celebration bunting😉......

Ronald Velden
-12th March 2017, 20:37
I think Epee is still having a fairly raw deal, and the decision by the PD (and I am assured it was her decision to overrule those now leading Epee) not to send a JME Team to the Worlds will leave a legacy of further disadvantage following her departure.

Waiting until September is too late.

Epee has put together its own rescue plan supported by the Epee Club, and endorsed by BF. And well done to all involved in that plan. However instead of supporting this plan, which was devised by those trying to reduce further damage to the weapon, it would seem that the PD is intent on one last twist of the knife. Or that is certainly how this has been presented. Let's hope that fencers affected by this decision are still keen to invest their money next season.

There may have been a case to use discretion in the case of selecting a mens cadet team, but having looked at
the individual results of the Mens Junior Epeeists this season I think that you would struggle to justify selection of Mens Team by any measurement including the old rules pre appointment of the PD or WCP.

Only one Men's junior epeeist has managed to produce a L64 or better results at a World Cup this season. Even
by historic selection standards fencers were expected to achieve a minimum of 2 x L64 or 1 x L32 result.

That is I am afraid the difficulty, which precludes the CEO or Board overturning the decision of the PD and selection panel.

pavski
-12th March 2017, 20:55
There may have been a case to use discretion in the case of selecting a mens cadet team, but having looked at
the individual results of the Mens Junior Epeeists this season I think that you would struggle to justify selection of Mens Team by any measurement including the old rules pre appointment of the PD or WCP.

Only one Men's junior epeeist has managed to produce a L64 or better results at a World Cup this season. Even
by historic selection standards fencers were expected to achieve a minimum of 2 x L64 or 1 x L32 result.

That is I am afraid the difficulty, which precludes the CEO or Board overturning the decision of the PD and selection panel.

Which in itself is the result of years of poor talent management. It has resulted in a non selection self fulfilling prophecy.

ED_R
-12th March 2017, 20:57
There may have been a case to use discretion in the case of selecting a mens cadet team, but having looked at
the individual results of the Mens Junior Epeeists this season I think that you would struggle to justify selection of Mens Team by any measurement including the old rules pre appointment of the PD or WCP.

Only one Men's junior epeeist has managed to produce a L64 or better results at a World Cup this season. Even
by historic selection standards fencers were expected to achieve a minimum of 2 x L64 or 1 x L32 result.

That is I am afraid the difficulty, which precludes the CEO or Board overturning the decision of the PD and selection panel.

What you have discovered is that if you hit a weapon (read fencers) often and hard enough, you will erode performance.

Look at when the results went down. I think you will see that it changed when all help was removed from epee. They even removed the coaches from internationals.

It is not the fencers who should be severely punished. It is British Fencing.

now you have to rebuild. There is considerable effort taking place. Back it.

Cyranna's Father
-12th March 2017, 21:42
Only one Men's junior epeeist has managed to produce a L64 or better results at a World Cup this season. Even
by historic selection standards fencers were expected to achieve a minimum of 2 x L64 or 1 x L32 result.


Stat correction:

Luxembourg - 6 JME in the 64
Riga - 1
Espoo - 1
Junior Euros - 3

If you are going to use stats RV you really should check before pressing send.

I can only suggest that if you fail to put fuel in a car eventually it will slow down & stop but I am still hoping that things might become sunnier and if not they are a very talented young group that will work together for 2-3 years. Who knows what may happen when they are run properly and positively with enouragement and help abroad as the other weapons continue to have.

Nick E
-12th March 2017, 22:04
Luxembourg - 6 JME in the 64
Riga - 1
Espoo - 1
Junior Euros - 3
.

Actually:

Luxembourg - 3 x L32 and 3 x L64
Riga - 1 x L32
Espoo - 1 x L64
Euros - 1 x L16, 1 x L32, 1 x L64

One fencer selected for Worlds - 1 x 32 and 3 x 64
Not selected - 1 x 16, 1 x 32
Not selected - 1 x 32, 1 x 64
Not selected - 1 x 32
Not selected - 1 x 32

Consistency of squad performance reduced during the season following removal of travelling coach by BF. Performance improves at the Euros under the new Epee Management structure.

Only one of these fencers is in their final year for the age group. Lots to build on, if the PD could only see it.

Nick E
-12th March 2017, 22:23
Of course in contrast, BF have spotted the talent in JWE selecting three fencers:

By right: 2 x L16 (incl Euros), 1 x L32
Discretion: 1 x L64 (but a great Cadet season)
Discretion: 1 x L64 in last year's Worlds.

You have to love consistency of decision making.

