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GRAY MOUSER
-13th September 2004, 18:56
Whilst I know it is difficult to arrange an event could the organisers please consider the impact of the competition being the same day as the Great North Run!!! I have had enormous trouble getting accomodation Friday night and have got to drive home Saturday night there is no room at any Inn!!!!! The drive home for me is nearly 300 miles.

Also whilst I appreciate there is a problem coercing people into refereeing, I feel that threatening parents with £20 charges will put clubs/kids off attending especially when the venue is so far away. When our club hosts a competition we normally rope several of our adult fencers with refereeing experience to help out. Do other organisers not adopt this approach?

Tubby
-13th September 2004, 20:02
.... the fine also assumes that parents from the same club coordinate their entries. It will be interesting to see who they would levy the fine against as I only know of 3 kids from my club going, but if a fourth turns up what then? Does the fourth parent pay? Who would be deemed to be 4th? Do all the parents pay?

Of course, not that I would ever suggest such a thing, but if you put U/A down as the club then ...........

Tubby
-13th September 2004, 20:05
Originally posted by GRAY MOUSER
When our club hosts a competition we normally rope several of our adult fencers with refereeing experience to help out. Do other organisers not adopt this approach? I expect that they do but if some of them are taking part in the great North Run...........

Foilling Around
-13th September 2004, 21:40
It cannot possibly be enforcable to charge a club for not sending referees. Fencers enter as individuals and not as representatives of their clubs.

The only way this could work is for a fundamental change in competitions where entry must be through the club and approved by the club executive.

This of course is the type of thing which is done at the Winton, as a team event, but is unworkable for individuals.

As the organiser of an LPJS foil myself I can appreciate the frustation of organisers. The worst part of the "job" (oh that I got paid for it) is the cagouling, persuading and exerting moral blackmail on local fencers to get them to come along and help.

You then get a phone call from a coach 2 days before the event. "I'm sending a minibus of 15 fencers with one of the parents because I cant make it this weekend" I enquiry hopefully "Can any of them referee?" The inevitable reply "No, sorry, there all beginners."

There is a moral obligation to send referees if you are arranging a club outing to a competition, but it would not work as a necessary commitment.

Tubby
-13th September 2004, 22:41
I didn't hang round to the end at Leicester, how did your lass get on?

27ab1c
-14th September 2004, 18:23
My daughter fenced Durham last year, but this year we're giving it a miss mainly because of the Great North Run.

We were 7 hours on the road, getting there very late. We got accommodation (booked in advance) but we didn't get a very good night's sleep, which may have affected her performance. By the time we got home, it certainly knocked us all out for the next couple of days.

GRAY MOUSER
-16th September 2004, 19:18
She finished 14th in the end, but in a possative frame of mind ready for Durham.

Baldric
-19th September 2004, 16:08
I have just come back from a Premier Series event where they had a shortage of refs.

Their answer was to use some of the more experienced U14s to ref the U9 and u11s

A splendid job they did too.

I would much rather my daughter was reffed by Peter Barwell or Liz Ng than some of the adult refs she has had!

Baldric
-19th September 2004, 16:10
Originally posted by 27ab1c

We were 7 hours on the road, getting there very late.

Arrgghhh. Going there next week (from Portsmouth).

Not looking forward to that one.......back for the county u14 next day.......

27ab1c
-21st September 2004, 19:16
Good luck to you then!
There's a closed Welsh intermediate competition at the weekend, so young 'un doesn't feel she's missing out. Perhaps she'll change her mind when a few overtake her in the rankings.

Coupe du Nord
-22nd September 2004, 19:24
Yup, sure is a long way to Durham, funny enough it's a long way south for us as well.
Anyway the entry is over the hundred mark.

27ab1c
-23rd September 2004, 08:34
not complaining about the distance, just the clash with the Great North Run, which last year created something like a 40-mile traffic jam on the Friday night. 100 fencers and 100,000 runners all getting nowhere but burning fossil fuel on the M1.

Tubby
-23rd September 2004, 12:10
...but that was due to the road works, two lanes to one, on a Friday evening, which is a nortoriously difficult time to travel up the A1.

vikkia
-23rd September 2004, 17:53
As the Great North Run isn't till Sunday I do not see what all the fuss is about! Last year there seemed to be no problem on the Sat morning getting to Durham. i admit I only came from harrogate
and don't need accomodation but most people for the GNR surely drive up Sat after we have checked in!

