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Emma T
-4th November 2004, 11:42
This is more a query. After a very long (over 6 hours!) journey to a fencing match we were a little offended by the behaviour of our opponents during our BUSA match. Whilst we cheered for our side we only said things like "Nice one", "Come on you can do it" etc, whereas our opponents also added "Go on kill them" and "She's rubbish, you can thrash her". And during at least one bout one of their fencers persisted in having an unrelated conversation the whole way through with some one on the side of the piste. And in my last bout, which I lost, the fencer was too busy finding out how quickly she had won to bother to shake hands. We found this very disrespectful and were wondering what we should/could have done at the time to remedy this. We were very tired and this wasn't the behaviour we had expected!

UglyBug
-4th November 2004, 11:51
You can't do much about overenthusiastic cheering, but not shaking hands is an offence. Try speaking to your Athletic Union.

Boo Boo
-4th November 2004, 11:59
Originally posted by Emma T
"Go on kill them" and "She's rubbish, you can thrash her".

Are you sure that you were fencing the city's university team and not their U12 squad? All sounds a bit childish to me...

Boo

fitch
-4th November 2004, 12:14
Originally posted by UglyBug
You can't do much about overenthusiastic cheering, but not shaking hands is an offence. Try speaking to your Athletic Union.

my feelings are:

if they don't shake hands ("salute") at the end it's a black card, meaning "suspension for two competitions" - so you could hamper them for fielding a team for their next two matches (or, as the busa leage is one competition, perhaps 2 years of BUSA!!). Get your sports union to write to BUSA (if you have a copy of the match sheet and wrote the black card warning on it...)

but whatever happens it would be worth getting your sports union to write to their sports union to complain about unsportsmanlike behaviour.

talking on piste during a bout = "fencer disturbing order whilst on piste" = red card firsttime, then a black card.

also "any person not on piste disturbing good order" - first offence is a warning, second is expulsion from venue. so if you have a decent ref, the member of the team who is being unsportsmanlike or offensive could be removed from the room, and hence not be able to fence in teh remainder of teh match.

but both of these rely on a reasonable referee, preferably independent, as if you are refereeing between the team members then it will be your word against theirs and turn into a slagging match. Make sure you have an independent ref for the match against this team next year, even if you take one with you from another local club just in case.

Canis
-4th November 2004, 13:30
Originally posted by Emma T
This is more a query. After a very long (over 6 hours!) journey to a fencing match we were a little offended by the behaviour of our opponents during our BUSA match. Whilst we cheered for our side we only said things like "Nice one", "Come on you can do it" etc, whereas our opponents also added "Go on kill them" and "She's rubbish, you can thrash her". And during at least one bout one of their fencers persisted in having an unrelated conversation the whole way through with some one on the side of the piste. And in my last bout, which I lost, the fencer was too busy finding out how quickly she had won to bother to shake hands. We found this very disrespectful and were wondering what we should/could have done at the time to remedy this. We were very tired and this wasn't the behaviour we had expected!

I found when i was at uni (mid 90's) that usually Busa matches where friendly with beering with the oposition after the match being the norm- so while as captain i would frequently make comments like those above it would allways be visibly tongue in cheek. "He's rubbish - you can thrash him " works splendidly when you are fielding a virtual nubie up against someone with their name on their back!:grin: (and it also strangely gives your fencer a boost)


seriously though i you can't do much about the people on this planet with no manners. It will however give you something to chat about while doing post match drinks at your next BUSA match- " have you fenced xyz uni yet - bunch of arrogant *******!" , et cetera


:grin:

Saxon
-4th November 2004, 13:53
Originally posted by fitch

if they don't shake hands ("salute") at the end it's a black card, meaning "suspension for two competitions" - so you could hamper them for fielding a team for their next two matches (or, as the busa leage is one competition, perhaps 2 years of BUSA!!). Get your sports union to write to BUSA (if you have a copy of the match sheet and wrote the black card warning on it...)


Slow down - it's refusal to salute, and they can't refuse if you don't ask.

And I doubt the BUSAs are an FIE competition. The exact penalty in such a case is down to the BFA disciplinary tribunal?



but whatever happens it would be worth getting your sports union to write to their sports union to complain about unsportsmanlike behaviour.

talking on piste during a bout = "fencer disturbing order whilst on piste" = red card firsttime, then a black card.

You already have them on unsportsmanlike behaviour anyway


also "any person not on piste disturbing good order" - first offence is a warning, second is expulsion from venue. so if you have a decent ref, the member of the team who is being unsportsmanlike or offensive could be removed from the room, and hence not be able to fence in teh remainder of teh match.

BUSA match does not often equal decent ref. In fact if I recall, BUSA match doesn't always even equal ref-who-knows-the-weapon-they're-reffing

Basically, it's a complaint to their AU, which will probably get you nowhere - I'd just ignore it, and don't take them out for beers next time they visit you.

telkanuru
-4th November 2004, 17:50
There is a fine line between poor sportsmanship and cheering. The refusal to shake hands crossed that line. I must confess to regularly cheering on my teammates by yelling "Carpe his/her jugulum!" Of course, this is obviously humorous, and not the same as "Kill 'em", but words are, well, words.

Emma T
-4th November 2004, 18:33
Thanks. I wasn't sure about the cheering, but I know its difficult to define when it goes too far. There didn't seem to be much joking about it as the two teams made no real attempt to talk except about necessary fencing things (as much our fault as theirs), but I know its difficult to tell! The worst thing was the fencer chatting the whole way through a bout, as it showed so little respect. And I think I might have been misunderstood on the shaking hands thing-she did eventually shake, but only after I had waited for some time and prompted her a couple of times, whilst she performed victory celebrations.

At least we know what to do next time! And luckily our league is so small that we get to meet everyone twice so we'll meet them again in a few weeks, with a full team and far less tired!

Flemily
-4th November 2004, 19:30
well thank you, at least you seem to be reporting a little more of the story now. As a member of the club at that particular match i think it would be wise to remind you a of a few other rules. Shall I mention the problems of the faulty kit? Coming to piste with broken kit and insisting on still playing with that kit?? Until a prompt from the presisdent to replace it?

Exeter you are not the only team that has to make long journeys to matches, but you are the first team that I have come into contact with that has been so unsportsman like and has refused to join in with the atmosphere of a match.

I agree with the comments made previously about there being a thin line between cheering on your team mates and taking it too far, and i think you have made an over reaction.

BUSA matches are a time for different universities to come together and have a good time whilst enjoying the sports that they have in common. We all have to travel long distances and we all have to cope with team members not being able to play particular matches, its part of the game. However we do all go along to our matches with good intentions of meeting new people and learning new aspects of our sports.

We all also make exceptions for inexperienced fencers that clearly dont have the experience of the competitions that some others may do. This was the case when a fencer from our oppositin 'forgot' to shake hands on at least 2 occasions. Might I also remind you that at the end of the match when the captain offered her hand to your team for a good match, it is polite to reciprocate it and also to participate in the three cheers?? Perhaps you ought to think carefully at the end of a match about just what the opposion has let pass before you complain about them.

We take fencing and its etiquette very seriously and am frankly shocked at these accusations. I really don't see the point in this turning into a silly banter but if official lines need to be taken they will.

fitch
-4th November 2004, 19:41
Originally posted by Saxon
Slow down

sorry, was trying to give "worst case" not necessarily the correct response to the actual events (what with not havinfg been there or anything)

also, got some things wrong, one fencer not saluting is only a hit anulled (for the pedants out there) or something like that.

Emma T
-4th November 2004, 22:53
Originally posted by Flemily
well thank you, at least you seem to be reporting a little more of the story now.

<Please also note that I hadn't mentioned any names and so unless people were determined it was unlikely that they would know who you were, and I was giving a brief overview, not an in depth report.>

As a member of the club at that particular match i think it would be wise to remind you a of a few other rules. Shall I mention the problems of the faulty kit? Coming to piste with broken kit and insisting on still playing with that kit?? Until a prompt from the presisdent to replace it?

<This was me. And for the record I asked the president if I should change it and he said no. To my mind this is the correct thing to do and as a less experienced fencer I trust the judgment of the president. Everyone has kit troubles from time to time.>

Exeter you are not the only team that has to make long journeys to matches, but you are the first team that I have come into contact with that has been so unsportsman like and has refused to join in with the atmosphere of a match.

<Huh?! We refused?! When?! We had to run off the end sure-but we needed to catch our train back and it was the last one we could catch!>

I agree with the comments made previously about there being a thin line between cheering on your team mates and taking it too far, and i think you have made an over reaction.

<I have already said I was unsure about this, but your comments were a little over the top and at times very unsuitable.>

BUSA matches are a time for different universities to come together and have a good time whilst enjoying the sports that they have in common. We all have to travel long distances and we all have to cope with team members not being able to play particular matches, its part of the game. However we do all go along to our matches with good intentions of meeting new people and learning new aspects of our sports.

<As do we, infact we have had 2 good, fun matches so far and hope to have many others!>

We all also make exceptions for inexperienced fencers that clearly dont have the experience of the competitions that some others may do. This was the case when a fencer from our oppositin 'forgot' to shake hands on at least 2 occasions. Might I also remind you that at the end of the match when the captain offered her hand to your team for a good match, it is polite to reciprocate it and also to participate in the three cheers?? Perhaps you ought to think carefully at the end of a match about just what the opposion has let pass before you complain about them.

<She was inexperienced and forgot, as happened once or twice on your side. The point I was making was that she seemed to be more interested in seeing whether she had won the bet (in itself a little inappropriate-at least to be so brazen and obvious about it!) than finishing the match correctly. As for the three cheers, we did forget, and for that we are sorry. But our captain is Taiwanese and gets embarrassed about shouting out in English, as I'm sure you'll appreciate the room was very noisy by that point. It isn't the best excuse I know, but we are sorry about it.>

We take fencing and its etiquette very seriously and am frankly shocked at these accusations. I really don't see the point in this turning into a silly banter but if official lines need to be taken they will.

<I am sure you do, but there were a few things, especially holding a conversation whilst on the piste and fencing, that weren't acceptable! We aren't disputing the result, but we aren't going to accept that kind of behaviour again.>

I hope we get on well next time we fence, it is not my intention to make enemies, but we were offended and as an inexperienced fencer I did want to clarify the rules/expected and acceptable behaviour.

Emma T
-4th November 2004, 22:55
Ok, just in case that is a little muddled, I have written bits in the bold text as responses, and they are surrounded by <>. Sorry-bit technologically incompetent!

expent
-5th November 2004, 14:12
If someone is having a conversation about something else whilst fencing it can only be to their disadvantage as they aren't concentrating on where you are going to stab them next... if it happens again just focus harder and hit them more!

Incidently, when are you guys meeting again - could be a good event to spectate at... even better if you can find a ref who is quick to hand out cards...

Jambo
-5th November 2004, 16:12
Originally posted by expent

Incidently, when are you guys meeting again - could be a good event to spectate at... even better if you can find a ref who is quick to hand out cards...

I was just thinking the same thing! To add my twopenneth (sp??), as a somwhat longstanding BUSA fencer, several things occur to me:

1) BUSA has a lot of inexperienced people competing for the first time, we need to encourage not discourage people from our sport.

2) Handing out cards at a BUSA match is (unless you are independent) not feasible in my mind, it just doesnt work. I will tell people to calm down/shut up but I would have to be really pushed to get arsey enough to hand out cards.

3) Increasingly some teams are getting very "official" about BUSA, not the spirit in which I see the comp. I know of one or two allegations of unpleasantness already this season. Calm down, strict rule enforcement is for strict comps (depends on the rule of course).