Ronald Velden
-12th March 2017, 23:31
Stat correction:

Luxembourg - 6 JME in the 64
Riga - 1
Espoo - 1
Junior Euros - 3

If you are going to use stats RV you really should check before pressing send.

I can only suggest that if you fail to put fuel in a car eventually it will slow down & stop but I am still hoping that things might become sunnier and if not they are a very talented young group that will work together for 2-3 years. Who knows what may happen when they are run properly and positively with enouragement and help abroad as the other weapons continue to have.

Apologies I did not see the Luxembourg result, but the tournament was quite small with just 77 entries. Reaching last 64 may not have been considered a strong enough result. The European Championships would not
have been considered as they took place after selection date for World Championships.

Apart from this I acknowledged previously that mens epee has not competed on a level playing field with other weapons, but the selection rules were set at start of this season by PD and her decision will not be reversed by CEO or Board.

Next season I am sure all weapons will be treated on a level playing field.

Ronald Velden
-12th March 2017, 23:40
Apologies I did not see the Luxembourg result, but the tournament was quite small with just 77 entries. Reaching last 64 may not have been considered a strong enough result. The European Championships would not
have been considered as they took place after selection date for World Championships.

Apart from this I acknowledged previously that mens epee has not competed on a level playing field with other weapons, but the selection rules were set at start of this season by PD and her decision will not be reversed by CEO or Board.

Next season I am sure all weapons will be treated on a level playing field.

Correction the 77 applied to NIF and not entry in Luxembourg which was very low compared with other World cups.

ED_R
-12th March 2017, 23:55
Apart from this I acknowledged previously that mens epee has not competed on a level playing field with other weapons, but ...

...lets put that right with another generation of fencers.

NOTHING has changed. Same old.

Treat em mean.... ;)

danKew
-13th March 2017, 00:00
the selection rules were set at start of this season by PD and her decision will not be reversed by CEO or Board.

I'd suggest giving an individual that level of control is something that needs reviewing ASAP.

Ronald Velden
-13th March 2017, 00:07
I'd suggest giving an individual that level of control is something that needs reviewing ASAP.

I don't disagree with that statement. I have never been personally a fan of this woman.

Nick E
-13th March 2017, 07:28
.......... The European Championships would not
have been considered as they took place after selection date for World Championships.

Apart from this I acknowledged previously that mens epee has not competed on a level playing field with other weapons, but the selection rules were set at start of this season by PD and her decision will not be reversed by CEO or Board.

Next season I am sure all weapons will be treated on a level playing field.

I still struggle Ronald to understand how a fencers performance at the Europeans cannot be considered relevant to the selection process for the Worlds, as this is the peak time for the fencer to perform. Unfortunately we have a selection process, set as you say by our 'performance expert', that allows a good result at the previous seasons Europeans and Worlds to drive the whole of the next year's selections, without the need to deliver great results in that specific year. Which is exactly the argument being used for not sending JME to the worlds because their results this season aren't 'good enough'.

In JME we effectively lost our 1997 fencers because of the constant change of selection rules. And now we might lose our 1998 fencers who are seeing a different approach playing out compared to others in the sport. Our only saving grace has been the enthusiastic way folk have stepped in to rescue Epee from perceived BF neglect and of course the imminent departure of the PD - who we can see either doesn't understand or doesn't like Epee.

Still time to sort this year BF .......

Ronald Velden
-13th March 2017, 10:45
I still struggle Ronald to understand how a fencers performance at the Europeans cannot be considered relevant to the selection process for the Worlds, as this is the peak time for the fencer to perform. Unfortunately we have a selection process, set as you say by our 'performance expert', that allows a good result at the previous seasons Europeans and Worlds to drive the whole of the next year's selections, without the need to deliver great results in that specific year. Which is exactly the argument being used for not sending JME to the worlds because their results this season aren't 'good enough'.

In JME we effectively lost our 1997 fencers because of the constant change of selection rules. And now we might lose our 1998 fencers who are seeing a different approach playing out compared to others in the sport. Our only saving grace has been the enthusiastic way folk have stepped in to rescue Epee from perceived BF neglect and of course the imminent departure of the PD - who we can see either doesn't understand or doesn't like Epee.

Still time to sort this year BF .......


Selection for World Junior Championships have ALWAYS been made after completion of nominated tournaments
programme and BEFORE European Championships.

This is not something new. It existed when my daughter competed for Britain in the 1990s.

hokers
-13th March 2017, 11:07
Actually:
One fencer selected for Worlds - 1 x 32 and 3 x 64
Not selected - 1 x 16, 1 x 32
Not selected - 1 x 32, 1 x 64
Not selected - 1 x 32
Not selected - 1 x 32



Of course in contrast, BF have spotted the talent in JWE selecting three fencers:

By right: 2 x L16 (incl Euros), 1 x L32
Discretion: 1 x L64 (but a great Cadet season)
Discretion: 1 x L64 in last year's Worlds.

You have to love consistency of decision making.

THIS is exactly why I bang on about discretionary selection being a bad thing. Without the transparency, so there's no doubt why some were selected over others, people get so angry at the perceived unfairness that they quit the sport.

Even if the decisions are not that unreasonable (e.g. if all those L32s were from a small entry competition) the perception is such that it seems like some fencers are being treated unfairly

I have less objection to using discretion to select the 3rd/4th places on a team, or to compensate for injury/exams preventing entry, or low entry or walkover victory, this is where it is sometimes needed.
But the idea that you set the bar really high and then choose anyone you like that doesn't make it, with no right to appeal is a real problem that the new order will have to address.

I said it when this selection policy was released in July, this is horrible. http://www.fencingforum.com/forum/showthread.php?20951-GB-Junior-Selections&p=313645#post313645

Ronald Velden
-13th March 2017, 11:29
THIS is exactly why I bang on about discretionary selection being a bad thing. Without the transparency, so there's no doubt why some were selected over others, people get so angry at the perceived unfairness that they quit the sport.

Even if the decisions are not that unreasonable (e.g. if all those L32s were from a small entry competition) the perception is such that it seems like some fencers are being treated unfairly

I have less objection to using discretion to select the 3rd/4th places on a team, or to compensate for injury/exams preventing entry, or low entry or walkover victory, this is where it is sometimes needed.
But the idea that you set the bar really high and then choose anyone you like that doesn't make it, with no right to appeal is a real problem that the new order will have to address.

I said it when this selection policy was released in July, this is horrible. http://www.fencingforum.com/forum/showthread.php?20951-GB-Junior-Selections&p=313645#post313645

The original selection policy was much fairer than what is in place now.

There was of course an element of discretion.

The original selections from memory were that the first 2 in rankings were automatically selected if they achieved the qualification standard. When my daughter competed Juniors [U20] needed minimum of 2 x L64 or
1 x L32.

The third place for individuals and team was at discretion of the selectors provided that third and fourth places
in rankings both qualified and their results were within a percentile difference. For the record only 3 fencers
were selected for Worlds in both individual and team events, although a reserve usually from cadets would be
nominated as a reserve.

I think that the discretion was only ever applied if their was an outstanding cadet or first or second year junior
preferred to third year junior or someone had missed competitions due to injury or illness.

Foilling Around
-13th March 2017, 13:06
Discretionary selection does not mean not trying! If Ron can swap daughter stories then so can I!

Belfast Worlds, my daughter did not meet the qualifying criteria and was not selected. She was determined not to appeal as she had been set a target and missed it. She only agreed because otherwise her two friends who had qualified would not get to fence in the team event. As it turned out, she had the highest finishing place in the individuals.

It made her even more determined to qualify by right for Azerbaijan the following year so she didn't feel like a fraud.

Ronald Velden
-13th March 2017, 16:40
Discretionary selection does not mean not trying! If Ron can swap daughter stories then so can I!

Belfast Worlds, my daughter did not meet the qualifying criteria and was not selected. She was determined not to appeal as she had been set a target and missed it. She only agreed because otherwise her two friends who had qualified would not get to fence in the team event. As it turned out, she had the highest finishing place in the individuals.

It made her even more determined to qualify by right for Azerbaijan the following year so she didn't feel like a fraud.

I don't understand what you are suggesting.

No fencer was ever selected for World Championships if they failed to achieve minimum qualification standard.
Finishing in top 3 of British Rankings was not qualification for selection.

The only circumstances where discretion might have applied were those which I suggested in my last post i.e.
where Selectors chose a fencer ranked fourth ahead of one third for stated reasons and perhaps in exceptional circumstances where a top fencer missed part of a season through injury or ill health.

The main point is that there were far more fencers qualifying in all six weapons than is the case today. The
system devised by PD and backed by so called no compromise by UK Sport has been disastrous for sport.

I do not recall anytime in the last 20 years that we could see a situation where so few Juniors have "qualified"
for this year's World Championships. When you look at current senior rankings it seems likely that only Richard Kruse and maybe James Davies will qualify for World Senior Championships this summer without application of discretion.

Foilling Around
-13th March 2017, 16:56
Sorry Ron, slight confusion.

The comment was aimed at the poster earlier on who said that allowing a person who did not reach a qualifying criteria to attend a championships would mean that people would not try so hard and just be content to be "the best in Britian" even in that was poor by world standards.

Secondly, by mentioning Belfast and Azerbaijan, I though I was clear that I was referring to Junior Worlds, but obviously not as you thought I meant Senior Worlds

Thirdly, you are obviously and rightly proud of your daughter's time fencing, so I was merely 'asserting my right' to also use my daughter as an example!

Summary - I was not getting at you at all on this occasion. :)

Ronald Velden
-13th March 2017, 17:07
Sorry Ron, slight confusion.

The comment was aimed at the poster earlier on who said that allowing a person who did not reach a qualifying criteria to attend a championships would mean that people would not try so hard and just be content to be "the best in Britian" even in that was poor by world standards.

Secondly, by mentioning Belfast and Azerbaijan, I though I was clear that I was referring to Junior Worlds, but obviously not as you thought I meant Senior Worlds

Thirdly, you are obviously and rightly proud of your daughter's time fencing, so I was merely 'asserting my right' to also use my daughter as an example!

Summary - I was not getting at you at all on this occasion. :)

Paul I did not take the point personally, but was actually concurring with what you have just posted.

It is shocking that only 7 juniors have qualified for this year's World Junior Championships and the results in
last three years if you exclude Mens Foil Team's unexpected bronze last year were pretty poor.

As I wrote it would seem that only Richard Kruse is likely to achieve the qualification standard in World Championships unless as most expect James manages a last 8 result in more than one of the remaining World Cups or Grand Prix.

That should be sending out a clear message that the International Programme has been poorly run over past
6 years.

hokers
-13th March 2017, 17:19
When you look at current senior rankings it seems likely that only Richard Kruse and maybe James Davies will qualify for World Senior Championships this summer without application of discretion.

For Euros:
RK qualified
JH needs L32 in Seoul
JD needs L8 in Long Beach
Aliya not entered Yangzhou, would need L16 from Seoul
MFT are qualified with WR 9th with no comps remaining.
MST have not qualified but might get a discretionary place (as they did last year).

For worlds:
MFT need L8 at Euros (depends on who is selected for the team)
If not, RK needs only 1xL64 from Long Beach/St Petersburg/Shanghai

MST need L8 at Euros would match their best ever result (Euros 2016)
Assume he's not selected for team, JH would need 25 points from the next 3 comps (2xL64, 1xL32) to qualify.

munkey
-14th March 2017, 00:55
Georgina Usher addresses a lot of the issues raised in this thread in the interview I did with her for the latest episode of the fencing podcast (http://www.thefencingpodcast.com/podcast/2017/3/13/episode-8-death-to-3m-sabre-we-also-chat-to-georgina-usher ). It's hardly Frost/Nixon but it might help you get a better idea of where we've been with the WCP, how we ended up where we are now, the good bits we can take from WCP and the way ahead. You may have to put up with Gav and I having a bit of chat but if that's too abhorrent for you, the interview starts around the 46 minute mark. We're on iTunes too if that's more your thing https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/fencing-podcast-the-fencing-podcast/id1151371976?mt=2#episodeGuid=57b574e6440243b634ec eea4%3A57b57fe129687f9e19adb027%3A58c67d51414fb5f3 a775d455

Pete Eames
-16th March 2017, 17:05
Many thanks to the people involved in making this decison. http://www.britishfencing.com/news/latest-news/?n=1704

Fleetfoot
-16th March 2017, 19:18
Many thanks to the people involved in making this decison. http://www.britishfencing.com/news/latest-news/?n=1704

That's a good decision.

Not quite a Vet
-17th March 2017, 18:39
The decision was wise and correct just like a Tory about turn.
Hopefully we will see BF delivering equality in their decisions across the weapons and sexes in the future, a logical selection process which will encourage participation, over all age groups.

I was baffled and amused to see ME being the only weapon ignored (now corrected) and not considered worthy of any discretionary positions for a Team in this age group. Then to see in the U23 Euros the ME is the only discretionary Team selected at all. There just doesn't seem to be any consistency.

As I said hopefully this is the start of a new direction from BF.

max
-19th March 2017, 17:17
Now that we've got the decision it would be nice to help Matt Cooper on his way:

Crowd funding for Plovdiv. (https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/matt-cooper?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Yimbyprojectpage&utm_content=matt-cooper&utm_campaign=projectpage-share-owner&utm_term=djnkZvdYM)

Nick E
-20th March 2017, 07:39
Now that we've got the decision it would be nice to help Matt Cooper on his way:

Crowd funding for Plovdiv. (https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/matt-cooper?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Yimbyprojectpage&utm_content=matt-cooper&utm_campaign=projectpage-share-owner&utm_term=djnkZvdYM)

Thanks for highlighting this Max. It would certainly be great if we give a hand to our top ranked JME fencer this season, particularly as his last 16 in the Euros must have swayed the decision about sending both him, and a team, to the Worlds.