GRAY MOUSER
-23rd September 2004, 19:49
As 27ab1c said 100 fencers and 100,000 runners and probably supporters going nowhere burning fossil fuel.

So lets see, get up @ 3.00 am Saturday, wake kids and get them dressed, load car drive approx 300 miles ( 5. 1/2 hours), including toilet stops + breakfast and arrive in time for check in.
Watch kids fence all day, leave at the end, then repeat the journey home arriving home probably 10-11pm unload car get kids to bed. AAHHHH sleep.

Or if it wasn't for the GNR. Drive up Friday afternoon after kids finish school, stay in a hotel, wake up, have leisurely breakfast,
load car, arrive in time for check in. watch kids fence, look around to see what Durham has to offer us southerners, find somewhere to eat go back to hotel ssslleeeeeeeeeeppppp. Arise refreshed for more sightseeing and trip back home.

I' know many of the runners of the GNR travel to Durham on Saturday so they can see Durham at its finest check out the route and rest before the run. Testimony to this that you can't get a hotel room for love nor money, as they have all been fully booked since Feb/March. So no chance. I tried booking again a couple of weeks ago and couldn't get within 50 miles of Durham on the saturday night!!!

That is what all the fuss is about.

vikkia
-23rd September 2004, 20:46
I know how you feel I too have been there.My point was though that the majority will be going on Sat and no doubt will be on the road AFTER we have checked in( at least i hope so). Sunday will be the real bad day. Anyway if you can get up on the friday night there are some rooms at the Travel Lodge at Scotch corner A1 Northbound for the friday night and on the A1 south bound on the Sat night. Alternativley you are welcome to stay with us on the Sat night we are about an hour and half away. I have done it in less! At least that saves on the long journey home.
The rooms at the Travel Lodge were there about 20 mins ago by the way. Good luck!!

GRAY MOUSER
-23rd September 2004, 21:14
Many thanks for the offer of a bed but we will probably head home and book in at a travel inn Half way home (one of the kids is getting over over a cold and I wouldn't want to infect your household with it!!!). We did manage to book the Friday night a couple of weeks ago but as I said had no luck for Saturday. See you at the competition (if I can work out who you are!!)

Tubby
-23rd September 2004, 21:39
and there I was with my PM to you last week with details of a room at the holiday inn in Middlesborough (which you may or may not have opened........)

if you wanted to do some sight seeing o/n in York, loads to see there.

Tubby
-26th September 2004, 10:01
:) Many thanks to the organisers of for a very well run event. The Durham Uni venue is very good enhanced I'm sure by the having to mingle with the hockey players ;)

Apologies to DT for the delay in the boys U11 first poule, I had 2 body wire changes and at least 8 weapon changes plus we moved onto another piste when the box stopped registering only to find that someone had kicked the ground wire out of the spool. Not to mention all the off targets :(

In the men's U15 DE I caused more confusion by moving onto another piste, when we had problems with the spool, only for another set of DEs to turn up to use that piste - sods law, there were at least 5 other pistes and DT and I picked the same one.

I had a very interesting discussion with a very good young U15 fencer about whether his risposte should score. This followed a number of "attack off target therefore risposte not in time" calls during the bout. And one attack through a circular sixte riposte to shoulder being given to the attack. After another attack off target risposte not in time the fencer politely asked why his riposte was not counting to which I said that he wasn't parrying properly to which he answered "I parried, how else could he hit me off target on my back arm". It has always been my interpretation that the parry had to clear the point from the target as well as the rest of the body. Had I thought the other fencer was off target with remise/continuation/renewal I would have given riposte. The fencer went on to win the bout, however if I was wrong in my interpretation of the rule on parry I will apologise to the young man for a fight harder than it should have been.

PM1
-26th September 2004, 17:07
yes, yes, enough about you - how did the KIDS do??:rolleyes:

Tubby
-26th September 2004, 17:58
:grin: oh them, I had to sign 2 forms for custody of two shields. :cup: :party: Daughter had a corking final 10-9 v Alex, there didn't deserve to be a loser, she came from 4-1 down. At the end it was step lunge, where you are, step lunge, where you are ditto ditto ditto until attack counter attack left. Both girls were near collaspe and daughter staggered off the piste saying she was going to be sick and had to lie down on the two seater sofa for literally 5 minutes before she could sit up again. She couldn't even drink until much later.

Her semi against Sophie was also a very good bout and Sophie was very close to winning it with daughter coming from 3-6 down to win.

The boy did what the boy does (but only when Scott isn't there to dish out some major whup a*$£ :whip: ).

Did you find out about the English Cadet age limit?

Foilling Around
-26th September 2004, 19:30
I think the age limit on the English Youth Champs is because it qualifies four fencers for the Youth Quad. On the oof chance that there are only 4 entries for the under 16 then we cannot really have 12 year olds actually on the team.

The British Cadets however does not select a team, it simply gains points for the Cadets Rankings. (and is infact compulsory if you want to be in the running for the World Cadets team.)

Unfortunately that means your daughter is too young for an Under 16 event, but can enter and Under 17 one. Isn't the world strange!

I'm just getting my head round all of these things as daughter at my end is now mixing it in these circles.

Unfortunately it is not just a case of how well you can fence, but how well you work the system that decides how you succeed.

Coupe du Nord
-26th September 2004, 20:10
Actual dates are born in 1989, 1990, 1991. to fence in the England Under 16 Championships.

Baldric
-26th September 2004, 20:26
[i]then we cannot really have 12 year olds actually on the team.
[/B]

Just out of interest, why not?

If 4 or 40 kids entered, and a 12 yr old finished 3rd, why should he/she not be on the team?

I agree it's unlikely to happen, but why should it be (made to be) out of the question?

Rdb811
-26th September 2004, 20:28
I've just spent a while on the phone advising the mother of one of our cadets just on what events there are locally and thats just for someone fencing BYC / LPJS.

Tubby
-26th September 2004, 21:10
Originally posted by Coupe du Nord
Actual dates are born in 1989, 1990, 1991. to fence in the England Under 16 Championships. Were you at Durham on Saturday? If so were you wearing a Coup du Nord jacket?

PM1
-27th September 2004, 08:18
Originally posted by Tubby
Were you at Durham on Saturday? If so were you wearing a Coup du Nord jacket?

He is a VERY tall man.....amd he will have been at Durham, and he organises the Coup de Nord....

and yes, I did talk to Ismay about this (almost as soon as I saw her on Satdi), and the rules (as they stand, at least for England) are 3 years below the age group concerned, ie for <16, the competitors need to be 13 on 1.1. of the season concerned. If your child won't be that age, don't enter them, and then it's no never mind if a 12 year old comes 3rd on 30th Nov, unless s/he will be 13 on 1.1.05. I seem to remember that only the first 2 are bankers for the England team anyway, but could be wrong.

No ranking points from these champs in any event, at all.

There is/has been discussion between the home countries about re jigging age groups, but it stays <16, <18 for this season, the quad being held in N Ireland, March time, I think.

The BRITISH CADET champs carry ranking points, and are indeed compulsory for male epeeists (if not all the other weapons, I don't know) if the fencer wants to be considered for representational honours overseas. I believe the age qual;ification is different, but can't help there - sorry.:confused:

PS well done your sprogs, too!!:party:

Coupe du Nord
-27th September 2004, 08:48
I am indeed a very tall man, and I presented you Son and Daughter with thier medals and shields, I also stood and talked to you when your daughter was fencing Alex. For my pains I do the administration for the 9 nation coupe du nord sabre, I also run/organise the three satellite B grades in Newcastle, as well as being invoved with the Durham LPJS. If I remember right I took early retirement for peace and quiet, where did I go wrong?

Tubby
-27th September 2004, 11:23
Originally posted by PM1
...the rules (as they stand, at least for England) are 3 years below the age group concerned, ie for <16, the competitors need to be 13 on 1.1. of the season concerned....

PS well done your sprogs, too!!:party: M, thank you for resolving that. At least now I don't have the tyranny of having another comp in the diary to stretch the Tubby household budget any further. BFA Cadet is too much of a leap for sprog 1; and she doesn't want to have a go having had a look at the "names" already entered.

PM1
-27th September 2004, 11:30
You are most welcome.

We are currently going thru the splendid wallet emptying time of cadet-but-going-to-be-junior-in-a-minute-so-need-to-do-all-the-nominated-events-for-each-age-group dance.

And just found out this morning that some b£$%£"!d has tried to rob the current account of £888 for computer kit....bank rang (knew there was a reason for working from home this am), concerned at the request for funds and for the kit to go to another name in another place. On me other half's alleged request. No chance. But what a time of the month to do this - 27th and broke - and to give a name AND adress that can be checked out and hopefully have its collar felt :mad: :mad:

Rant over....it's only money :upset:

Tubby
-27th September 2004, 11:39
Originally posted by Coupe du Nord
I am indeed a very tall man, and I presented you Son and Daughter with thier medals and shields, I also stood and talked to you when your daughter was fencing Alex. For my pains I do the administration for the 9 nation coupe du nord sabre, I also run/organise the three satellite B grades in Newcastle, as well as being invoved with the Durham LPJS. If I remember right I took early retirement for peace and quiet, where did I go wrong? Strangely enough we have several photographs of you ;)

For the record, B was not giving me tips on what sprog 1 should do against Alex in the final :grin: but on how to pronounce her name in Gaelic :) though she will have it beaten into her (again) which side line of the piste she should be hugging.