4) If someone shouted "Kill him" or "He's rubbish" in reference to me it would just make me fence harder and better, if it does put you off ask them to stop.

Bee
-6th November 2004, 14:02
BUSA should be fun. I still don't understand the whole obsession with winning BUSA. My team went along last year to have fun and got promoted to premiership, this year we seem to be doing ok, but we still go along with the idea of having a laugh and doing what we love (apart from when I get forced to do epee - apologies to Nottingham I hold everything like a sabre :)).

I find "excuse me I think we're supposed to shake hands now" works wonders if anyone forgets - if not just stand in the middle of the piste the ref should call them back.

I've found fencing to be refreshingly friendly (after spending 6 years as a rower) and I think all team captains should encourage good manners. It really helps, last year at BUSA individuals I was really lost, but found it quite easy to chat with some people I'd met through BUSA.

Last point shouts of kill etc should usually be taken in the manner in which they are meant - as a joke. If the calls bug you it's very easy to have a quiet word with the opponent and ask them not to do it - most of us are reasonable.

Emma T
-6th November 2004, 15:51
I wasn't fussed as to whether or not we won the match, as I have already said we always go along with the intention of having fun! I was just clarifying what we could do if some of these things got to us again. I think people are putting too much emphasis on the cheers (maybe my fault...), the main thing that irritated us was the conversation held on the piste.

I don't intend on seeming moany, but these things did stop us enjoying the match as much as previous ones, which did seem to detract from the whole spirit of BUSA matches.

Inexperienced fencers should be encouraged at BUSA matches, after all, we all have to start somewhere, and not insulted by the attitude of the opposition! Hopefully this was a misunderstanding this time and next time we shall get on well!

Banjo
-22nd November 2004, 15:47
I agree with those who believe that BUSA should fun and not too serious. To this end I would verbally remind fencers and spectators of the rules as and when they break them and only worry about cards for exceptionally serious or repeated offences. As previously mentioned, many fencers are beginners and don't know the rules. Mention it to them and they'll usually apologise and not do it again.

nutz
-24th November 2004, 21:26
Here is neither the time nor place for gossip about other clubs, especially when there may be misunderstandings involved and often only a one-sided story.

I find some of the remarks you have made irresponsible and upsetting and am dissappointed that you have made this public before first conversing with us.

The team, of which i am part of, has never peviously received any complaints from your team or anybody else and if you have any matters that you would like to discuss, I would urge you to contact the club where we will sort out any discrepancies.

I hope that this will now be the end to this thread

Emma T
-25th November 2004, 07:16
I never mentioned your club! And as beginners we didn't know where we stood, I was actually asking what the rules were, not trying to gossip!

But I agree, now the questions have been answered this should be the end of the thread.

Nick_C
-25th November 2004, 14:13
No, no THIS is the end of the thread !!

expent
-25th November 2004, 14:18
I wonder if you could stop the general talking on piste but appealing to the referee under the rule about coaching whilst fencing? It's not specifically coaching, but in other sports the rule usually covers any outside assistance or communication, I'm not sure how general the fencing rule is though. I see that the rule book is now downloadable from the BFA web site, I guess the answer would be in there.

fitch
-26th November 2004, 09:08
I am the end of the thread, and so's my wife

gbm
-26th November 2004, 17:07
:endworld: :stop: :endworld: :stop: :endworld: :stop: :endworld: :stop:

Randathamane
-10th December 2004, 13:17
.....our opponents also added "Go on kill them" and "She's rubbish, you can thrash her".

This is nothing but Bad form! This kind of behaviour is pittifull at best. They may have beaten you in points, but you walked away the better fencer!

This may offer some condolance..... Failing that i sugest that you write to their coach and see what he has to say about this. Remind him of those lovely little black card rules and dis-qualification penilties.

gbm
-10th December 2004, 13:21
Originally posted by goodbadandme
:endworld: :stop: :endworld: :stop: :endworld: :stop: :endworld: :stop: