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Biggles
-31st October 2004, 17:22
I was looking at the November MF rankings and noticed something odd. I always check to see how our club members are doing and noticed that Richard Barnes-Webb had moved up to 57 from 129...which would be great news for him!

Then I noticed that he was shown as having placed third at Leicester, where I am pretty sure he didn't compete.

It looks like Michael Barnett placed third along with Stephen Glaister, but didn't get points. It looks like Richard got Michael's points.

Maybe someone with more brain cells than my two could check this out.

If I'm off base here I apologise, but it looks pretty clear to me that there has been an error.

vil
-31st October 2004, 20:24
I'd suggest you contact the rankings coordinator (Graham Paul?) and maybe the organisers of Leicester directly if you think there's been an error.

I notice they've also used the new points calculation for Shropshire, even though that was before the date the changes were supposed to take effect from. I'm not complainaing, mind: I think it actually makes more sense to have them cover the whole season rather than "the whole season except for a few competitions at the start of it". Plus my own ranking has benefitted quite a bit from it. :grin:

Biggles
-31st October 2004, 20:35
I don't think it's a Leicester error, I think "Barnett" and "Barnes-Webb" got mixed up somewhere. I've emailed the foil committee people now.

The obvious beneficiary would be Barnett, but it might also have an effect on those of us just below.

That is if I have my facts straight...:confused:

foilerist
-31st October 2004, 21:10
does anybody know if the ashton open counts for ranking points?
I made my first l8 and would hate to see it go to waste.

Robert
-31st October 2004, 21:36
Originally posted by foilerist
does anybody know if the ashton open counts for ranking points?
I made my first l8 and would hate to see it go to waste.

They haven't got the results yet. If you know any of the Ashton people try badgering them to send the results in to the BFA. The foil co-ordinators are quite generous and will forgive them being late. Rather like they have been rather generous on interpreting the new NIF rules.

Robert

Boo Boo
-31st October 2004, 22:36
Hey, at least your ranking list has been updated...

Boo
(still waiting, even more impatiently than normal, for WF rankings to be updated... :upset: )

Insipiens
-1st November 2004, 09:12
Does that mean particularly good results in October?

Boo Boo
-1st November 2004, 09:21
Originally posted by Insipiens
Does that mean particularly good results in October?

No, it more likely means that other people had less profitable Octobers... :o:

Boo

Insipiens
-1st November 2004, 11:34
Maybe the points are being spread out more by the new timings? (hehe every thread is brought back to the same subject).

I don't think that would work for men's foil, the total points people have just seems to be going up (presumably just because of higher NIFs).

Robert
-1st November 2004, 11:45
Originally posted by Insipiens
... for men's foil, the total points people have just seems to be going up (presumably just because of higher NIFs).

True. All 6 of the competitions I have been to this season have had higher NIFs than last year, and while my points have risen 23% (sounds better than 20 points) I have actually dropped seven places in the rankings.

Thanks to the new rules the points at the bottom end of the scale are going to go up 4 to 5 times.

Robert

vil
-1st November 2004, 12:03
Originally posted by Robert
Thanks to the new rules the points at the bottom end of the scale are going to go up 4 to 5 times.

Which means that the middle-to-lower end of the rankings will take a while to settle back down into a true reflection of peoples ability. At the moment it's biased against people relying on results from last season. I suspect we'll see a gradual shake-out over the course of the season, as more and more of those old points expire.

Interestingly, the opposite is true at the top end of the rankings. The NIF of stronger opens will be 1 less than last season, so equivalent results from those are worth slightly fewer points. I doubt that'll make any noticeable difference though.

Dave Hillier
-1st November 2004, 12:14
ahhh, I wondered why my (all be it crap) foil ranking had dropped by thirty for no readily apparent reason.

Touché Turtle
-1st November 2004, 12:15
Can someone please tell me what exactly the new rules for rankings / NIF are? I've seen them alluded to on a couple of different threads, but can't find out exactly what's going on!
What have I missed!!!

Insipiens
-1st November 2004, 12:25
Touché, try this link
http://www.foilcommittee.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/international-rules/senior-sel-04-05-9-10-04-ver3.htm (http://)

Robert
-1st November 2004, 12:40
Originally posted by Touche Turtle
Can someone please tell me what exactly the new rules for rankings / NIF are? I've seen them alluded to on a couple of different threads, but can't find out exactly what's going on!
What have I missed!!!

The NIF is calculated almost exactly as before. BUT there is a minimum NIF of 1/4 of the fencers present. So if there are 60 people fencing, but no-one from the top 50 that would have been a NIF of 1, but now it gets the minimum NIF of 60/4 = 15.

What this means is that the The Irish Opens, Shropshire, Ashton, Wrexham, Nottingham, Merseyside, York, Plymouth, Hereford & Worcester, and some of the Scottish Opens (did I miss any?), will give between 3 and 10 times as many points as they did before.

This has a number of effects (thinking mostly about M Foil and M Epee):

1, The lower end of the rankings will be mixed up a bit for the next 12 months.
2, It slightly over-rates a lot of these opens, so expect to see a lot of people 200-400 in the rankings move into the 100-200 bracket (and vice-versa). And possibly 51-150 fencers may travel to attend some of these.
3, It means that the ratio of NIF between the top competitions and the bottom has narrowed (narrowed a lot in M Epee, less so in the other weapons). So that a L4 (14-20 * 20 = 280-400pts) at a small comp (Shropshire/Merseyside) is now better than a L64 (1.4 - 2 * 100 = 140pts-200pts) at a big comp (Bristol/Essex).

Robert

Touché Turtle
-1st November 2004, 13:43
Thanks for the help guys.
Now all I need to do is work out if this is good or bad for my ranking!!! :confused:

Robert
-1st November 2004, 14:27
Originally posted by Touche Turtle
Thanks for the help guys.
Now all I need to do is work out if this is good or bad for my ranking!!! :confused:

If you do M Foil go to

http://www.kushan.org/fencing/NewRankingRules.htm

The chart shows the October rankings recalculated using the new Ranking rules.

Robert

Tarmac
-1st November 2004, 14:30
At least the rankings are up...
still waiting for the epee results from september to go up!!

Insipiens
-1st November 2004, 14:42
Originally posted by Robert
If you do M Foil go to

http://www.kushan.org/fencing/NewRankingRules.htm

The chart shows the October rankings recalculated using the new Ranking rules.

Robert
Robert, have you been through all the results and worked out new points for each fencer at about 7 competitions, and then checked that each fencer has not changed which are his best scoring competitions and then re-ordered them according to the new criteria for competitions back in January it is never going to be applied to?:dizzy:
People will begin to suspect you are mad;) :rolleyes:

Insipiens
-1st November 2004, 14:45
Oh, and to be pedantic, how can the top 15 not change and then position 16 go down one? (I know, it is because of Matt MacKenzie's "international" placing :) - just showing you I had read it ;))

Biggles
-1st November 2004, 14:59
Originally posted by Insipiens
People will begin to suspect you are mad;) :rolleyes:


Errmm...suspect?? :confused: I think we may be long past the "suspicion" phase and well into "knowledge"! :tongue:

Robert
-1st November 2004, 15:33
Originally posted by Insipiens
Oh, and to be pedantic, how can the top 15 not change and then position 16 go down one? (I know, it is because of Matt MacKenzie's "international" placing :) - just showing you I had read it ;))

Nice to know my effort is appreciated. Actually there are two drops, because I didn't correct for Taddei or MacKenzie, who don't actually take up a place in the original rankings.

And yes, I corrected so each fencer is only counting 6 comps.
(There are only actually a small number of fencers who have more than 6 comps, about 50 or so as I recall).

Robert

Touché Turtle
-1st November 2004, 15:45
Originally posted by Robert
If you do M Foil go to

http://www.kushan.org/fencing/NewRankingRules.htm

The chart shows the October rankings recalculated using the new Ranking rules.


I'm a girlie!! Actually do W Foil, just reading this thread to be nosy! Thanks anyway.

Insipiens
-1st November 2004, 16:15
Touché. there was another thread last month on the New NIF and its impact. But of course as all the nerdy people out there calculating their points and improvement week by week seem to be men (me never?:confused: :rolleyes: ) we probably didn't say anything about girlie rankings.

Robert
-1st November 2004, 17:08
Originally posted by Touche Turtle
I'm a girlie!! Actually do W Foil, just reading this thread to be nosy! Thanks anyway.

I've just looked and noone on the W Foil list has more than 6 results recorded, so I cannot do the same analysis for that listing.

Which again is one of the mildly irritating things. It would obviously be better for all the ranking lists to use a common format.

Robert