PDA

View Full Version : Fencers refereeing



Rhubarb
-22nd May 2003, 16:05
Can fencers referee!?:moon:

Saxon
-22nd May 2003, 17:24
Depends on the fencer, weapon, competition, time of year, breakfast, etc etc etc.

If two fencers are stupid enough to ask me to stand in the middle, then I'll referee, but they'll get results which can be - ah - variable.

Other alternatives to this question:


Should fencers referee?

Can referees fence?

Can referees referee?

Moose
-22nd May 2003, 21:10
No, but they have to
Perhaps, but they shouldn't
Not normally
:blaaaa:

Cheetara
-23rd May 2003, 14:15
I am not a good president. But when I've just fenced I'm even worse and if I have to fence straight after my fencing's worse too. Even if I've just fought foil for BUSA and have then presided men's sabre.

Fencers presiding their poules is a nightmare. Even people who are generally good presidents make more mistakes when they're fencing at the same time.

Gav
-23rd May 2003, 14:19
Until we have a fully paid, independent, proffesional ref's for every pool and round then I don't see the situation chaniging whether we like it or not.

Mantis
-23rd May 2003, 14:36
Can fencers referee? Mostly no, but they should be able to for the reason Gav stated, if none other.

Of all refereeing fencers, I think the worst are those who think they can when in reality they cannot. I would say these are even worse than those who know they cannot but will try if you ask them.

Bye.

Joe

Rhubarb
-23rd May 2003, 15:49
Fencers don't referee they perform a small part of the whole function of a referee (see the rules regarding duties and obligations of referees) whilst whingeing and generally re-inforcing bad practice. this is a particularly official intensive sport, (1 for 2), in which rules and regulations play an important role so the general ignorance of the rules would be funny if they were in any way secret and it didn't matter.

People who think referee's unimportant should have a look at the pages of this forum........Its ALL refereeing, whether titled foil, epee or sabre

Mischa
-23rd May 2003, 16:56
I'm pretty good at refereeing epee :tongue:

No, I myself can't referee AT ALL. Unfortunately, I have to referee at my club. Hopefully I'll improve.

Saxon
-23rd May 2003, 17:12
Oh don't start that old one... I'm told it takes more to referee epee than being able to count to fifteen, but personally, I'm not convinced.

Don't hit me - it's Friday and it took me an hour and forty to get home

:tongue:

Mantis
-23rd May 2003, 17:21
Course it does - you need to be able to tell green from red.

Seriously, though, it is easy about 99% of the time but it is the other 1% that you have to worry about.

Bye,

Joe

Saxon
-23rd May 2003, 17:41
Yes, and then the *******s know all the rules...

Rdb811
-24th May 2003, 23:34
If it blows in epee it blows up big time - usually invovling corps a corps while stepping off piste whien a piece of equipment breaks.

In the words of Kieth Smith, epeeists know all the rules, it's their last defence against being hit.

oiuyt
-25th May 2003, 00:23
The higher the level of the fencers the harder epee gets and the easier the ROW weapons get for the referee. When you have 2 good sabre fencers, the referee's job gets really easy. The fencers know when they don't have ROW and are busy attempting to defend rather than countering. The only slightly tricky bit is when they are both attacking at about the same time, and with any experience at all it should be easy to just see which started first.

Low level epee is trivial to referee. Novice sabre is the hardest.

-B :)

3 Card Trick
-25th May 2003, 11:05
Have to agree with Oiyut on this one.:)

Demonic
-25th May 2003, 11:44
I hate being the ref especially in cases when i call hault just as a hit is scored :confused:

I think at the end of the day we all need to be good sportsman and admit hits etc.. I remember once i hit aguy on the foot who said it didnt hit and the fall spotter wasnt paying attention.Anyway i lost the fight 5-4 cause it was a simulatanious :( i found it funny thought when my opponent limped of the piste sat down and took his shoe off to see the damage i had done to his foot :tongue:
When the president saw this he was like 'ummmm sorry i guess u did hit him then'
i had to laugh :grin:

Mantis
-25th May 2003, 15:44
If you call halt just as a hit is scored it would normally stand, except when some other rule makes it invalid, because the action must have started before the halt and that is what matters. The exception to this is if halt is called because of time (although this should be called by the time-keeper anyway) and in this case no hits after the halt are valid at all.

Bye,

Joe

randomsabreur
-25th May 2003, 17:27
Yes provided that they are not fencing in the pool at that time!

Often, the effect of refereeing a pool is that the fencing is bad and the refereeing is worse.

I think that beginnerish epee is the easyest to referee. Novice sabre can be OK but can be dire with neither person attacking.

Top level men's sabre is v. v. v. scary! Imagine being shouted at by two huge sabreurs! That said it is usually clear, unless both are looking for tempo!

Just don't go there with foil, no way is anyone going to agree with anyone else's interpretation of right of way

3 Card Trick
-25th May 2003, 21:13
Inscrutability and calm are essential for all who would referee.

Rdb811
-25th May 2003, 21:28
And being very very definate about your decisions - I once ended up refereeing both the closing stages of a small epee comp and the sabre - the first sabre fight i was about to call double, then realised this wasn't a good idea. There was one argument as on of the sabreurs knew the rules less well than I did.

3 Card Trick
-26th May 2003, 09:33
Yes, all referee's decisions should be delivered instantly, calmly and courteously. He who hesitates is lost.

:grin:

Moose
-26th May 2003, 14:11
Decisions should be delivered before the match over a pint of beer and a hefty bribe :grin:

Rdb811
-26th May 2003, 16:21
Originally posted by 3 Card Trick
Yes, all referee's decisions should be delivered instantly, calmly and courteously. He who hesitates is lost.

:grin:

The worst one I've seen is a committee of the two fencers and the ref trying to deciide what happened.

Watch out for old lags who knew the rules years ago but haven't kept up to date. ou'd be amazed how many 'experienced' fencers have lacunae in their knowledge of the rules / knowledge of competition organisation.

Moose
-26th May 2003, 16:28
What, like awarding each fencer a point for double hits at sabre :grin:

Rdb811
-26th May 2003, 16:53
It would make the presiding a lot easier.


I've had things like the wording of the end of the action when a fencer steps off pistes or the way indicators are calculated. Or the rule on the clip becoming detached.

randomsabreur
-26th May 2003, 20:55
I seem to remember a team match at the Winton in the WS, where the best fencers acknowledged hits for themselves, and the weaker fencers had hits acknowledged for them by their team members! The referee hadn't got a clue but could not be removed half way through the match so they were stuck with them. The right result happened. but no one could split the trickier hits, when no-one knew what had happened, least of all the fencers. Now that was fun to watch

Mantis
-26th May 2003, 21:14
I thought there were cases when the referee could be changed if one of the fencers requested it. I'm not entirely sure of the specifics, or even if this is at all correct. Can anyone comment?

Bye,

Joe

Rdb811
-26th May 2003, 21:43
Not according to my copy of the rules - I think there was in the past (all sorts of tihings about committees d'appel) - the referee can only be removed at the end of the fight by the DT.

Moose
-26th May 2003, 22:03
One thing tho, is it right for fencers to preside within their own poule?

Rdb811
-26th May 2003, 22:38
Not according to the rules (the FIE rules assume all referees are actaul referees) - in practice it is impossible to fid enough referees to go round.

It is customary not to preside your own club mates, off spring or next oppopent in the DE and it's not really a good idea to preside a bout if you're up next. (Loss of concentration, although most fencers will do it quite happily).

Epee and sabre pools tend to organise themselves - the senior fencers sort of know who they are and sort it out - I assume the same happens in foil. Usually there are two competant ref in a sabre pool - the fun starts when they have to face each other. Epees a bit more even, since everybody assumes it's quite simple (which it is most of the time).

I'll add for the benefit of competition organisers that the above is true for mens pools - a somewhat smaller proportion of female fencers are prepared to preside (at least in competitions that I've organised) and thus require more non fening referees.

(Not me being sexist, just an observation, Muso)

randomsabreur
-27th May 2003, 07:47
I'm a girl and I don't think rdb's comment is sexist, just correct.
However, given there are fewer girls than blokes on the ranking lists and doing competitions it follows that there are fewer experienced fencers.


I have no problem refereeing DEs and competitions where I am not fencing, and seem to spend those weekends I am not competiting refereeing kids instead! BUT, I hate refereeing a poule I'm in, as I consistently screw up either my fencing, or my refereeing, or generally both. So I go for the classic girly approach and ask a bloke, usually someone's boyfriend, coach or lift to help out with a few fights!

The men all seem capable of not messing up despite having to referee. That is a skill i don't seem to have developed and wish I had!

Moose
-27th May 2003, 10:01
Lol, why is it when I end up at a big cometition I get two girls begging me to ref instead of them. Luckily I managed to get out of it, cos I hate doing it :)

Mantis
-27th May 2003, 10:06
Originally posted by Moose
Lol, why is it when I end up at a big cometition I get two girls begging me

Because you are so tall, dark and mysterious? ;)

Bye,

Joe

Moose
-27th May 2003, 10:09
Lol, only thing mysterious about me is my parentage ;)

Cheetara
-27th May 2003, 12:26
I am absolutely shameless about asking blokes to preside. I'll ask anyone even if I've only spoken to them once or twice as long as they can actually preside.

Especially if there's someone about that might possibly preside who I think is a crap president or even if I simply don't like them.

Mantis
-27th May 2003, 12:48
Originally posted by Cheetara
I am absolutely shameless about asking blokes to preside. I'll ask anyone even if I've only spoken to them once or twice as long as they can actually preside.

I don't seem to remember you ever asking me.


Especially if there's someone about that might possibly preside who I think is a crap president or even if I simply don't like them.

Ah, point taken.

randomsabruer's comment about men having a skill for not getting messed up by having to referee in their own poule is interesting. I'm not sure it is right to make such a blanket statement, as I have come across men who have declined refereeing specifically bacause they are on next. I suppose there are people of both sexes who need to get 'psyched up' before fencing. I think the point that there are generally more men about than women is closer to the truth.

Bye,

Joe

Moose
-27th May 2003, 13:15
I just dont thing at fencers should be allowed to ref their own poules, maybe if they had to ref another poule it would be better, with the rumours flying round abotut corrupt refs it might put people at ease.

Boo Boo
-27th May 2003, 13:24
Its also a confidence thing and how people deal with their confidence.

In general, if women aren't confident about their abilities they will refuse to preside (partly because they don't want to do anyone out of a hit, partly because they don't want any grief when they get it wrong ;) ).

In general, most men have more confidence than most women (even if that confidence is sometimes misplaced...) and will preside anyway. Men also, in general, take grief less personally than women do.

I always referee in my poules (although would rather not - it can be pretty tiring - would rather focus on myself...) and always try not to referee the fight immediately before I fence.

Boo

Rdb811
-27th May 2003, 16:23
Originally posted by Mantis
I suppose there are people of both sexes who need to get 'psyched up' before fencing.


Actually I need to be psyched up to preside, espceially sabre.

Changing weapons while presiding is a real killer.

Rdb811
-27th May 2003, 16:25
Originally posted by Moose
I just dont thing at fencers should be allowed to ref their own poules, maybe if they had to ref another poule it would be better, with the rumours flying round abotut corrupt refs it might put people at ease.

Not practical - you'll always be due to fence when the box goes down halfway through a fight in another pool.

The allegations of corruption relate to internationals - the only dodgy ref I've had was from my own club.

doobarz
-27th May 2003, 17:29
Then you get the fencers taht no one wants to referee, regardless of gender, as they will refuse to accept a decision, even if it is correct....

I won't name any names, but I know I shy away from some people.

gladiator
-27th May 2003, 21:00
Originally posted by Moose
I just dont thing at fencers should be allowed to ref their own poules, maybe if they had to ref another poule it would be better, with the rumours flying round abotut corrupt refs it might put people at ease.

This would be a really bad idea and no doubt a nightmare for anyone organising the competition as it would only make it lonnger. Also, those able to referee are likely to know as many people in another poule as their own, even their club mates.

Until the fencers stop intimidating and constantly arguing with referees whilst they are still learning and improving, there will never be enough official, independant (?) referees.

If i'm refereeing at a competition and happen to have a quiet moment and someone asks if i'll referee a fight or two, as long as i'm not scheduled to ref immediately, i'm happy to help out. There are often many people around who will help, you just need to know who to ask. However, there is never going to be a queue of people lining up to ref at a shouted plea! Out of a crowd watching sabre, there will often be someone who understands enough sabre to referee some fights anyway.

Unless you have huge amounts of refs (and let's face it, there rarely are) they generally rest through the poules as they are very tiring and are saved until the DE so they can be sharper. Constantly concentrating on fast moving blades all day is more tiring than many people think!

Anyway, to get back to the thread topic, fencers are often going to have to ref themselves, and I personally think that it helps them to understand the difficulties and see it from the refs point of view! You never know, it might even improve their fencing!

Anyway that's my 2p, or 2cents if we go into Europe like it seems!

Moose
-27th May 2003, 21:24
I just mean should they ref in a poule where they could affect the outcome in their favour?

Rdb811
-27th May 2003, 21:29
Originally posted by gladiator


Anyway, to get back to the thread topic, fencers are often going to have to ref themselves, and I personally think that it helps them to understand the difficulties and see it from the refs point of view! You never know, it might even improve their fencing!



Good point

Rdb811
-27th May 2003, 21:31
Originally posted by gladiator


Anyway that's my 2p, or 2cents if we go into Europe like it seems!

<Starts to rant, but thinks better of it>

gladiator
-27th May 2003, 21:31
Ideally No, but I think most people realise that it will often be necessary given the current amount of refs.

I also think that most of the fencers who are confident enough to referee are generally ok. The fencers concerned will most likely know who is good enough to ref them, so will only ask someone reasonable. If no one else is available, they will just have to make sure that there are as many one lights in their favour as possible. i.e. less attack/counterattack and more (clearer) parry-riposte etc..

gladiator
-27th May 2003, 21:34
Originally posted by Rdb811
<Starts to rant, but thinks better of it>

Well done for resisting! Prob shouldn't have written that as have no wish what-so-ever to discuss it!

Moose
-27th May 2003, 21:45
Its pence. Pounds, Shillings and Pence.

gladiator
-27th May 2003, 21:50
Originally posted by Moose
Its pence. Pounds, Shillings and Pence.

At the moment yes!(Well, not shillings) If you've seen/heard/read the news recently it may well soon be euros & cents!

Moose
-27th May 2003, 23:13
Over my dead body :)

nahouw
-31st May 2003, 20:33
Originally posted by gladiator
This would be a really bad idea and no doubt a nightmare for anyone organising the competition as it would only make it lonnger. Also, those able to referee are likely to know as many people in another poule as their own, even their club mates.

>>>As one who organizes competitions, this is a nightmare time-wise if you don't have the fencers referee their own pools. In our Division, if I have a competition in which I am short of referees, I approach some of the fencers who are capable of refereeing and ask them to referee the pools in exchange for their entry fee. I also tell them to get me and I will referee any bouts in which there is a potential conflict of interest.

Until the fencers stop intimidating and constantly arguing with referees whilst they are still learning and improving, there will never be enough official, independant (?) referees.

>>>This is so true. I only use fencers refereeing in pools in local competitions and not in qualifying competitions -- this is part of my refereeing training program. And, when some fencer starts complaining about a referee, I observe the referee, and am able to give the fencer a blow-by-blow account on what the fencer was doing wrong and why the referee called it right -- this usually corrects their attitude problem about the referee -- what I can't understand is that the fencers who complain are those whose egos are fed by their coaches -- they get a sense of entitlement, and don't think that they can do any wrong. With their complaints, I wind up spending an inordinate about of time which amounts to coaching -- why aren't the coaches teaching kids that it takes 2 to tango --- that they have to not only do actions that they are trained in lessons, but also observe your opponent and take the APPROPRIATE action.

Anyway, to get back to the thread topic, fencers are often going to have to ref themselves, and I personally think that it helps them to understand the difficulties and see it from the refs point of view! You never know, it might even improve their fencing!

>>> I TOTALLY agree. I always say that by refereeing that you improve your fencing. I was especially gratified by our last referee seminar -- we had a dozen kids aged 14-17 attending. They know that in my referee development program that I support, encourage and teach them, and they wanted to learn more and get certified. I think that if more clubs take a pro-active way in referee development at a young age as I have, that this would be beneficial to all of fencing.

gladiator
-31st May 2003, 21:45
Glad to see someone agreeing!

Sounds like you have the luxury of a few more referees than us across the water. I have seen some of the biggest open competitions where the sabre finals have been refed by fencers, once even one of the ones in the last 4. This was before I felt comfident enough to ref even nearly this level.

Moose
-2nd June 2003, 05:40
Thing is sabre is the one weapon that demands spotless presiding, when an action is dependent on both and and foot a president has to be very good to watch for everything

Rhubarb
-2nd June 2003, 14:31
I think every weapon 'demands spotless refereeing' They just do not get it because too often, fencers are refereeing fencers, and the ability to get some hits the right way is NOT the full deal and short changes competitors everywhere. Can I commend the BFA ref's committee and Scottish Fencing for their refereeing seminar and exam at the Inverclyde tournament. I hear it was a great success. Come on you guys who think you can ref..... sign up for the next one and lets all find out!!

Moose
-2nd June 2003, 14:33
I just meant that it requires a very competant ref to be able to pick up all the nuances.