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Maxim
-11th November 2004, 17:27
I've heard number of people complaining about slippery floor at some of the match venues. Last week we have encountered one at Brunel. From my point of view it is not safe to fence on such a floor, and I myself picked up a minor injury at the match. Does anyone know whether there is anything in the rules concerning this issue? Any suggestions.

Kepster
-11th November 2004, 22:27
Only thing I can find in the rules at first glance is article t.11 "The field of play should have an even surface. It should give neither advantage nor disadvantage to either of teh two fencers concerned, especially as regards light."

So nothing specifically about a slippery floor in that anyway. As far as BUSA matches are concerned, if you have a particular complaint like that your Captain should complete a "Playing under Protest" form before the match, which the opposing Captain cannot refuse to sign. This will at least let BUSA know of your opinion, although it is unlikely any action will be taken unless something drastic occured.

fencingmaster
-12th November 2004, 07:27
This is not in the rules, but is a health & safety issue.
Refer to the BFAs safety guidlines 2004:-

"....5. Premises:
The following requirements relate to the premises used by fencers and to the fencing area:
a) The fencing area should be such that fencers performing all normal fencing movements, however fast, are not in danger of slipping. ...."

"......a) Club officers, instructors and competition organising committees have responsibility for ensuring that the accident prevention precautions in respect of premises are observed. They should also ensure as far as practicable that individual fencers observe their own accident prevention responsibilities, and that the rules to prevent accidents during lessons are observed......"

kold_karma
-15th November 2004, 17:13
My appoligies for the rant (and the spelling) in advance...

Brunel's main campus was built for 4,000 students in 1967, it now has about 13,000... and because of this is currently upgrading its sports center (during 2004-2005) (an increase in size of about 600%). In the mean time its students (and union) are force to share 2 small halls not designed for every sport under the sun. This is obviously not what we want, and its not the best for our opponents....I hope others will be more understanding.

Of course we train their every week...but I guess its too slippery for delicate little doe's.....I am SO sorry.

Never-the-less I think this thread is a bit harsh coming from a university of UL's size and age. ULU won the event convincingly (never mentioning the injury), we gave them 3 cheers, and I thought that was that.

But, now that we are busy moaning about each other, I'd like to let other Universities know that ULU were arrogant, loud, and mostly boarish in their behaviour. They are a university/union of 115,000 students, and if this does not lead to success in every sporting event they enter, then I question their testicular fortitude.

Also, let it be known that I fenced (beginer foil) when I was 17/18 for about 6 months, then came back to it a few weeks ago after a 7/8 year break (practically a newbie!)...I had 2 1 1/2 hr training sessions and then had to compete in that event in all 3 weapons......and even with ULU's team size (we had 4 they had 8), training time, facilities, and swaggar, I STILL won 2 of my 9 bouts (in 2 different weapons).

Rather embarising I would think.

Yoda mode: "given the time I had to prepair, fight as good you would not"

ULU, take a chill pill. The floor is not that bad.

J.

nirvana
-15th November 2004, 17:34
when your feet get slippery wipe the soles of your shoes against your scocks. Makes them black though.

Maxim
-15th November 2004, 19:55
Dear Brunel fencers,

The idea of the thread was not to offend you, but rather to get some information concerning the issue. I've heard people from different teams complaining about venues at different universities, and the only reason I used Brunel as an example was because it was the only one we have encountered. If I have offended your university in any way, I am sorry.

However, I find the lines you have written about our behaviour rather disappointing. I am not going to comment on any of these accusations. You have just embarassed yourself.

Concerning the team size, it was your own fault . You can not blame us for your misenterpretation of the rules.

I understand that you are not the club captain and treat this message as your personal view (not the view of the whole team/club), so we, by no means, will treat Brunel as our enemy.
Conserning the person who have posted the message (I believe it is Mr Jeremy Brown), I expect an apologie for the deliberate lies you have written about our team. Look forward to meeting you at the Individuals.

Maxim Izotov
ULU Team Captain.

kold_karma
-15th November 2004, 20:54
Maxim,

My name Is Jason MacVaugh. And yes, these are my views, not those of my team.

I only made a ONE sentance comment (as anyone can see above) about your team, the rest was an account of my performance at the event and some details about our club.

My one sentance read that your team was for the most part "arrogant, loud, and mostly boarish". While this is hardly an agressive set of comments, I am prepaired to defend them as they are most certainly NOT lies.

Arrogant: Taking the time to twice describe why YOUR opinion of a series of points is 'correct' several minutes after the points were concieded and the bout over...even after I said I agreed with you (even with a smile!) and that I was fine with the end result. Why go into it? That's arrogance.

Loud: Shouting Gooooon and other random comments at a very high level, from off pieste, on every point during a saber match which was one of only two I personaly did well in...which sounded more like a football match then a fencing contest. We were behind by tens of points...why not be more low-key? Thats loud.

Boarish: Repeating 2 times who was next from my university to go on the pieste when you knew full well that we had to change body wires as 2 of us had to compete in all 3 events (requiring a wire change). Why give us a hard time? Thats boarish.

Do you deny these things happened?

If none of the above happened, I will appologies to your whole team, in person, riding a donkey, at BUSA.

All of this is a shame as at least one if not two of your members were very keen to say hello, make friends, and ask about our new club. The tall saber bloke was esp. cool.

I also look forward to BUSA, but I feel no agressive intent, I just want to have fun. I wont do as well as you, but I hope the people I meet at my first tournament find me upbeat, respectful, and friendly.

Jason.

Maxim
-15th November 2004, 21:18
Jason,

I consider the things you have listed normal and very common for a fencing match. I was actually trying to be helpful when explaining my decisions, by no means arrogant. People at my club find it useful when a more experienced fencer explains the rules to them, maybe it is different in your case.

Repeating 2 times who should fence next is also quite common. At least that is something you do when a fencer doesn't show up on the piste and there is no signs of anyone planning to go on (at least that's what I saw).

As for being loud, there is nothing wrong with supporting your teammates. We did not shout anything offensive, so I think there is nothing wrong with this either.

I will take this arguement no further as I think it is quite pointless and off the thread topic.

Maxim Izotov
ULU Team Captain

Neo
-15th November 2004, 21:22
Originally posted by kold_karma
The tall saber bloke was esp. cool.

That would probably be mirko...

Foilling Around
-15th November 2004, 21:39
Can you Studenty types stop using the forum for personal insults. If you keep this up someone will end up getting taken to court for libel and get us shut down!

This is the second thread recently which has ended up with toys being thrown out of the pram.

Please cut it out or some of us with a bit more maturity will have to consider how we take the matter further through the forum moderators or even the UAU.

It is a sport people, if you can't compete hard, enjoy it and remain friends, go and play football instead!!

gbm
-15th November 2004, 21:41
Keep a damp rag on the floor. Wipe your feet with it. Then you will stick.

You should see the floor sometimes at one of my clubs... you'd think they never wash it! (which they probably don't :confused: )

Goldilocks
-15th November 2004, 21:48
Jason,

Presidents are not required to explain their judgements even if you disagree with their decisions. The fact that Maxim took a moment to explain a decision whch you felt agrieved about can be described as a courtesy, not arrogance, but its down to your interpretation. If you were unhappy with his presiding that's another matter and you should have asked for a change of president.

I am President of the University of London fencing club and do not recall any of my fencers making the kind of comments you have attributed to them, although I do remember us cheering each other on with shouts of "Come on", "concentrate" and such. Our club have a good reputation of being friendly and sociable, but if you felt any of us were behaving unprofessionally you should have spoken to me or someone else at the time and we would have put a stop to it immediately. What is unprofessional is bringing up your apparent grievences in an agressive manner in an open forum weeks after the fact in response to a totally different inquiry.

As for our "boarish" behaviour calling your fencer to the piste twice, I do recall this incident. Frankly you had a few supporters there and it was difficult to tell who was getting ready, who was chatting and whether or not anyone had heard the first call. After our fencer had been stood for a while waiting I think its perfectly reasonable to call your fencer's name again to check you heard the first time. Either way I hardly see it as something to get upset about.

As for being friendly, we invited you and all your supporters back to your student bar for a drink afterwards. Sadly none of your supporters and only one of your 4 fencers came while all of our 6 (not 8 as you allege) came along.

Anyway, getting back to the original subject of this topic, slippery floors are something I have encountered at a number of matches and have heard complaints from a number of other fencers about . The issue was brought up again at our last committee meeting and I asked Maxim to find out if there was anything in the rules about it, hence this forum thread. This was not meant as an attack against you or your university, and I sympathise with your refurbishment problems. The issue has now been answered (thanx fencingmaster).

If we should meet again I hope you will bring any issues you find with our fencers to our attention at the time so they can be dealt with professionally. As it is I have no idea who may have been behaving unprofessionally and cannot do anything about it.