It is good to put a monika to a name/face.

Winwaloe
-28th September 2004, 12:17
I like Durham but it is a long drive. So, best way to avoid it is get kiddy(s) to do so well in the nearer comps that you don't have to go there! - Appreciate it may not be quite in the spirit of things but I really wonder if it is worth knackering junior just to get in a spot of distance fencing. Anyone know results of u13 boys?/u15 girls?

Baldric
-28th September 2004, 18:13
U13 boys was won by Tom Hendrie (Chichester), second was Tom Allen (Winchester Escrime)

Sorry, don't know about the U15 girls.

Winwaloe
-29th September 2004, 16:20
Have now decided that not going to Scotland and Durham have disadvantaged youngster. Re-think needed for next year!

Baldric
-29th September 2004, 19:10
Assuming that you are southern based, I would recommend Edinburgh before Durham.

Flying to and from Edinburgh (£70 a ticket) took less than half the time of driving to and from Durham. We couldn't find a cheap flight to Newcastle (£300 per seat).

With petrol, food on way there and back, plus wear & tear on the car, I reckon that the cost was about the same for each.

Both venues were nice and the organisers were on the ball, but the standard of reffing was much higher in Scotland. Frankly, the standard of reffing at Durham was poor - I very nearly lodged a complaint about 2 refs, (would have been my first in 60 odd tournaments, and they weren't even reffing my kid!). The only reason I didn't was cos I am aware how hard it is to get refs, and cos Mr R looked so harrassed that I did not want to add to his burden!

However, refs ought to be able to keep score accurately, realise when a fencer has both feet at least a metre off the side of the piste, and prevent a parent from shouting at his childs opponent. This is basic stuff!

Also - be warned - at Durham, the first round of poules does not count toward DE seeding - really upset my daughter who had 5/5 in the first round and 4/5 in the second, ended up seeded 6th when under normal LPJS rules she would have been 1st or 2nd!

Edinburgh, on the other hand, was the best run, best reffed, best organised LPJS that I have attended, with the possible exception of the Sherwood Foil.

This sounds like a complete attack on Durham - its not. Its not their fault that the airlines charge the earth, or that I live 360 miles away. Mr R did sterling work on the day, as did the rest of the team. However, after each tournament, you weigh up the pros and cons, and next year, Durham will probably be on my list of "not this time" competitions.

Sorry Durham!

Tubby
-29th September 2004, 22:48
A parent did approach me and asked that I watch a ref as he was concerned that the ref didn't appear to be doing very well. As I was a volunteer ref on the day all I felt I could do was to tell the dad to go to DT and I abdicated responsibility :confused: (which I probably never had) maybe I should have taken a bit more notice :eek: ....... so that was one of the refs accounted for ...now who else could Baldric be referring to........:(

StabInTheDark
-30th September 2004, 14:42
Distance

OK it is a long way but LPJS is a national series, kids in the North and Scotland have an equal opportunity: We regularly travel 200 miles+ to competitions in the south and plan ahead to do something else with the weekend on the non – fencing day e.g. Historic Ships (Portsmouth) Chessington World of Adventures (Eton)…There were 104 fencers on the day at Durham. Thanks to everyone who made the effort.

Referees

I do not believe the organisers would have prevented a child from fencing, the issue had to come to a head because one local coach provided 13 fencers the previous year but refused to do any refereeing at all. I have been in the position of travelling 200+ miles to Cambridge to be threatened with non participation if I could not supply a referee. Solutions are to get Parents and older fencers to assist when they are not other wise engaged. Yes, all competitions have poor referees (Olympics?) tell the organisers don’t whinge afterwards, Messrs Jakab and Kiss refereed most of the finals at Durham.. I had one complaint…. but it was a coach at my daughter’s club thinking I was being too harsh on disallowing one of her friends’ dubious hits. At least my bad decisions were fairly distributed. Don’t complain if you are not prepared to do it yourself for at least one round of poules for a lower age group.

Yes, fencers do register as individuals but also as members of Clubs and the clubs do have some responsibility to prepare and support them. I agree this is unenforceable, it is a shame that every competition struggles to an extent

Great North Run/Accommodation

Fair point but the University Sports Hall has to be booked out of Term time. This also means some of the Colleges had accommodation if you had asked far enough in advance. Part of the problem is booking too late and not knowing the geography – actually plenty of good value accommodation less than an hour to the south if people knew where to look. Plan Ahead. – the competition date was published and known from February.

I understand next year will hopefully not clash: watch this space and book early: on the travelodge/inn/premierlodge type of accommodation, you can have bookings online, cancellable at no penalty up to the day of travel.

Travel.

Trains??? Durham station 2 miles away, East Coast Main Line 3 hrs to London KX

Poules

Using one or both rounds isn’t specified in the series rules I think, opinions seem divided according to how well or badly the sprog has done in the first round: at least there are 2 round unlike Premier series where of the the best fencers meet before the final round because of pot luck in the poules.

Results

I understand these have now gone in to be posted. Some delays still in Leon Paul…..?



see you all at Cambridge

Tubby
-30th September 2004, 19:03
Originally posted by Baldric
Assuming that you are southern based, I would recommend Edinburgh before Durham.......

......Edinburgh, on the other hand, was the best run, best reffed, best organised LPJS that I have attended, with the possible exception of the Sherwood Foil.
Given the overall quality of the Durham event its popularity has increased and I understand splitting it over two days will be a real consideration for next year. Its one of the few LPJS Foil held in England where a horde of Scottish fencers appear (for obvious reasons) and that alone makes it a must on my kids' calendar (and its only an 65 minutes away) as well as Grangemouth. We'd love to do Portsmouth but that clashes with Grangemouth.

Re issues with reffing and organisation - that happens all over the place - you obviously didn't see the aggro between parents over some calls at Grangemouth which led to a ref being referred to DT and you probably missed the computer crash at Sherwood. Last year at Cambridge there was a ref giving double hits in foil as if it were epee. These things happen, though I would concede that it was a proud moment for my lad to march out to bagpipe music for the medal ceremony and to get his medal on a podium under the Scottish flag and all the fencers observed the courtesy of watching the ceremony. So for that touch of class/cheese Grangemouth is top of my LPJS experience this year. My recommendation to folk in the South is if you can, do both, if its a choice between Portsmouth and Grangemouth weigh the cost vs likelihood of getting points. Durham and Edinburgh are both beautiful and the folk very friendly so you can't go wrong either way.

Baldric
-2nd October 2004, 13:16
Originally posted by Tubby

Re issues with reffing and organisation - that happens all over the place - you obviously didn't see the aggro between parents over some calls at Grangemouth which led to a ref being referred to DT and you probably missed the computer crash at Sherwood.

Hi - No, I didn't miss either....

If the row to which you refer was in the U13 boys semi, I was watching it carefully.

The parents did get worked up, but IMHO the ref was right, and the subsequent observing by the DT confirmed that.

Bu a strange coincidence, the winner of that fight was also involved in a fraught u13 semi at Durham. This one really should have been referred to the DT, as the ref completely lost control of it.

You can't blame a computer crash on the organisers, any more than you can blame the organisers at Eton for the roof leaking. When such things occur, the organisers deserve all the support, sympathy and understanding that fencers and parents can provide.

However, some organisers seem to go the extra mile to make their comps run smoothly and be a great experience for the kids, and after going to many, I still reckon that Edinburgh (at least this year) was probably the best. The podium/music thing is just the icing on the cake!

{added later}

Perhaps all parents, when entering competitions, should be required to pass a test on "right of way in foil". If they don't pass, they should sign an undertaking not to pass comment on the referees decisions:tongue:

Tubby
-2nd October 2004, 14:44
Originally posted by Baldric
Hi - No, I didn't miss either....

If the row to which you refer was in the U13 boys semi, I was watching it carefully.
I missed that one! And the U13 at Durham. One of the drawbacks of reffing is not being able to keep up with whats going on, at least I was able to watch some of my kids DEs.

I take your point on what is outside an organiser's control. At Sherwood it was the communication of the problem that took some time to filter out. The high winds at Eton causing the leak was a big blow :tongue: . Having to re-fence the 2nd round of poules in the British U10 in Bristol was less than ideal.

There are, as you say, little touches that make the experience that much more bearable. Some comps give the kids toys (Eton), T-shirts (Ashton 2 years ago), trophies (Warrick, Durham), prize draws (Bude), some have podiums (Grangemouth, Warrick), one separates fencers from spectators (Sherwood). But whatever it is they all give their time to put the show on. And I also agree that Grangemouth this year has the edge. I'm interested to know if you are able to compare the Fettes comp last year with Grangemouth.

From a volunteer ref's perspective its a thankless task (other than the thanks from the organisers and the bottles of cheer that are lying in the rack). If I'm at the limit of my competence and or don't dish cards out for coming to the piste with a weapon that doesn't work or penalise kids that can't step backwards in a straight line and end up with one foot of the piste or want to see a point moved out of line before giving riposte and am prepared to give a hit for covering, its going to be the same for both fencers. Do we feel pressure? You better believe it. When you know that there is some former international fencer now coach watching his fencer from one side of the piste and the other fencer's former international fencer turned coach watching from the other side plus god alone knows who else is stood behind you when you're reffing (maybe even DT) do you feel pressure? Too right you do. We're not deaf, we can hear the cat calls and gasps and the cheering over two lights on hits, we know that the coach asking you to repeat the phrasing then questioning you whether you saw this or that is an experienced international. All you can do is call it like you see it. If you can't see it to call it at least you're going to be equally blind. And maybe we stink the place up. I've heard of volunteer refs that cave under the pressure. Not that its justified but foilist have always had to fence to the ref, some give attack into prep others call it counter attack. Some venues are lucky to be able to field a team of very good fencers as refs and even some international refs (Eton). Others have a date clash with Opens and are left with less experienced club fencers. Its not easy to step up to the plate and bat knowing that if you make an honest mistake you may end up vilified (by the likes of me especially if it meant the end of the tournament for my kiddie - hey I human) or that someone would be in DT requesting another ref whenever your name is announced as ref.

Sure, we all travel a long way to get to comps and the kids deserve to get a fair crack. If the ref is being fair but operating outside of his competence then its a frustration and you got to tell your kid to fence for one light hits, if however the ref is not being fair then thats a different thing.

Baldric
-2nd October 2004, 16:06
Originally posted by Tubby
If the ref is being fair but operating outside of his competence then its a frustration and you got to tell your kid to fence for one light hits, if however the ref is not being fair then thats a different thing.

I have not come across many instances of "unfair" reffing in the sense of "genuinely biased in favour". One or two, but not many.

More common seems to be the two lighter between an unknown and a well-known fencer that gets given to the well known fencer, presumably on the principle that they are more likely to be doing it right!

I have seen some refs who are very tough on their own pupils when reffing them - demanding higher standards from their own than from other fencers.

I was contemplating becoming a ref recently, and decided against it on three grounds:

1) I see too many refs frustrated, (like you) cos they miss seeing their own kid fence.

2) My own temper is a fragile thing, and I am not convinced that I could avoid carding/punching/slapping some of the over competitive mums and dads when they get mouthy

3) Having watched a few very fast bouts, and trying to track and understand the refs calls, I don't think I am up to it! Its not a lack of understanding of the rules, I just can't follow the actions well enough.

I take my hat off to all of you who can and do!

Foilling Around
-2nd October 2004, 23:00
Wow Tubby, I bet you feel better for getting that out of your system!!!!

One problem at the last Sherwood was a parent turning up with 2 fencers who had never even let us know he was coming. 'fraid I'm not hard enough to send him away. This was not communicated properly to the computer room and so caused all kinds of problems.

Being an organiser when things go wrong means that you run round like a mad thing and time flies. For the fencers and parents time slows down and it is intensely bringing and frustrating. Sometimes I know that I have failed to communicate as well as I would have liked.

I take my hat off to less experienced fencers who referee. I am fairly experienced and with a fairly big head and I feel intimidated at times. Too hang my dirty washing out - I am sure that at times I intimidate referees when I am supporting my fencers at other events. It is not deliberate, but at the end of some fights I have looked back and not felt overly proud of my method of support.

One way that we organisers can help is to make sure that all referees know which rules we are working to. I have been present when a 6 minute fight was run as 2 x 3 minutes in error. I have also been present when two under 13 fencers were specifically told that their DE was to 15, only to have the fight stopped when one of them got to 10. Tears and a VERY angry parent followed.

I give all my referees a sheet with the age groups and timings and advice of implementing the rules. I advise leeway, except with regard to hard hitting and the use of violence.

Now I'm rivalling Tubby on the legth of my submission so I'll sign off now and go to bed!!

Tubby
-3rd October 2004, 12:47
Originally posted by Foilling Around
Wow Tubby, I bet you feel better for getting that out of your system!!!! You are correct - there was something of the confessional, but without having to do the stations of the cross afterwards, about it.

As a minor event organiser I know all too well the sinking feeling when the wheels start to wobble then come off made even worse by 130 people looking to you for leadership and a solution. So I've got every sympathy for organisers and the team they assemble. And I hope the lurkers on this thread do not get put off from taking part in putting events on.

One of the best feeling as an organiser, albeit fleeting, is the sense of relief and satisfaction that things are running smoothly and the knowledge that the team you have can handle most eventualities. But best of all is knowing that there are one or two kind and well meaning souls that will put themselves out to help, even if it meant missing their kids fights, if you needed it, and to them I say, as a parent firstly and organiser secondly THANK YOU (and what are you doing on the weekend of 20 Feb and are you willing to ref especially sabre?:grin: :grin: (if you don't ask you don't get....))

Foilling Around
-3rd October 2004, 18:18
Ref sabre, Moi? Only if your prepared to put up with guess work, or at best estimation of the actions!! Although I'm doing the Sabre at the Leicester Open.

I don't know what I'm doing next month never mind in February, but feel free to ask nearer the time.

We have just got a sponsorship deal with a local company and one of our projects is to build up sabre in Sherwood Cadets.

Which event is it for?

Tubby
-3rd October 2004, 18:56
It was a call to Yorkshire lurkers / forum members for refs. We run a 6w youth league in age groups U10 (mixed foil), U12 (foil), U14 (6W), U16 (6W). Last year we held 3 tournaments in the league and had sponsorship from the Yorkshire Post. Had I got my finger out the results would have been in the lastest Sword. This year we are looking for another sponsor and hope to run 4 comps in the league, Harrogate, Hull, Sheffield and Leeds. 6W in a day can be massive on time. We also do man and mistress at arms in the league across all age groups for the 2 Lloyd-Jones trophies.

One of the contingent proposals to go before the committee next weekend is whether to open the league up to contigous regions, i.e. North East, North West, Midlands. The medals that are given out are Yorkshire medals, so its not a given that the comp will be opened. Also it is contingent on whether the league doubles as the Yorkshire Youth Championships - qualifier for BYC. If the vote is that the league is also the BYC qualifier then it can only be Yorkshire Region residents only.

As you know the more people that take part in the qualifier the more places at the BYC you get, the league format held in the different cities (ok Harrogate is not a city) will result in more entrants. Anyway thats still to be debated.

Last February the first comp was held the day after Sherwood so you can imagine the weekend we had plenty of :sleep: afterwards.

pinkelephant
-4th October 2004, 12:40
Originally posted by Foilling Around
Wow Tubby, I bet you feel better for getting that out of your system!!!!


One way that we organisers can help is to make sure that all referees know which rules we are working to. I have been present when a 6 minute fight was run as 2 x 3 minutes in error. I have also been present when two under 13 fencers were specifically told that their DE was to 15, only to have the fight stopped when one of them got to 10. Tears and a VERY angry parent followed.



If you are using engarde, you can set the parameters of the competition for U13 and U11 to 10 hits in DE fights (it's in the "Formula" menu.) The match sheets then print up to 10 hits only so there shouldn't be any confusion. You do have to write 3 lots of 2 minutes on the sheets by hand though.

Rdb811
-4th October 2004, 14:33
Originally posted by pinkelephant
You do have to write 3 lots of 2 minutes on the sheets by hand though.

You can add additional lines of text in the competiton set up. Not that anybody will read them though.

sirius1
-6th October 2004, 22:39
Please help!!!! Did anyone organising Durham - or indeed at Durham - find my daughter's breeches and socks, which I think she lost there! If so, please post reply we can get in touch to try to reclaim them.

Many, many grovelling thanks!!!!!

Coupe du Nord
-7th October 2004, 09:24
We are checking for you.

sirius1
-9th October 2004, 19:05
Thanks so much!! If you find them please let me know - daughter definitely not looking forward to having to pay for new pair with money saved up for new pair of jeans!!!!!;)

Winwaloe
-11th October 2004, 12:04
having the right number of "good" refs is always a problem I think. I do not believe it is fair to say that parents/coach/ other fencers shoudl/can ref. If you do decide to take it on you must feel confident in your ability. I was asked to ref at the BYN last year and refused on the basis I was not good enough. The organiser who asked me insisted i was (very kind of him) but I didn't agree so didn't ref. I don't like refing if I have a number of fencers at a comp and I won't ref if my sons are fencing. This season I have refed at some of the LPJS was described as a "fancy ref" (I was using (most) of the hand signals) and complimented on my refing. Also told that I didn't allow "proper" parries and gave the riposte but told on same match by other parent (who also told me he was a qualified ref) that I was observing the convention (agreed). Saw a ref at a junior comp give a very well known coach a red card. Great fun!! -
Durham and Scotland are a long way if in the South but so is Bude (my fav LPJS this year). Will do Durham and Scotland nxt year as decision not to this year may have cost jnr a ranking position (perhaps, to keep the end result more relative to overall results all fencers should do all comps)
Sherwood and Scotland did not seem to have the leaders in all the age groups take part which is unfortunate for some but fortunate for those that did turn up. Good tactics!
Never seen any deliberate poor refing in a LPJS but quite a lot in another series. As the LPJS series draws to a close many thanks to all organisers and refs from "my" fencers and parents.

Insipiens
-11th October 2004, 12:38
Originally posted by Winwaloe
I was asked to ref at the BYN last year and refused on the basis I was not good enough. The organiser who asked me insisted i was (very kind of him) but I didn't agree so didn't ref.

....

Durham and Scotland are a long way if in the South but so is Bude (my fav LPJS this year). Will do Durham and Scotland nxt year as decision not to this year may have cost jnr a ranking position (perhaps, to keep the end result more relative to overall results all fencers should do all comps)


I suspect reffing at junior (in the non-technical sense) events like the LPJS involves a lot more pressure in earlier rounds than any open.

I was going to suggest the answer on rankings could be for the rankings to be based on "points per competition" but then the winner of the first competition could finish first without competing again.

Foilling Around
-11th October 2004, 22:29
I take issue with the Sherwood comment, we have quite a lot of the eventual series leaders at our event and I hope we will do so again in 2005!!!

Eton is probably the only event where just about all of the top rankers turn up. Some miss each of the others.

As the series expands it will get more complex.

Too be honest the under 15 event is actually an under 14, at least at foil. The top under 15s rarely do the second year in the age group as they have gone on to adult events.

Tubby
-12th October 2004, 10:02
If you want U15 and U17 to turn up get it nominated as a cadet ranking tournament and book another hall to avoid the crush. Its pretty easy to see the pattern in the numbers just look at Warwick and Arnold compared to the other venues on the epee LP circuit.

Cambridge is also another well attended venue for foil well over 100 last year and the biggest U9 field I've seen in two years.

27ab1c
-12th October 2004, 12:40
I've pointed out elsewhere in the forum that LPJS doesn't earn foil cadet ranking points, and, as Foiling Around points out, by around 15, they're heading for the tournaments that do.
Having said that, LPJS competitions (all weapons) from this season earn points for the Welsh Youth table - well done Welsh Fencing.

As for Cambridge, being popular - it's the last chance to earn a prize; rise up the rankings; see most of the friends they've made; etc, until next February.

Coupe du Nord
-13th October 2004, 09:49
Originally posted by sirius1
Please help!!!! Did anyone organising Durham - or indeed at Durham - find my daughter's breeches and socks, which I think she lost there! If so, please post reply we can get in touch to try to reclaim them.

Many, many grovelling thanks!!!!!

Have checked the lost property, no breeches or socks, however, did your daughter use the changing rooms? have asked University to check their lost property store in case they picked them up and forgot to tell us. Failing that they will probably be residing in some elses fencing bag.

sirius1
-13th October 2004, 15:34
Yes, she did use the changing rooms. Thanks so much for all your help with this.

She has been subjected to the Wrath of Mum over it, so hopefully she won't be losing any more kit in the near future!! I'll keep my fingers crossed that the university will find them and I won't make her fork out for a new pair until I'm sure hers have disappeared for ever!!!

Thanks again!

Coupe du Nord
-14th October 2004, 14:12
Clive R and the university staff have searched everywhere and no trace on the breeches or socks.
There goes her pocket money !!!!

sirius1
-14th October 2004, 19:44
Thanks so much for trying to find them - and please send my thanks to everyone else who looked!!

Tubby
-20th October 2004, 11:46
Originally posted by StabInTheDark
see you all at Cambridge D as you've got PM switched off can you please email me (I've lost your contact info following hard disk crash), I would like to discuss something.

Troll
-21st October 2004, 15:30
Durham is a long way away!!!:flame: