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kingkenny
-12th November 2004, 10:45
Hi please could people look at this preliminary calander and see if anything is wrong.
http://www.leonpaul.com/lpjs/lpjs.htm

Foilling Around
-12th November 2004, 11:53
Comments on the Foil page

1) Check the date of Bristol and Wrexham as the y are out of sequence.

2) Can you put in hyperlinks to entry forms. For example the Sherwood one is linked from the BFA website in pdf format.

3) As there are now 11 foil events do we need to increase the number of scoring events from 4 to 5?

General Suggestion

4) I suggested before a change to the points system to show a bigger difference between getting through a round

1st = 45
2nd = 40
3rd = 35
5th to 8th = 28 to 25
9th to 16th = 20 to 13
17th to 24th = 8 to 1

Any thoughts or comments?

tigger
-18th November 2004, 09:55
Please note everyone that the Cornwall Foil LPJS has moved to April 30th!

Baldric
-18th November 2004, 23:12
Originally posted by Foilling Around
As there are now 11 foil events do we need to increase the number of scoring events from 4 to 5?

General Suggestion

4) I suggested before a change to the points system to show a bigger difference between getting through a round

1st = 45
2nd = 40
3rd = 35
5th to 8th = 28 to 25
9th to 16th = 20 to 13
17th to 24th = 8 to 1

Any thoughts or comments?

A couple of thoughts.

Increasing the number of scoring events benefits the committed "travelling circus" fencer who is able to get to lots of comps.

In the boys U13, a scottish fencer tied for 1st place by winning all of the 4 comps that he entered. By increasing the number of scoring comps, you make it harder for fencers living in remoter parts of the country.

On the other hand, if you don't increase the number, the likelihood of a tied series increases.

I like the idea of making a bigger difference between places, and particularly between rounds. However there is another anomaly - the different strengths of the comps.

Baldric junior (miss) won the Ashton U13 this year with 3 of the final top 10 competing. She came second in Cambridge, with 9 of the final 10 competing.

Without doubt, the silver at Cambridge was the "better" result, but earned her less points. Do we need a LPJS NIF or perhaps copy the Premier Series "Grand Prix" concept? (Premier Series GP event attract 150% points)

Finally, we need a way to motivate the better U15 and U17 fencers to attend the LPJS. Once they pass the 13th birthday, the chase for Cadet ranking points is on, and the LPJS becomes a filler in the calendar- only attended if their is nothing else on, or if their coach happens to be involved in the organisation.

I understand that in weapons other than foil, there are cadet points to be earned at LPJS. Should foil take the same route?

wayofftarget
-19th November 2004, 08:43
Points systems are always a problem. I like the idea of better reward for getting through a round 8th is a much better result than 9th!

More points for larger/ higher standard events will have serious repercussions. In Scotland there are some good fencers who enter few LP events (ones in Scotland and maybe Durham). They would not rate highly in a Nif count based on LP ranking. I'm sure the same applies in other parts of the country (Cornwall for example).

Then there is the issue of Grand Prix events. How will this affect the non GP events? Even fewer entries?? A better idea might be to have a FINAL event for each weapon, with extra points available. But hold it somewhere sensible (ie no further south than Birmingham, no further north than Manchester and NOT IN NORWICH!!!!)

Finally the U15 and U17 problem. This is one for British Fencing.

As a coach I would like to see cadet points only available for age group events. I do not believe that it helps the development of good technical fencing to have 13 year olds forced to enter adult competitions to improve their cadet ranking. About 40% of the fencers in our Open events are relatively unskilled, but fast and strong, adults. Our best juniors learn that the way to get up the rankings is to learn to beat these limited fencers. This stunts their development as fencers at a most crucial time and may be part of the explanation for the fact that so few of our top junior fencers go on to be successful seniors at international level.

Foilling Around
-19th November 2004, 09:58
I personally don't think the idea of grading LPJS events is a good idea. The idea of a a grand final at some point may be of interest. Maybe the top 8 in the rankings at each weapon and age group over one weekend with big prizes. Difficult to fit into the callender.

The cadet problem is a big one. There needs to be a Cadet circuit which leads to Cadet selection. Sabre seem to be going down this road, and foil have the Bolton event, but there is no master plan.

At WF the 13/14year olds seem to be able to hold their own and develop in the WF, but power is less of a factor in the women's than the men's game and girls reach physical maturity earlier than boys.

The temptation to abandon agre group events for opens would be removed if the opens were not counted for selection at cadet level. This is the only way to manage entries, if that is the route chosen.

I still advocate the change to the points system to reward getting though an extra round.

Baldric
-20th November 2004, 08:55
Originally posted by wayofftarget

More points for larger/ higher standard events will have serious repercussions. In Scotland there are some good fencers who enter few LP events (ones in Scotland and maybe Durham). They would not rate highly in a Nif count based on LP ranking. I'm sure the same applies in other parts of the country (Cornwall for example).


I take your point, and at Cambridge I was talking to some parents from Scotland and the Isle of Man who struggle to get to as many comps as they would like.

However, exactly the same argument could be made in respect of the cadet, junior or senior ranking schemes.

No one pretends that winning the Isle of Wight Open is the same as winning the Essex, just because it easier for the Isle of Wight fencers to get there.

The LPJS provides different things to different kids. For most it is a chance to "have a bash" at a couple of proper competitions. It is only a handful in each age group/weapon who "do the series" and chase the ranking points.

On that subject, I often talk to parents and kids who come to a strong LPJS event as their first comp, and get disheartened because they they get thoroughly thrashed.

In some respects a strong LPJS can be a more disheartening comp than the BYCs for a less experienced fencer, because the proportion of good fencers to bunnies can be greater.

I wonder how many kids are lost to fencing because their coach encouraged them to enter, say Cambridge or Sherwood before they were ready for it?

Despite these musings, its still a great series (at least at u9, u11 and u13) and Baldric Junior has enjoyed it tremendously.