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kingkenny
-22nd May 2003, 10:32
:upset: It has come to my attention that someone has broken one of the main forum rules. “Do not use multiple usernames to conceal your identity”. This person is a supplier of fencing equipment and instead of using the Forum as a resource to help fencers he has been using multiple usernames to promote his company. I find this particularly annoying as I have spent a lot of time trying to make this a useful fencing resource.

Gofence and Bydande are all have the same IP address. If you do a user search and check some of Bydande’s posts you will see that many of them are aimed directly at other manufacturers or are extolling the virtues of GoFence products while pretending to be impartial.

Quote posted by Bydande: “OK in the spirit of advising and not advertising - I dont work for any fencing company - I would "advise" ***** to look at the following sites:
Gofence - the cheapest and best value fencing kit in the UK.
and Uhlman the german website for Uhlmann. They do good kit and its reasonably priced if you can buy it in Germany. The English distributor (Blades) has an exclusive agreement with them and as a result hikes the prices in old blighty up by 30-40%. So dont buy it here.” – Bydande has the same IP address as Gofence (the guy he says he is not).

Quote posted by Bydande: “I rang Duellist a couple of weeks when I was doing some research before buyng a new jacket - and the person I spoke to said that their supplier had gone bust (or something) and they hadnt found a replacement yet. As a result they were running short of stock and didnt have all sizes available. In the end I bought my jacket elsewhere instead. And not from LP. I went for something a little more unusual and exotic.” – There may have been an ulterior motive here?!

Quote posted by Bydande: “Mr goFence, who is a member of the same club as me, assured me that their 350N kit is CEN 1. He also told me that he suspected AllStar UK of circulating this rumour. But if you want rumours here is a good one. Has anybody else heard that AllStar UK, AllStar (in Germany), Uhlmann and Blades are being investigated by the European Competition Commissioner for illegal non-competition agreements.” – I won’t tell you what I am thinking now!

All posts from these users should be considered to be GoFence. I will continue to monitor IP addresses and inform you if we suspect any other users of having multiple usernames. May I also take this opportunity to ask you for help, if you do see any posts that you think may have been made with dubious intentions then please don’t be afraid to click the “Report this post to a moderator” button next to the post so we can look into it.

I am not too sure what to do about this? Sorry guys it was quite obvious, but I never really bothered cheeking IP addresses because I tend to trust people and take what they say at face value.
Note to self: Remember the world is a cynical place; don’t trust anyone and the truth is out there!

James
-22nd May 2003, 12:44
i would like to state now
that this is false
i am neither Gofence or Bydande
i will provide any information required to prove this

James

kingkenny
-22nd May 2003, 13:35
I said you have the same IP address as bydande and gofence
213.122.***.*** which is a bt open world address and 81.135.***.*** which is a dial up address.
These are both floating IPs which could mean you both have the same two ISPs (work in the same office etc....)

I hope that you are not the same person and if you are not then I am very sorry but its a bit of a coincidence. PM me if you want.

I know for a fact that bydande and gofence are the same person. As gofence has the email address ale*.*********@bydande.com the * = the name of the person who runs gofence.

Mischa
-22nd May 2003, 14:11
As for bydande & gofence the quotes look incriminating. But James is not necesarily the same person, he could just have the same ISP.

Shocking though!!! :o

kingkenny
-22nd May 2003, 14:26
James could just have the same 2 ISPs some of his post were answerd directly after by bydande which seemed a bit strange. So after cheecking the ip address I thought hmmmmm!

As for bydande and gofence there is no doubt.

Sorry this is a bit of a messy business and I don't like doing it.
If anyone has a sugestion on what should be done let me know. Eg put a signiture on bydane so after each post it says who he represents?

:upset:

Doudou
-22nd May 2003, 15:21
I sense the force is strong with this one.

Come KingKenny, join the darkside...

:starfight

kingkenny
-23rd May 2003, 07:17
I have had contact with James and I do not belive he is the same person as gofence. Sorry for the mistake.

Still no contact from gofence I will keep you posted.