Best of luck with the rest of your league matches and at the individuals,

Sincerely,

Graham Miles,
President,
ULU Fencing Club

Neo
-15th November 2004, 22:45
Originally posted by Foilling Around
Can you Studenty types stop using the forum for personal insults. If you keep this up someone will end up getting taken to court for libel and get us shut down!

insults are NOT libel. (Not that I'm condoning or otherwise commenting on any insults on this thread or others)

Neo
-15th November 2004, 22:58
Originally posted by Goldilocks

Presidents are not required to explain their judgements even if you disagree with their decisions. The fact that Maxim took a moment to explain a decision whch you felt agrieved about can be described as a courtesy

actually they are.

see t42 of the rules, especially note 3 (The fencers may politely ask the referee for a more complete analysis of the fencing phrase)

I hate to say it, but Brunel aren't the only ones to have complained, though I can't comment on what actually happened as I haven't been at any matches merely what people have said to me. If someone did indeed shout 'goon' at an opposition fencer then that isn't exactly professional and doesn't reflect very well on the club... :(

Goldilocks
-15th November 2004, 23:25
I hate to say it, but Brunel aren't the only ones to have complained

Would you like to explain that please?

Neo
-15th November 2004, 23:37
Said to max in pm already - I fenced at Poly at Monday and not much fun to hear us described as coming across as arrogant and unfriendly in friendly. I wasn't there so I have no idea how it actually went, but whatever we're doing its not painting the club in a very good light.... :S

yong
-15th November 2004, 23:38
Well said Graham.

Unfortunately I wasn't there to witness the event, but I was quite shocked by Jason's post. This is the first time I've ever heard of a match opponent complain about our behaviour. During my 3 years fencing at ULU, we have always been treated with courtesy and appreciation (Gladly reciprocated) wherever we fenced, and made lots of beer buddies afterwards. It truly is a shame that Jason was upset with us for some reason, but please don't let that get in the way of enjoying our company the next time we meet. We really are very nice people, and quite dishy too (In the correct light). Perhaps we should host a friendly with Brunel to patch over any hard feelings.

Slippery floor at a match? Drinking less beer always helps. Maybe put down some beer mats on the piste. Or stick some sandpaper on the soles with a glue gun. :-)

Seriously, it's a health and safety issue. If it's too slippery, we might as well fence in the local Tesco's, then at least we can claim some compensation. I don't like doing the splits during my lunge or a corps-a-corps with a six foot sabreur any more than the next person. :-)


Yong

Neo
-15th November 2004, 23:42
Originally posted by yong

If it's too slippery, we might as well fence in the local Tesco's

That we should try... if only to see the bemused looks on the faces of shoppers :grin:

randomsabreur
-16th November 2004, 12:03
Oh come on

Part of the fun of doing BUSA matches is dealing with local conditions, i.e. rubbish floors, short piste, lack of referees. Fact of life, deal with it and get on with it. I doubt that the floor at any BUSA match is any worse than the floor at certain opens, and the match goes on for less time.

Before anyone decides that I don't know what I am talking about, I spent a 4 years as a member of university teams, fenced some matches on pistes about 10 metres long, and probably (knowing me) *****ed about it in the privacy of the team car or bus home.

I have also been known to effectively referee a match I am physically fighting in, by means of acknowledging the hit where I believe I have been hit, and basically only claiming clear 1 lights. The ref in the middle then only has to say play. This has happened where I have found myself to be the only sabreur in either team.

Also, given the varying comments/ criticisms about cheering etc, fencing is generally an individual sport, and so it is good to have a team atmosphere, which may or may not involve shouting stuff like "come on", "finish it off" and so on.

Incidentally any one who thinks that a BUSA match is partisan should go to a Varsity match between Oxford and Cambridge. At that match all kinds of anti-tab, anti-dark side insults are hurled, and afterwards, people will generally go down the pub, and have a "few" beers... and a meal and generally get rather sloshed...

Then, later in the year the 2 teams are combined for the match against ULU and we all get on fine. Also I fenced of Oxford 2nds in the varsity match and then fenced at the nationals in a team with two cambridge people, the current and previous oxford captains.

So getting back to my point, BUSA is by nature very partisan, and the team nature means that encouragement, and if there are old rivalries, insults to the opposition are part of the game, as much as the dodgy kit, passing the team's 2 sabre lames and one overlay between 3 fencers and general transport gripes, ALL OF WHICH WOULD BE SOLVED BY PUTTING BUSA TEAMS ON ONE WEEKEND - hint hint...

kingbob
-16th November 2004, 12:15
it shouldnt matter if the floor is slippery or not, it the same for both fencers.

pinkelephant
-16th November 2004, 13:00
It's not the same for both fencers. It's worse for the fencer with decent footwork. A static fencer will be affected very little.

Emma T
-16th November 2004, 13:03
Originally posted by Foilling Around
Can you Studenty types stop using the forum for personal insults. If you keep this up someone will end up getting taken to court for libel and get us shut down!

This is the second thread recently which has ended up with toys being thrown out of the pram.

Please cut it out or some of us with a bit more maturity will have to consider how we take the matter further through the forum moderators or even the UAU.

It is a sport people, if you can't compete hard, enjoy it and remain friends, go and play football instead!!

I agree, but before people go calling me a hypocrite it must be born in mind that a lot of university fencers (myself included) are comparative beginners and don't always know what is acceptable/what the exact rules. I never intended to insult anyone, but I did want to know what we could do/were allowed to do, and it seems like this is a similar case here.

It is often difficult not to be taken personally when you mention individual institutions so maybe there should be an anonymity rule as regards this kind of thing. But I do think people should be able to ask questions regarding any aspect of the rules, as that is one of the best ways to learn and improve, and often make sure you don't do the same things yourself.

Just my thoughts, not intending to insult anyone (being now a little paranoid!).

wingnutLP
-16th November 2004, 13:07
I have just seen this thread. Sorry it has taken me so long to spot it.

The slagging must stop.

I don't think that Maxim meant to have a go at anyone in his initial post about floors, perhaps he shouldn't have mentioned the name of the uni. The point is a valid one and if anyone wishes to discuss the issue of slippery floors feel free.

Anyone who continues to discuss the topic of who shouted what at who etc... will be warned and then banned.

Please respect the purpouses of this forum.

Foilling Around
-16th November 2004, 15:06
Thanx Wingnut

Maxim
-16th November 2004, 15:17
Thanks wingnut,

I did not intend for this discussion to go this way, I felt I needed to provide an example. Clearly that was a mistake. Once again I apologise to anyone who was offended by my initial thread.

I would like to ask people from my club to stop posting any messages on this forum which do not concern the original thread topic. I do not think discussing the club matters is appropriate for a public forum.

Maxim Izotov.

Aer
-16th November 2004, 15:18
Originally posted by randomsabreur
Oh come on

ALL OF WHICH WOULD BE SOLVED BY PUTTING BUSA TEAMS ON ONE WEEKEND - hint hint...

you mean like how we students of scottish uni's do it?

:rolleyes:


:tongue:

Neo
-16th November 2004, 18:02
Originally posted by Aer
you mean like how we students of scottish uni's do it?

with sheep? :grin:

Foilling Around
-16th November 2004, 18:42
No neo that's the Welsh!

gbm
-16th November 2004, 18:53
Our Uni has hosted at least BUSA matches where we've run out of time in our two hour slot, and been forced to move to a dim, fairly unlit nightclub...
The women were recently forced to continue a match in a law lecture theatre.
In one of the men's matches when I was there (but not fencing) after we had run out of time, the piste was marked out with some tape (hurriedly, it wasn't really straight!) in front of the bar.
The lighting mostly came from a floodlight over the centre of the piste that was pointed at one end of the piste...
At least the floor wasn't slippery ;)


I remember Richard Kruse had complained after he had injured himself at Barcelona prior to the Olympics because the floors weren't slippery enough (too jarring on the joints)...

kitten
-16th November 2004, 20:09
the piste was marked out with some tape (hurriedly, it wasn't really straight!) in front of the bar.

Now that doesn't sound like such a bad thing... ;-)

Was sorry to hear that you're Uni is still giving you two hour slots - that's crazy! You've got to wonder if they know anything about the sport when they do things like that.

For the record though - Lancaster is definately one of the most sporting Uni's I've been to - thank you :cheers2:

Cheetara
-18th November 2004, 20:36
Thank you, you were lovely to fence too.

The floor that we train on is very slippy, but if you get a wet rag to put your feet on it goes away (magic).

Also, surely if you only have a 2 hour slot you'll run over most weeks? Even when we lose a weapon 45-5 ish it takes 30 mins a weapon (about ish).