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James
-23rd May 2003, 07:16
how essential are these as a piece of kit?

James

foilerist
-23rd May 2003, 07:21
plastrons can help reduce bruising, especially if you use an fie rated one. the first plastron i used was just cotton, and my new fie one feels more comfortable. they become invaluable when newbies are attempting to flick hit on your back (ouch).

Muso440
-23rd May 2003, 07:47
Originally posted by foilerist
they become invaluable when newbies are attempting to flick hit on your back (ouch).

Newbies? Flick hit? This newbie says: 'what's that?' ;)

How long is one a newbie for anyway, actually? I'd say if you were doing flick hits you're not a newbie any more. Newbie for me = can just about parry but forgets to reposte...

rory
-23rd May 2003, 08:01
800 Newton plastrons will be required for elite (as defined by the International Committee) and British Championships (those events open to Over 16 year olds, excluding the British Intermediate Foil Championships) as of 1 January 2003.

From the BF website.
You should wear a plastron anyway - it's there to save your life.

bydande
-23rd May 2003, 08:02
You are probably not covered by the BF insurance policy if you dont wear a plastron.

Hudson
-23rd May 2003, 08:21
With out a plastron you are not covered insurance wise as it is deemed to be part of the kit requirment for fencing and you are required to wear one (just as a footballer is required to wear shinpads) You can be stoped from fencing if you don't have one on.
My advice would be to spend a bit extra and get a good plastron as it's an important piece of kit and as foilerist said they do help you stop getting as bruised.

Mantis
-23rd May 2003, 08:26
I remember being told a long time ago that one of the purposes of the plastron is to give extra protection under the seam under the armpit of your jacket. If there is going to be a weak point on a jacket where a broken blade can penetrate it is likely to be a seam, and the armpit is a particularly nasty place to get a blade wound.

Having said that, I don't believe I have ever seen a jacket being pierced by a broken blade, neither on a seam nor any other point.

Bye,

Joe

pinkelephant
-23rd May 2003, 08:30
Plastrons were invented when Vincent Bonfil died; a blade broke, went through the under arm seam into his armpit and straight into the aorta.

James
-23rd May 2003, 08:32
is there any point in me buying a 350N plastron
(other than its much cheaper)
or should i go for an 800N?
they seem incredibly expensive

thanks
James

haggis
-23rd May 2003, 08:33
Joe

You haven't lived! I've had my jacket or breeches punctured three times (admittedly this has taken nearly 25 years). Only one has been 800N kit but it did make me nervous and did draw blood.

Wear a plastron!!!

Hudson
-23rd May 2003, 08:36
I invested in on of the full body 800N ones, well worth it in my opinion though the half ones are just as good, if your going to do alot of comps i'r recomend the 800N ones

Saxon
-23rd May 2003, 08:42
The armpit is a direct entry point to the chest, where you keep some of your more important bits. The seam of a jacket would seem to be the most vulnerable point, and so the plastron is worn underneath, as it doesn't have a seam under the arm.

I have never seen a broken blade pierce fencing kit either. I've also never seen the top come off a double decker bus driven under a bridge, but I think it might be a Bad Thing...

From the BFA Safety Guidelines (http://www.britishfencing.com/safety_guidelines.html):

Plastrons: These should be of a double thickness material with no seams under the armpit, and they should not be attached to the jacket in any way. A simple under-jacket or T-shirt is not sufficient. Plastrons should always be worn when fencing.


As of January 2006, the new BFA safety standards (http://www.britishfencing.com/safetystandards.htm) come in:

800N (CEN2) plastrons are required for all fencing except size 3 or smaller blades (3 weapons), or all steam foil. In this case, 350N (CEN1) is specified, unless you are wearing 800N (CEN2) jacket, in which case no plastron is apparently required. Check them yourself, but that's how they read to me.


Personally, I'll wear one anyway. Can't hurt to have an extra layer.


As has been said before, if you don't comply with the BFA safety guidelines, they are fully entitled to wash their hands of you when your insurance claim comes up - "oh, well, we told them what they should do, and they didn't..."

bydande
-23rd May 2003, 08:47
From Jan 1 2006 - adults should wear an 800N plastron (BF guidelines).

Personally I always used to find them hot and uncomfortable until I was lent a lightweight Uhlmann 800N plastron. For me the protection against bruising is not a big deal (if you dont like bruises you should take up knitting) but the comfort factor is. If I have to wear a plastron then I want it to be light and comfortable - which the Uhlmann one is.

rory
-23rd May 2003, 08:47
There have been several deaths by broken-weapon-through-the-armpit.

One of the victims' families donated his kit to my old school club, so this stuff sticks in my mind.

I personally have had one incident of this nature happen to me - I was wearing one of the canvas jackets and fencing one of Scotlands better foilists (the big one! :) ) at a training camp years ago.
He put his (unbroken) foil straight through the seam and into the armpit area of my jacket.

Wear a plastron? Hell yes.

Mantis
-23rd May 2003, 09:50
Erm, I'm sorry if I appeared less than serious in my post. Yes, I always wear a plaston and yes, I would always tell anyone else to wear one too. Having always worn one I cannot say how much difference it makes but I don't intend to find out now. ;)
Incidentally, since people are asking, I have an 800N plastron. This wasn't by design (Christmas present from a shop that is not a speicalist fencing shop and the assistant thought the price tag was wrong :)) but I'm glad now that it seems it will be required in a couple of years.

Bye,

Joe

Muso440
-23rd May 2003, 11:49
So do you think that *everyone* should wear a plastron, even complete newbies? Or is there a stage when things are getting lively and vigorous enough when you need one, but while you're still pretty rubbish you don't need to bother?

As a non-plastron-wearing newbie, I'm rather disturbed by some of these death stories, so would quite like to know whether I should go and get one before I ever fence again....

Muso440
-23rd May 2003, 11:56
And another thing: does it make any difference for the girls who are wearing their busom-protecting thing?? Does that serve the same purpose, or would we actually ideally be wearing *three* layers here?

Saxon
-23rd May 2003, 12:00
Personal opinion:

If you have one, you should wear it.

If you don't have one, you should get one.

Until you have one, you are welcome to fence, you just may not be insured. These accidents are freak occurrences, and at beginner level, a point in the back of the mask from turning around is more likely than a broken blade in the armpit.

Getting a plastron would still be a priority.


Also, club organisers - you realise that if you do not enforce the BFA regs, you could *personally* be liable?

Have to check with the (many, apparently) lawyers on here, but as I understand it, if you aren't covered by insurance, they can go for you personally. That counts for organisers who do not enforce safety guidelines, and non-affiliated clubs, whether they enforce the guidelines or not. If your club is not BFA affiliated, as I understand it, you are not covered for this kind of thing.


Having said all that, smile and enjoy yourself - it's Friday!!

Saxon
-23rd May 2003, 12:02
Sorry girls, chest protectors (either "Boudicca" or frisbee shaped) are in addition to a plastron, not a replacement.

Mantis
-23rd May 2003, 12:25
Firstly, it is not how lively and vigorous you are that matters so much as how lively and vigorous your opponent is. Secondly, while I have known beginners who are very passive and need to learn to be more aggressive, there are also those who start fencing much to wildly but then become less vigorous with time.

Bye,

Joe

Cheetara
-23rd May 2003, 13:54
Having said that, I don't believe I have ever seen a jacket being pierced by a broken blade, neither on a seam nor any other point.

Didn't a blade go through someone's jacket at the invite comp? Quite a fuss if I remember correctly

On the piste nearest the cupboard

Mantis
-23rd May 2003, 14:03
Originally posted by Cheetara
Didn't a blade go through someone's jacket at the invite comp? Quite a fuss if I remember correctly

Yes, I had forgotten about that, but I didn't see it (ha-ha, my get out clause).

I think there was only a fuss because the sports centre had to write a report since a bandage had been used and they had never had something like this happen before.

How was your ankle, by the way?

Bye,

Joe

Dave Hillier
-23rd May 2003, 14:07
I had an epee blade break on me then pierce my jacket on top of my right shoulder. It went in on one side of the seam and out on the other. I didn't feel it at the time but the broken blade must have just grazed along my plastron.

I bought a new jacket and upgraded my plastron after that.

NLSC Sabreur
-23rd May 2003, 15:36
I've got a double sided (both sides of the body) 800N Allstar underplastron and its effective in cutting down on bruising compared to a simple cotton underplastron. Does avoiding bruising make me a wimp? If it does I don't care, after years of fencing I just find bruises boring. If its really very hot then I do fence without it.

I know many people don't wear an underpastron in training and then wear it for competitions but I think you are much better wearing in practice and getting used to the heat.

Underplastrons - Remember

Say No To Bruises
Say Yes To Safety

T-shirt, 800N double sided underplastron, 800N jacket, sabre lame -- How could anyone fence in less layers than that? :)

3 Card Trick
-23rd May 2003, 16:15
No plastron equals yellow card warning and you only get a reasonable period of time to find one to put on. If you are not back at the piste in time you will be excluded.

Plastrons are not a question of preference, they must be worn by all fencers in competition.

If you don't wear one in training you are being rather careless.:(

James
-23rd May 2003, 16:48
ah, by the looks of it i was right to order a plastron at the same time as a jacket
i didnt go for an 800N one
as since ive only just started i thought that the price jump compared to the advantages didnt make enough sense
i mainly got a new jacket because at my fencing club no one else my size has a lefthanded fencing jacket they can lend me
so since im entering inverclyde i thought i might as well get my own
and an plastron at the same time

thanks all
James

kbo518
-25th May 2003, 15:59
what size do you order in regardas to jacket size? same size? jacket on size larger?? plastron one size smaller? Thanks for the help.

Hudson
-25th May 2003, 16:02
most plastron come in small, medium, large or extra large (that's for the sabruers :tongue: )

Aoife
-25th May 2003, 17:53
BFA Insurance?

I'm taking it would would need to be a member of the BFA? If not, to practise what are you insured by? (what is nobody in your club is BFA? Including the coach?)

I'd never considered insurance... only in jest when I've said I was going to sue my coach for cutting the back of my hand. To be honest, if I were seriously injured in fencing I wouldn't sue my coach. Mind you... I never signed a waiver of that right :)

I'm also the only person in my club who wears a plastron. (Maybe my coach does, I'm not sure). It's 350N I think.


Hmmmn, the insurance thing is making me wonder now... I guess we're under the normal school insurance thingy (same as we would be in football or hockey... or trampelining- which has at least one person taken to hospital on a spinal board a year)

Hudson
-25th May 2003, 17:58
you should be covered by your school as it's a school club and i belive as long as your coach has up to date membership (coachs membership) your covered. to compete at an open you'll need BFA membership, look on their website for details.

Aoife
-25th May 2003, 18:37
[QUOTE]as long as your coach has up to date membership/QUOTE]

*cough cough* :confused:

I see.....

What if he's not a member of anything? (and isn't even a qualified coach?)

Hudson
-25th May 2003, 18:40
then i suggest he be pointed towards the BFA website.

Aoife
-25th May 2003, 19:12
I've suggested, and will do again.

We need our own membership when we want to start doing comps anyway.

3 Card Trick
-25th May 2003, 21:09
I am horrified by the apparent lack of plastrons. I won't fence against or referee over anyone who is not wearing a plastron.

Hudson
-25th May 2003, 21:15
i think this is a growing problem and something that needs to be enforced more as it is a major safty concern

pinkelephant
-28th May 2003, 20:36
I have also refused to fence someone at a club session, where they were wearing track suit trousers and no breeches, at epee. What made it even worse was the 3inches of bare flesh which appeared as soon as she lifted her arm. I would rather have the death of a friendship than the death of a friend on my conscience.

gladiator
-28th May 2003, 20:49
I agree that plastrons should always be worn, even when coaching. Get the beginners into the good habit early.

They are an important safety measure are should be treated as essential.

I also insist that at competitions (particularly kids) all the fencers wear plastrons whilst fighting. They are compulsory and if anyone coming on piste of mine without one I generally don't take kindly to them and have serious words etc...

Hudson
-31st May 2003, 18:47
should be checked by the ref before the start of the pool, every fight would take to long,

pinkelephant
-31st May 2003, 23:03
Should be before each DE fight as well as at the start of each pool.

Hudson
-1st June 2003, 09:15
think i'll be pushing that rule at the next RAF comp really hard, we state plastrons muct be worn but i think time we checked they are wearing them.

pinkelephant
-1st June 2003, 14:00
You can always cheer yourself by checking that the women are wearing breast protectors as well!!!!!!!:tongue:

Hudson
-1st June 2003, 15:39
wish i could but we have no female members at the moment, though i'll conduct carful checks at the next comp ;)

Moose
-2nd June 2003, 13:45
I've refused a fight cos my opponent wasnt wearing a plastron, eventually I capitulated and showed him why the extra padding is nice :grin:

Hudson
-2nd June 2003, 14:12
if i come across a fencer not wearing one i'll kick up a right fuss about it i think, getting rule amd being out here.

Moose
-2nd June 2003, 14:16
You should become an epeeist then :grin:

bydande
-2nd June 2003, 14:18
At the Inverclyde Open, because all of us "trainee" refs were being assessed we checked plastrons in the pools we presided - and I was amazed by how many people were not wearing a plastron. Yellow card - go get one!

Rdb811
-2nd June 2003, 14:18
Similarly epeeists who don't pull their socks up - I got hit through the sock a couple of weeks ago.

Moose
-2nd June 2003, 14:19
They'll learn one day when a blade snaps on them.

Hudson
-2nd June 2003, 14:20
i am anepeeist or at least try to be, cheeky sod :moon:

bare legs make great targets:grin:

Moose
-2nd June 2003, 14:21
Lol, well you have the psycological makeup of a sabreur :grin:

Hudson
-2nd June 2003, 14:22
well sabre is my second weapon. only wish i could do both at more comps.:grin:

Moose
-2nd June 2003, 14:24
Just use your epee like a sabre, that'll scare em :grin:

Hudson
-2nd June 2003, 14:31
i use my sabre like an epee that confusess people.

Moose
-2nd June 2003, 14:34
Flicking with a sabre is fun :grin:

Hudson
-2nd June 2003, 14:39
taking there blade though a nice big circle is great fun.

<attack, take blade, circle, circle, circle, hit>

Moose
-2nd June 2003, 14:41
Then watch them catch you on the exposed wrist...

Hudson
-2nd June 2003, 14:43
ah but when it works it works well and they just stand there in schock and horror.

Moose
-2nd June 2003, 14:45
Hmmm, just beat and hit somewhere, the epeeist goes eh? whats this priority nonsense :grin:

Hudson
-2nd June 2003, 14:48
No epeeists go
"2 light double hit. What you mean his point i hit him first rant rant rant........."

Moose
-2nd June 2003, 14:49
Lol, epeeists are light and rule hounds...

Hudson
-2nd June 2003, 14:54
give me a bulb and a rule book and i'll be happy :grin:

Moose
-2nd June 2003, 14:56
Lol, typical <smashes the bulb and burns the book>?

Hudson
-2nd June 2003, 14:58
right i'll be demanding a check of your kit at the next comp. :grin:

Moose
-2nd June 2003, 15:00
Tis ALL regulation I think you'll find :grin:

Hudson
-2nd June 2003, 15:02
we shall see,

<puts dodge test equipment in bag>

Moose
-2nd June 2003, 15:05
What test?

Hudson
-2nd June 2003, 15:07
ruler for bend in blade, ohm meter for lame resistance and body wire checks.

ihunter
-4th June 2003, 20:27
Plastrons are in the rules guys & gals. A card is given each time someone appears in an 'A' grade without one, across the 3 weapons.

whizzkid1982
-5th June 2003, 12:04
yeah but htis doesn't mean we have to like them!!

Moose
-5th June 2003, 14:50
I dunno, I quite like my plastron, I find it quite comfy.

Hudson
-5th June 2003, 16:21
i like my plastron i call him Fred.

James
-5th June 2003, 16:30
does he call you "oh gracious owner"?:grin:
i get the worrying feelling that you're probably able to hold
a conversation with it:grin:

Hudson
-5th June 2003, 17:46
i get more sence out of Fred than we get out of moose here :grin:

Moose
-5th June 2003, 19:38
Lol, I worry about you at times... :grin:

Hudson
-5th June 2003, 20:12
you worry about me???!!!
well we all worry about you :grin:

Moose
-5th June 2003, 21:48
Well its good to know that someone cares :)

Muso440
-7th June 2003, 12:20
A plastron-related thought that occurred to me last night:

why don't the jackets just have some extra layers of material built into them?

whizzkid1982
-7th June 2003, 12:51
cos that might be sensible!!!

Mantis
-7th June 2003, 13:09
Just noticed a couple of days ago that my jacket (from Allstar) has a patch under the arm to cover over the seam. Never noticed that before.

As for why a whole plastron isn't always built in, I've no idea. Maybe because no one thought about it. :)

Moose
-7th June 2003, 14:54
Maybe because there are different designs of plastrons to suit different people, full chest, half chest, full arm, half arm, etc.

Muso440
-7th June 2003, 15:57
Originally posted by Moose
Maybe because there are different designs of plastrons to suit different people, full chest, half chest, full arm, half arm, etc.

But you could still have different jackets with those different options?

Hm, maybe i should have kept quiet - I could go and sell this idea to Leon Paul for lots of money. :tongue:

bydande
-7th June 2003, 16:04
Mantis,
regarding your jacket
It is FIE regulation that jackets should have a double layer of material on the flank and on the sword arm sleeve down to the elbow. My daughter used to have an Allstar Lyon jacket which although it was not an FIE jacket did have a small patch of extra material on the flank and the underside of the sword arm - I always took them to be a gesture towards the FIE regulation.

Moose
-7th June 2003, 16:12
Do regulations not require a plastron even if a jacket/plastron is used?

Cos the new rules only show the jacket/plastron combo as being legal for steam foil and size <3 blades.

Muso440
-7th June 2003, 16:15
Do regulations not require a plastron even if a jacket/plastron is used?
Cos the new rules only show the jacket/plastron combo as being legal for steam foil and size <3 blades.

But what is the difference? Why is a jacket/plastron combo less effective than a separate plastron? :confused:

pinkelephant
-7th June 2003, 19:52
This one is interesting - the new regulation is contradictory. The new BFA regulation first specifies that the plastron MUST NOT BE ATTACHED TO THE JACKET IN ANY WAY. The bit about steam foil/size 3 foil refers to a 350N plastron rather than a 800N one. There still has to be a separate plastron and jacket. However, it then goes on to refer to a combination.:confused:

Mantis
-7th June 2003, 21:08
Originally posted by Moose
Do regulations not require a plastron even if a jacket/plastron is used?

I believe that at national level you can use a 350N jacket and plastron OR just a 800N jacket. I assume that at international level you need 800N for both.

Moose
-7th June 2003, 21:38
As of now you need 800N plastrons for elite or British Championships.

As of 2006 you MUST wear and 800N plastron for all fencing (apart from the size 3 weapon and size 5 steam foil exemtions at which you can wear 350 Jacket 350 Plastron, 350 Jacket/Plastron Combo, 800N Jacket, all with 350N mask), for normal fencing 350N Jacket and 800N plastron is required as well as 350N breeches and 350N mask, for FIE A Grades you need 800N Jacket, Breeches and Plastron, you also need a 1600N mask.

Hope that clears the rules up a bit :)

Boo Boo
-7th June 2003, 22:22
Moose, are you SURE that you need a 800N plastron for the British Championships (Elite Open competitions nolonger exist)?

First I have heard about it. Doesn't affect me (since I use a 800N plastron anyway), but would guess that it would affect quite a few...

Are refs going to start checking clothing to enforce these requirements (plastron/CEN) at Opens?

Reminds me of a terrifying moment a few weeks ago when a ref asked to check my plastron. As I unzipped my collar, I realised with absolute terror that I had forgotten to put it on... Fortunately the ref thought that she saw my pastron... said "ok", so I zipped my jacket back up and fenced... close one, eeek! :confused:

Boo

Moose
-7th June 2003, 22:24
From the BFA


800 Newton plastrons will be required for elite (as defined by the International Committee) and British Championships (those events open to Over 16 year olds, excluding the British Intermediate Foil Championships) as of 1 January 2003.

Thats what it says anyway.

Boo Boo
-7th June 2003, 22:33
Thanks Moose, found it - http://www.britishfencing.com/safetystandards.htm

Hhhmmm, didn't realise that at all...

Is this going to be enforced refs/BFA people? Can imagine a few problems if it is...

Boo

Moose
-7th June 2003, 22:36
Haven't a clue Boo, I've only really picked up on it because our club is having to shell out thousands to get our kit up to spec for 2006. Steam foil is no problem as you can wear any old trousers, but the epee and sabre newbies will now need 350N breeches, which tbh is a real pain in the arse.

Boo Boo
-7th June 2003, 22:45
A good reason to start them all off on foil. Once they have done it for a while (5 or so years ;) ), they can buy their own kit and move on to the weapons if they choose... ;)

Boo

Moose
-7th June 2003, 23:16
If we did that then we wouldnt have any BUSA teams :grin:

I've built up a nice corps of sabruers within the club, tho I spent 1 year as one of only 2 sabreuers in the club, hence why I have so many bad habits, I learned sabre by learning how to beat one person.

Rdb811
-7th June 2003, 23:23
The plastron gets caked in sweat - I use one a day in competions and also protects the jacket from sweat- I suspect a built-in plastron would feel heavy in practise.

ChubbyHubby
-8th June 2003, 00:26
Oops, sorry. Wrong thread...

Muso440
-8th June 2003, 09:38
Originally posted by Rdb811
- I suspect a built-in plastron would feel heavy in practise.

Is this the only reason? Would it *really* make that much difference? I'm still not convinced.

And, I might have got the wrong end of the stick here, but is a plastron *not* required for steam foil, only for electric? Which seems rather illogical too.

Who makes up these rules anyway?!

Rdb811
-8th June 2003, 16:54
With a sepaate plastron, the plastron is stuck to the body - I suspect with a built-in one you would have three or four layers of cloth moving around on the sleeve.

The rules are a combiantion of teh fIE and BFA. Plastrons ARE required for steam foil.

Moose
-8th June 2003, 18:24
At steam foil you need:

A 350N Jacket and 350N Pastron, OR
A 350N Jacket/Plastorn Combo, OR
A 800N Jacket

This is as of 2006

Also the steam foils used must be true steam foils and not electric blades that have had a button stuck on the end.

Muso440
-9th June 2003, 08:28
Originally posted by Rdb811
With a sepaate plastron, the plastron is stuck to the body - I suspect with a built-in one you would have three or four layers of cloth moving around on the sleeve.

Does that matter? What difference does it make? I thought the idea was that the seams were all in different places, or am I just being dim?

pinkelephant
-9th June 2003, 08:41
Originally posted by Boo Boo
Thanks Moose, found it - http://www.britishfencing.com/safetystandards.htm

Hhhmmm, didn't realise that at all...

Is this going to be enforced refs/BFA people? Can imagine a few problems if it is...

Boo

It WAS enforced at the BYC at U18 level, and referees WERE checking.

Boo Boo
-9th June 2003, 09:04
Hhhmmm, trying to remember if I refereed any U18s, don't think I did (just U16s, down)...

Don't remember that at all, still was a LOOONG time ago (and my memory is proving not to be too good at the moment - NIFs, pastrons, what next... :( ).

Boo

Moose
-9th June 2003, 15:10
Maybe you'll forget where you left hubby :grin:

Boo Boo
-9th June 2003, 15:15
That's okay, I got "This ChubbyHubby belongs to BooBoo, please return if found" imprinted on his forehead (just below the huge impression of my thumb print on his head...). :grin:

Boo
(about to pack Chubby off to Chicago in 5 hours time...)

Moose
-9th June 2003, 15:42
LOL, he's learned rule number one then: Don't argue with your wife cos you can never win :)

Marcos
-4th July 2003, 11:29
yup - I got the same advice from my Dad the day of my wedding - particularly applies to buying sofa's...

Just noticed this thread - I have always assumed that everyone wears plastrons the whole time...next time I am presiding I am checking!

seems madness to not wear one - you get used to them quickly.

I personally have broken a foil blade and seen it go through a mate's jacket - luckily missing his body tho by a cm or so. I was 15 and a begginer, which given you are using club equipment and have not got the hang of distance, is probably when an accident is likely to happen.

A plastron is the first thing to buy along with a glove.