Gav
-23rd May 2003, 08:42
I had my suspicion's about whether GoFence and Bydande were one and the same. In fact, I thought that it waspretty obvious. As such such I balanced comments from either's worth based upon the topic in question - just like anyone else on this board.

kingkenny
-23rd May 2003, 08:48
Gav look at his last post:
http://fencingforum.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=304



My club recently bought some beginner jackets (ambidextrous back-zip), masks and french grip steam foils from our local supplier goFence.com.
We too were on a very tight budget so we had a good look around to get the best prices before we bought. That bit of reseach worked well for us because we paid less than expected and so far all the items we bought have proved OK.

So he found his own jackets proved ok and they were cheep .......
I bet they arrived fast to ......... Well of course they did he allready have them!

Low. :upset: :(

haggis
-23rd May 2003, 10:11
Jeez. The suspense is killing me.

kingkenny
-23rd May 2003, 10:14
I did not know Sorry took so long to write this is really messing up my work. ;)

(i meant bydande to write sorry not me)

haggis
-23rd May 2003, 10:19
Kingkenny

Nah, it's OK. I was waiting for bydande to post on this thread (as he said he would).

Doudou
-23rd May 2003, 10:21
Originally posted by Kingkenny
I did not know Sorry took so long to write
I'm really Sorry Kenny, but I swear she never told me she was your girlfriend :shrug:

Homer
-23rd May 2003, 10:22
aren't we all waiting?
this is going to be the highlight of my day, but then it is Friday

haggis
-23rd May 2003, 10:52
The nervous tension of waiting for bydande's post has overwhelmed me and I will now have to go to the pub for lunch.:drink:

bydande
-23rd May 2003, 10:57
1. I initially registered as bydande because this is the name I use in online forums. All postings that I have made under the name of bydande represent my personal opinion as an active scottish fencer.

2. I later registered again as gofence - purely for the purpose of marketing and defending gofence.com. I wanted to use the name "gofence" for these postings because I wanted it to be clear that these postings were from an interested party. I did this because I noticed at least one posting making detrimental comments about the gofence kit - given that the poster obviously had no knowledge of the TCA kit sold on goFence.com. I wanted the opportunity to give official responses to such attacks. I therefore only created the gofence username with the best of intentions of transpaency - I am sorry if it did not appear that way.

Since the "bust-up" over the issue of no marketing by non-LP people the username gofence has not been used.

3. As bydande I have made more than 90 postings - all of which relate to my personal opinion and which are to the best of my knowledge also factually correct.

Of the three posts you highlight.
- the first is technically true (I dont work for goFence.com - I own the company that owns it) and actually gives information on two suppliers. The two suppliers that I wear and use fencing kit from. I use some TCA kit from goFence and some Uhlmann kit (plastron, pistol grips) which I do buy fom Germany. So the post is true and represents my views as a fencer.
- again the seond posting is true, I did ring Duellist and was told the information relayed in the post. In this post I didnt even mention gofence or TCA so how can this posting be considered misleading. I could have done but didnt because I didnt think it was appropriate to the quesion under discussion.
- And once again the third posting is entirely true. This was a reply to an entirely unbased attack on the quality of the TCA kit, by somebody who I dont think had ever even seen any TCA kit. Also the bit about the European Competition Commissioner is true - I have spoken to the competition commissioners department (in best schoolboy Franglais) and an investigation of fencing suppliers is under way.

- You have recently highlighted another posting regarding purchase of equipment by my club. The club and individuals got no "staff" or "club" discounts from gofence to further tempt them - so these accusations of "insider dealing" are quite false and made by people who have no idea of what really happened in these cases. For example, the club only purchased the kit after researching the cost of kit from other suppliers and taking a vote from its members (a vote at which I abstained due to my obvious conflict of intrerest).

If you look through all of my posting you will notice that I only venture opinions on equipment that I have had direct experience of. For example, my friends and I have had bad experience with some AllStar kit - not marketing spin but plain fact. I also dont like the LP back-zip jacket because I have seen kids at my club using them and they look like trussed chickens - again not marketing spin, I just dont like them and wouldnt buy them for my kids. But I would like to point out that when Mischa asked about LP's 800N kit I said that I couldnt give an opinion because I didnt have any recent experience of it. Thats a pretty honest non-marketing response I hope you will agree.

Where possible I have tried not to make a positive comment about gofence (or TCA) without also making positive comments about at least one other supplier - often Uhlmann because I do like and use Uhlmann equipment (I also like some kit from LP, Prieur, Tournois). But at the end of the day gofence.com sells TCA kit because I tested and really liked most of their kit. I wear TCA kit out of choice but my family and I also wear kit from Uhlmann, Prieur, Tournois and of course LP - a fact which I have also highlighted in many posts. I think that if you look through all of the bydande posts - rather than just extract a small unrepresentaive number (3/93) - you will find that I make positive and negative comments about most suppliers.

Although, I maintain that all of my postings as bydande have been a fair representaion of my personal rather business views I understand that some people may find it diffcult to believe this. So I would be happy to add something like "Proud owner of goFence.com" to my tag line if that would make everybody happier.

kingkenny
-23rd May 2003, 11:31
“I don’t work for any fencing company - I would "advise" ***** to look at the following sites: “
““the first is technically true (I don’t work for goFence.com - I own the company that owns it)” That sounds like an excuse a child would use after being caught lying. You are directly connected and lead people to believe that you were offering independent advice. I believe all of your posts have been deceitful and were to benefit you and not others.
I can’t be bothered having a slating match over the forum. I am still not sure what the best option is. I will be back after some consideration, everyone feel free to post what they feel.
Maybe a poll: 1.Was bydande misleading. or 2. A poor innocent impartial fencer who had no vested interest and just wanted what’s best for fencers?

Homer
-23rd May 2003, 11:35
FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Arturo
-23rd May 2003, 11:59
Don't really think an awful lot needs to be done now, does it?

This argument has pretty much damaged the credibility of gofence, and thrown bydande up in a bad light, be it justified or not. You can never know another persons true intentions, so bydande may well be telling the truth about his pure motives. The simple fact is, we will never know, but people will now treat equipment advice from bydande with suspicion. In fact, I think we will all now treat any advice on equipment from anybody with suspicion, as the forum seems to be becoming a place to plug your company.

Bydande's reason for his two identities could be taken as weak, particularly if, as alleged (can't be bothered searching threads to see if this is true), bydande and gofence are replying to each others posts in the same thread.

Equally, one could take the view that since kingkenny works for Leon Paul, he is trying to discredit the opposition.

I won't say which view I take, but my point is that the two parties involved in this situation BOTH have vested interests in equipment manufacturing, and this is getting in the way of the purpose of this forum: to talk about fencing.

Kingkenny, I think the best thing for you to do would be to let this lie now, as it's out in the open. Any further action could be taken as a LP-sponsored attack on a rival manufacturer. Everyone on the forum is already sensitive about the advertising issue, and this is just making things worse.

I'm sure there are several people on this forum with multiple identities. I don't think that's the issue here. Advertising, either deceitfully or not, is.

bydande
-23rd May 2003, 12:03
Steady on KingKenny,
1. I always act with the best intentions of ordinary fencers in mind. I set up gofence because I was tired of being ripped off by equipment suppliers and because everybody is human I may not always make the best decisions about how I spread the word. A small number of my posts may be a little over the top (like some of yours I would point out) but the overwhelming majority are either answers to peoples questions (without reference to any supplier) or genuine questions of my own.

2. You say
"I believe all of your posts have been deceitful and were to benefit you and not others."

How can you say that about the following posts:
"What strength kit do I need???
BF guidelines for clothing from 1st January 2006 can be found at:
http://www.britishfencing.com/safetystandards.htm

But to summarise the guidelines will be:
- if you only fence with practice foils (adult or child)
or are a child fencing electric with a short weapon (<size 3 blade)
then all 350N kit is acceptable
- if you are an adult fencing electric at a not A grade event then you can get away with a 350N jacket and breeches but you need an 800N plastron
- If you intend to compete at the higher levels (A Grades etc etc) you need all 800N clothing and a 1600n mask.

So based on your stated intentions you could probably get away with 350N jacket, breeches and mask and an 800N plastron. However, one should always remember that 800N kit is safer than 350N kit so a lot of people who dont compete at the top level still wear 800N kit out of consideration for their personal safety - even though it can be a lot more expensive.

So it really ends up as a balancing trick between, your goals (compete in A grades or not), your wallet (800N is more expensive) and your consideration for your personal safety. Different people value these three factors differently and may come with different conclusions to you or I."

and

"Forgot to mention that Germany is much cheaper for kit than the UK - for example AllStar prices in Germany are 30% cheaper than the identical stuff sold by Allstar UK over here. So if you are planning to visit Germany its well worth checking out the Uhlmann website for prices as well. There is an english version of their site at: http://www.uhlmann-fechtsport.de/inhalt_e.htm

Generally speaking I think the Uhlmann clothing is as good as LP or Duellist - my only complaint is about the markup on their kit sold in the UK. Uhlmann and Allstar keep their prices artificially high in the UK through exclusive distribution agreements.

I have heard some negative comments about the cheaper Uhlmann weapons though and a friend of mine is certainly dissapointed with the foil he bought for his son. After only three months of use it has already gone soft and swan-necked."

These post - and there are many others like them - are quite clearly unbiased, for the information of fellow fencers and are not self serving iun any way. So you are clearly guilty of deceit as well!!

I would also remind you that you made the following post:
"Is gofence CE and or 350Newton prodective? abird suggested it was not which would explaine the price."
A clear attempt to attack a competitor - even though you knew nothing about the TCA kit. Some would describe this as a deceitful atempt to cast aspersions on a competitor. How would you descibe it?

If we were to go with the bible on this one, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - I think you should be near the back of the line of accusers rushing to stone me.

To be honest, to me, your hysterical reaction merely indicates more worry about my business growth (its growing very quickly thank you very much) than anything else.

Hold a poll - happy to abide by the users decision. But at least try and phrase the question with some dignity and restraint.

Mantis
-23rd May 2003, 12:13
With all due respect ...


Originally posted by Kingkenny
That sounds like an excuse a child would use after being caught lying. You are directly connected and lead people to believe that you were offering independent advice. I believe all of your posts have been deceitful and were to benefit you and not others.
I can?t be bothered having a slating match over the forum.

How does this look? To me it looks like a case of, "here's my final dagger in the ribs and don't bother responding because I'm not listening." I would remind you that you invited the slating match by making the public accusation in the first place.

Maybe you are right that the person in question behaved in an underhand and deceitful way - I am not calling this into question - but did you take the time to speak to them privately? I say 'them' deliberately, because in your eagerness to make your accusations public you managed to malign an innocent by-stander. This embarrassment could have been avoided so easily with a PM.

In future I think that it would be better to keep possible abuses of the system private until they confirmed.

Bye,

Joe

bydande
-23rd May 2003, 12:23
Sorry if my last post was bit over the top
- but I never expected to get such hassle from my fellow fencing suppliers and as gofence.com grows, its getting worse.

Since starting gofence.com I have had whispering campaigns against the kit (for example some members of SF committee/board trying to discredit the kit), negative comments from the likes of KingKenny on this forum and a little while ago AllStar reported gofence to the Trading Standards Office. Now that was a laugh because the mask they reported was actually from the same factory as their own mask i.e. they reported their own mask - ho ho ho. Incidentally its also the same mask as sold by Duellist. So of course the mask is perfectly sound and CE certified by the Italian manufacturer.

I hope that eventually this unpleasantness will die down and everybody will come to accept gofence.com as just another supplier. Untill then I will try to tone down my responses to any attacks and try not to rise to the bait.

My apologies to all users for any and all confusion caused.

haggis
-23rd May 2003, 12:24
Just for fun, why not look in "members" for bydande and do a search of his 97 posts. I think you'll find a pattern to the topics, names and opinions that appear.

I am, in principle, in favour of competition in the fencing equipment market because I really do have no vested interest in any of the suppliers and would like to see the costs to fencers come down. So I welcome gofence's arrival in the market. However, in this forum, Barry Paul is clearly Barry Paul of Leon Paul and his opinions on all topics can be valued or taken with a pinch of salt with that knowledge. Bydande/Gofence's twin existence has removed that kind of transparency and, despite the fact that it has become increasingly obvious that bydande had more than a passing interest in gofence, it seems too slippery a position for me to feel comfortable, even now that it's out in the open.:(

Bydande: now that's a signature I like:)

bydande
-23rd May 2003, 12:43
Just did the search

Threads that bydande has contributed to: 28
of which bydande has mentioned gofence in: 6
of which bydande has mentioned Uhlmann in: 8

So as you can see, I have actually mentioned (and reccomended) Uhlmann more often than I have gofence.

kingkenny
-23rd May 2003, 13:23
This is an open forum not a pm service life is easy with hindsight but I still thinks it wrong and I think most people would agree.

Kingkenny, I think the best thing for you to do would be to let this lie now, as it's out in the open. Arturo I think that sound like good advise.

Chow have a good bank holiday. ;) :tongue: :grin:

PM1
-23rd May 2003, 13:27
Just back home after a gruelling morning at court, openned my email and followed thread repies, then had a quick glance at the rest. Was I home at all??? For what it's worth, my opinion (not considered and pro bono) - All rules/regulations etc are there for a purpose, generally to protect the common good. They are all open to interpretation, some more than others.

My simplistic view is, why have 2 user names unless for a particular purpose?? You may have seen the ad, where you hear a young child's voice speaking what is written on a computer screen (football, etc), and the camera then pans out to show a man* and some words/voice over about paedophiles not being obvious. Clear deception, clear ulterior motive - once you know. And that is what I think the rule about no multiple user names is about - transparency. We mostly have silly idents on the forum, but there is no obvious harm in that.

*mouthing the words spoken in the child's voice.

Bydande, Kingkenny - talk to each other off line now, please. You have each explaned your position on this forum, and each has your own point of view. I would prefer the rule to be abided by. Thank you Bydande for changing your tag line.

NOW can I go and pack so that I can catch the 1.00am ferry from Dover?????????

Mischa
-23rd May 2003, 13:54
I think there should be a clarification on the type of forum this is: one with the company (Leon Paul's) interests at heart or an open, free forum.

In other words, is this a commerical company's messageboard?

Saxon
-23rd May 2003, 13:59
Bear in mind that that's exactly what the old FencingUK forum degenerated into, once a certain manufacturer found it.

Checked a few days ago when I unsubscribed, and the only posts were this one manufacturer and David K posting about the Ridley Martin.

Looks like they haven't found this one yet, but it has to be just a matter of time...

Then again, while the chat/adverts ratio is still quite high, is that a bad thing?


SUGGESTION
Keep all marketing/manufacturer advocacy threads to a separate section?

bydande
-23rd May 2003, 14:33
I really didnt mean to mis-lead people.

1. I first registered as bydande because thats the name I usually use in online forums - the word bydand(e) comes from the Doric language from the Scottish North East and it means steadfast and reliable. (sorry if that seems ironic in the current situation)

2. I only registered as gofence because I wanted to reply to some negative comments about the TCA kit sold on gofence.com. I just thought it would be better to reply using a username that fully portrayed some knowledge on the subject.

3. After creating the gofence usename I used it for posts because it was transparent who I was. At this stage I did a few blatent marketing posts which were moderated out and we had the discussion on whether this was a free forum or an LP markeing channel.

4. When it was made clear that this forum was an LP marketing channel (LP's perogotive to make it so) I had to decide which username to continue using. To start with I had used bydande (my prefered and usual username) but had then switched to gofence (more of a nome de guerre) but the result was that I had a lot more posts under the bydande name than the gofence name - so I decided to stop using gofence and stick with bydande because it meant I would get to the 50 post level quicker and enable me to change my user level id from "Junior member" to "Mad Bad Dad" - which is my online games name. Not a very good reason - but a reason all the same.

5. In hindsight this decision was probably a mistake (and the reason for it certainly seems a little dumb now that I see it written down) - and I should have continued using the gofence name instead. I did look to see if I could delete the "gofence" or "bydande" usernames but I couldnt - moderators might be able to block new posts by a user and delete old postings but I would imagine that deleting a username might screw up the posts database. So you see, I never intended to permanently run two usernames in tandem - but having created the second for a specific purpose I couldnt delete it.

I am sure that KingKenny and I can kiss and makeup (well the making up bit anyway) because we are both reasonable people and even friends argue sometimes.

Again - apologies all round.

haggis
-23rd May 2003, 14:48
Ok, bydande, I'll forgive you. Hope things work out well for your company despite the difficulties in getting your name known. If you're at Inverclyde do come up and say hello. I'm much nicer and friendlier in real life than here (hang on, no I'm not! But I'll try:grin: )

Regards

Haggis

PM1
-23rd May 2003, 14:50
Packed now, and waiting for an email from work....

I don't see this as an advertising board for LP, so if i'm naive about that, I am. I like the mad chatter and ability of those from wherever to join in, pick brains, and so on.

Why not have a seperate advertising thread?? Now that WOULD be big boys being brave stuff - but open and honest all the same. I don't always buy LP for my son - I'd like to hear how other kit wears, and so on, but from people who WEAR it, not just MARKET it - and I know, Bydande, you and your family use and abuse loads of different manufacts stuff. But I DIDN'T know what gofence was, other than an ident, so you see, I was potentialy caught out......no fool like an ol' one.

Go make up and drink mucho beer.

Email here, so must go - and then allez a belle france!!!!!

bydande
-23rd May 2003, 14:57
Haggis,
Thanks.

I will be at the inverclyde - friday, Saturday and Sunday.
Doing the refereeing course practical on the Saturday (foil) and Sunday (Epee). I want to get the foil qualification so that I can help out at the Youth Series Events (both my daughters compete in them) and the Epee qualification because I am considering switching from foil to Epee (to fit in with most people at my club). I may even compete in both as well.

see you there.

oiuyt
-23rd May 2003, 19:29
My vote: Yes bydande/gofence was intentionally being misleading, most obviously in the post where he said that he didn't work for any supplier.

That said, I think that sorting out who all of the LP employees are is nearly as hard. Barry Paul is obvious, but KingKenney is only obvious from his content. Are there other LP employees on? I assume so, and if it isn't someone that I've seen a lot talking about things other than how great LP kit is I'll assume that anyone touting LP is an LP employee. I guess I missed the advertising thread, but it sounds to me like the moderators were more than a bit heavyhanded with their partiality. If LP has different rules here than the other suppliers I would have been happier if the forum were hosted in their domain. Yes I get that it's run by Leon Paul, yes I get that they sponsor it, I have no problem with that translating into extra mentions at the top of each page or links to the LP website, but I'd been assuming that the content of the forum was still free.

fencing.net seems to do a significantly better job of this. Yes there are at least 2 vendors that I know of that post there (including Barry who is listed as being from Oregon), but there is very little touting of products by involved parties. Lots of discussion of who makes the best equipment, comparisons of different manufacturers machines, etc. The forums still manage to stay clear of adverts.

Now I don't think that it's really fair to compare the two. fencingforum.com was set up to help market LP (I just wish that it had stayed mostly subtle background marketing), while fencing.net was set up just to provide an online messaging board for the fencing community. Fencing.net is heavily US-centric, fencingforum.com is even more UK-centric (it's interesting seeing what the differences are). I enjoy and regularly read both. I post considerably more frequently on fencing.net, in part because I have more to say on the topics the invovle how fencing is run in the US, and in part because it's a more established board which therefor has higher quantity and a greater variety of topics.

I have no clue where this post was going when I started (got sidetracked by a phone call midway), so I'll just leave it hanging here.

-B :)

Aoife
-24th May 2003, 16:05
You may have seen the ad, where you hear a young child's voice speaking what is written on a computer screen (football, etc), and the camera then pans out to show a man and some words/voice over about paedophiles not being obvious.


Some years ago I was banned from a BBC forum because they thought I was 'an adult posing as a child for ulterior purposes'. Which annoyed me a bit, as I was 12 at the time :)

Hudson
-24th May 2003, 16:13
it;s quite easy to belive you are older than you actualy are (try saying that drunk) as you appear alot older in the way you put yourself accross (most of the time ;) )

wingnutLP
-24th May 2003, 18:56
I think that it is fairly obvious to all concerned that Bydande was disobeying the forum rules: "• Do not use multiple user names to conceal your identity." in order to try to increace the credibility of Gofence products. It is also sad that he felt the need to try to give his actions credibility by making up a string of excuses that were clearly nonsense. Right up untill it was pointed out to Bydande that he had been rumbled he was still advertising Gofence products, slating other manufacturers and wording his posts in such a way as to disguise the fact that he had financial interests.

In my personal view I believe he was deliberately misleading other forum users in order to try to make money which I think is dispicable.

With regards to who is a Leon Paul emplyee i think it is fairly obvious that the Moderators (myself included) and Barry Paul are. Aside from that there are no other LP employees posting on this site under any username.

oiuyt
-24th May 2003, 19:44
It wasn't obvious when I first came to the forum. Just because it's sponsored by LP doesn't mean that it is run by LP (hence my point about it not being in the LP domain). Are all of the moderators LP employees? IIRC there was a thread where someone was offered the right to be added to the moderators for that part of the forum (sorry for lack of specifics, I saw the post at least several days ago and have no clue where). That implies that non-LP people can become moderators which in turn modifies the assumption that all moderators are LP people.

Now, in point of fact, from the content of the messages from KingKenney (and the rest of the moderators) it became clear to me within several days of reading that fencingforum is run by LP rather than merely supported, but that was NOT the assumption that I had made on originally joining. It would have made perfect sense for LP to financially support an independent forum in exchange for preferred status such as the "Sponsored by" tagline and the prominent links at the top of each page.

As the sponsors/maintainers/runners of the site you of course have the right and ability to set up whatever rules you choose. I wish that you hadn't decided that it's okay for LP employees to push their products but not for any other supplier. I understand the reasons there, I merely disagree with them. I would have a problem with ANY supplier using gofence's tactics, and think that such should be viewed as an abuse of the system. When abuse isn't the case however I'd rather see the content of the messages being unconstrained. If a user asks for advice I'd like to see LP be able to suggest their products, I'd like to see supplier X be able to suggest their products, and I'd like to see each unaffiliated enduser be able to suggest their personal preferences regardless of which supplier that means they suggest. Advertising is out. Okay, that makes sense. Suppliers other than LP talking about their products while not advertising (yes, a very blurable line) should be allowed.

For what it's worth, being in the US, I'm unlikely to buy from any UK supplier. While I've heard really good things about LP, the costs (here at least) are prohibitive. Nearly all of my kit is Uhlmann, purchased almost completely from US vendors. My club has for the past couple of years been purchasing directly from Uhlmann, and as my kit (from before we started such direct purchases) wears out and gets replaced, I anticipate ordering from Germany as well. What suppliers do or don't do on this board has minimal direct impact on me. How free people on the board feel to talk about any issue does, however, impact how much I value the rest of the board.

I'm glad that you run the board, I find it a worthwhile resource (why else would I read it every day?). It's not as valuable to me as fencing.net, both because it's smaller (in large part because it's newer, with time this should partially go away) and due to it's UK-centric nature (which in turn makes it considerably MORE valuable to the majority of the posters here). If nothing else, the difference between a commercially run board and an independent one is interesting. Keep up the good work.

-B :)

bydande
-24th May 2003, 20:36
1. I have only ever slated fencing products that I, my family or my friends have had direct experience off - and that have failed us in some way. I would contrast this with KingKenny who saw fit to infer that the gofence kit was not properly 350N certified - even though he had no knowledge or experience of the TCA kit what so ever. That sort of behaviour is as bad as anything I did.

2. I have also been fulsom in my praise for those products that I have experienced and that I like - irrespective of the supplier. For example I have actually made more positive comments about Uhlmann kit than I have gofence/TCA kit.

3. I think all the LP moderators should have "LP employee" in their tag lines. There have been a number of postings on this forum from people who didnt initially realise that KingKenny and others were LP employees. When I first joined the forum I assumed that the moderators were just "interested fencers" who had offered their services to the forum. It was only after a while of seeing all their pro LP comments (and one thread about KingKenny) that I realised that all the moderators were probably LP employees.

4. I joined the forum because I was told that it was a free forum only sponsored by LP - not run by and for the benefit of LP. The 2/3 really offending posts that I made were done in the heat of the moment after LP started to moderate out some of the gofence posts - and the no advertising by anybody other than LP rule was implemented. To me it just didnt seem fair, and certainly different from what I had been led to believe when joining, and in the heat of my indignation I made some il-judged posts which blurred the edges of the new "advise" dont "advertise" rule. In hindsight (its a wonderful thing isnt it) I should have just let my indignation settle and allowed myself a couple of days to cool off before doing any further posts. But I didnt and now I am sorry.

James
-24th May 2003, 20:40
Having started a couple of the threads on which gofence and bydande have posted on i personally feel misled.

I asked a newbie type question, wanting information on where - and how - to go about buying kit. From barry(i think it was barry) paul i get a response saying to email for a quote on what i wanted, from gofence i get a similar post.

So far no problem

I see no reason why other companies should not be allowed to offer information and contact details, what is a problem for me is when they use a seperate identity to support the idea that it is better to buy from them.

That pisses me off

No one from leon paul posted as someone else sayingthat their kit was better, ok, so once i was emailing them they did say that other people would be able to undercut them and offered their reasons for this, but thats how it should be done - not by misleading me.

(exscusing it because you believe that your corporate self can be seperated from your fencing self and offer a unbiased opinion, something i believe impossible)

In the end i have bought my first bits of kit from leon paul, possibly a knee jerk reaction to feelling manipulated, possibly a wise choice.

I'll come back to you on that one once i've been fencing for five or so years and know the answer.

To conlude?

It wouldn't bother me so much if i new more about fencing equipment, but i dont. I have to rely on information from others
and i'd like to be able to trust that information so that i can make the best choice for me.

James

Tubby
-26th May 2003, 22:32
What an innocent I've been!

1. When I joined the forum I thought it was run by LP. The LP website link says "brought to you by Leon Paul" with the link in a graphic of what looks like Camille Datoo wearing LP gear. Sure it could have meant sponsored by but that was my interpretation. If you came to the forum from another route maybe its not as clear.

2. I was sucked into looking at the goFence website after reading Bydande's road to damascus view on kit, had I known he was Mr goFence I still would have looked but in the knowledge that the testament may have been biased.

3. Reading Bydande's posts to this thread there feels as if more hues to the story have emerged with each post.

4. As to advertising, there plenty of ways to advertise a company, ok I hadn't seen goFence before so maybe planting the advert in the forum has worked, and I suspect it won't be the last time something like this happens. The idea that there should be a section for adverts may have merits, but then whats the point in LP investing £'000 in a marketing strategy which includes the Forum to give competitiors a freebie ride. Let them spend their own cash on their own ventures or sponsor other activities/put cash back into the sport as a way of spreading their brand awareness.
.:cookie:

Marcos
-24th June 2003, 13:11
Originally posted by wingnut


With regards to who is a Leon Paul emplyee i think it is fairly obvious that the Moderators (myself included) and Barry Paul are.

I've been on here a couple of weeks and thought it was just King-mask designer-kenny and Barry Paul who worked for LP.

If you work for a manufacturer I think you should make it clear.
If anything I reckon it gives your posts more credibility

:judge:

Gav
-24th June 2003, 13:16
I do not work for Leon Paul.

I will endorse products [or not] dependent on how good I think they are. I will always be subjective.